I know you need to see someone to target them with a direct combat spell like manabolt or power bolt. My question has to do with mana spells and full body armor. Lets say someone is in a full security body suit like Master Chief from Halo where you can't see anything of their actual body. Now power bolt should work just fine, but would a mana spell like manabolt work since you can't see their actual body?

Yes, Mana Bolt still works... Armor does not stop LOS for spellcasting purposes... You would need to be in an actual vehicle (among other things) for that...

Keep the Faith

The target being non-naked doesn't affect spell targeting, so yes, mana bolt works fine no matter how much of your skin is covered by your clothing.

IIRC, so long as the rules treat the "suit of armor" as clothes, than the wearer may be targeted by mana spells.

Once a "suit of armor" becomes large enough to be treated as a vehicle by the rules, then it would give the user the same protection a vehicle does (i.e. the user cannot be seen, and cannot be directly targeted by LOS spells)

Currently there exists no wearable armor that counts as a Vehicle, so that should not be a problem...

Keep the Faith

*has a sudden burning urge to construct a BattleMech in Shadowrun rules*

Please, Not that line of Discussion again...

Keep the Faith

You need Rigger 3 for that. Alas…

not really. it's actually not that hard with what we have.

well, i should say... it's not hard to make a roughly humanoid vehicle. i don't think there's anything that would properly compare to how tough and especially how large a battlemech is.

Oh, I meant that the old edition had car-sized+ walkers you could ride in, right? The new one has some jarhead walkers, but nothing that's an actual vehicle? Honestly, I haven't looked that closely. Certainly nothing *big* mech sized, though, in either one.

Everyone has been right so far. If you want the fluff excuse you are targeting peoples auras when you spell cast and not there physical form. Auras extend out far enough that you see them even when a person is in full armor.

So, if a character presses up against say for example a window, their aura could be seen? Have we ever come up with a silly fictional number for just how far out a aura extends to bypass armor?

Not trying to be obtuse, because besides I figure our fictional futuristic armor is looking to be thin/light weight and flexible anyways, even in its largest number form.

Wouldn't it be fun as a magic user to come up with fun ways to get characters to expose their aura when they thought they were safely behind aura related cover.

"How did they get him?"
"Not a clue, one second he is gazing out his window and the next he is dead."
"And the window checks out as secure?"
"Yeah, only his fingers prints were on it."

I'd say no. Why ? Because the armor is a part of your target's outfit - both of them can be viewed as a whole - while the windows he's pressing on lacks that connexion, it's a part of the building and not of the guard (unless you blast it and embed some shards in him but that's not the point ).

No, becasue unlike something worn, the window's aura is never closely enough subsumed under your own to become integrated under your own aural wholeness. Clothing, even thick armor plated "clothing", by nature of its prolonged and intimate contact with the wearer, becomes entangled with the wearer's aura to the point that they are effectively one. This is the same reason that clothing typically falls under the rules for "Oft-Handled Objects" under the sympathetic linking rules for ritual magic, while your window might, at best, count as a "Recently Handled Object" if someone stood against it long enough.

well, it has cars, and it has a modification that gives a vehicle legs. it's not much of a stretch to change that from "it has cars" to "it has car-sized vehicles with legs"

Yup the Patrol-1 + Walker mod is a good base for a tiny mech or with Cyborg adaptation for a Dreadnought. For an expensive but speedy mech, start with the Westwind.

Bigger (i.e. more BOD) Mechs are not possible to be modified by RAW. they could however be created by GM Fiat (not the two Car Companies )

After Avatar was over and we all were walking to our cars, 1 of us looked at each other and said "They have a lower tech level than Shadowrun."

The tin can mechs in Avatar are well within the available tech for 2070.

Haven't seen Avatar, so I can't comment on that.

They're not that much different than the APUs from Matrix Reloaded.

Only with less ammo capacity, I think.




-karma

And sealed canopies and big knives too. Also, only one gun and it's rifle-shaped. Otherwise, they're exactly the same. The funny thing is, I never even thought of the APUs, even though they both have acronyms that begin with A. I actually thought of the loaders from the Aliens movies that James Cameron also did.

Hmm, so lets go with what you are saying, which I am guessing comes from some other book than the BBB, like Street Magic or something, correct? Would that mean armor/clothing can block the aura if it is the first time that putz has thrown it on? Disposable clothing, like the cover-alls I remember wearing for site clean up, how does that factor into these things? How long is too long to stand beside an inanimate object in order for your aura to show up through it?

Guess that cardboard box thought of in past scenarios brought up of infiltration versus the strengths of astral perception isn't going to cut it any more, eh?

Yes, astral visibility is such that the aura extends a short distance beyond the body. Far enough that something like heavy armor or very bulky clothing won't hide it. It's actually explicitly stated in prior editions that this is the case, and IIRC restated in street magic.

So if someone were to lean against a very thin piece of plywood or a window. The aura would extend through... though there'd be a large astral visibility penalty provided by the astral shadow of the non-living material. (remember astral shadows are completely insubstantial).

Also remember mirrors and windows on the astral don't work (windows have an astral shadow just like a thin sheet of material). So while a mage sight system can provide normal vision LOS, you can't get astral perception through it either. (I've seen someone try to pull this one to cast spells from within an armored vehicle... okay you can see the battlefield... but you'll actually have to expose yourself to see the astral mage or spirit following you).

IMHO it is not a matter of time/thickness, but rather of use. Magic works with connexions, that's why a picture of someone can be used for ritual spellcasting (granted, it's far from easy but it is possible).

By wearing or carrying an item/a piece of cloth/whatever you create a connexion between you and it. The longer/more fequent the association is, the stronger the connexion and the longer it persists after you drop/remove the item, but it does not take time to establish.

Hiding behind something does not make this connexion - the window/plywood sheet/whatever while touched is not a part of your outfit but something definitievely separate.

It is how I explain that you can target a spell at a guard in full body armor with his faceplate down but not the same guard, unarmored, leaning against an armored door no thicker than the the armor no matter how long he stayed there, because in the first situation you target a whole package, a guard wearing armor and a sheild and not a guard behind an armor standing on it's own.

To sum things up : if you carry or wear something, it provides no obstruction to spell targeting (it still can impart visibility modifiers for exemple with camo or ruthenium polymers), obstruction to spells comes only with full cover.

It is actually much harder to hit a naked man with a direct damage spell. After all, "Clothes make the man."

So, if it the window of the house you have lived in for 20+ years, do you have a connection with that? By this reasoning, a person should be able to stand outside your house (within visual distance of it) and use it as a material link to you (though, hard, like you said). Boy, the real estate industry would love shadowrun magic to come into being!

This is probably the biggest problem I have with SR magic, by trying to get all cute they have made it so there are many holes. The aura thing is one of those holes. As far as I am concerned your aura is you, it doesn't extend beyond you. (Or, rather, the aura that extends isn't the part of the aura that can be targetted.) So, if the guy is in full body armor and his visor is mirrored (and when wouldn't it be?!?) you don't have line of sight to him. Aaaaawwwww, shucks! You have to use a physical spell, or summon a spirit, or whatever. That can be a big equalizer for meat against mana. Mages are hideously powerful in SR, so something that limits them somewhat (and makes them need the sammy with the panther cannon) is a good thing, imo.

Your aura extends not quite an inch outside your body when you're calm, a couple of inches when you're highly emotional. That's not Shadowrun canon, that's new-agey crap I was fed by an ex (no offense intended to anyone's spiritual beliefs except for those of Stacy). And yes, anything that has a highly emotional value to you is linked to your aura -- your grandfather's pocketwatch, your stuffed animal you still keep with you, that copy of <insert book> you've read several hundred times...even your house. I can't remember if there are 4e rules for it, but I believe it was State of the Art 2063 that had rules for Symbolic Links and Psychomancy and using normal objects that have a strong emotional attachment as ritual links. Or it may have just been in the core book or Magic in the Shadows...crap, I need to pull all my old books out again, I've forgotten so much...

Then every security force in existence would be in that armor with mirrored visors. I don't think the magic "fix" is making it impossible to cast everything but indirect combat spells on all the people you will be fighting.

That's not even the real problem, which was mentioned above: what about full-body *clothing*, which would also negate those spells? Global society would switch to burkas.

Except that it would be cost-prohibited, those suits are expensive. Plus, every security guard would have to have an outrageous Body to not be greatly encumbered by them, high-capability guards are expensive too.


Although I can't think of any right now, I am sure there are some basic precautions that we could take today that we don't because the thing that they protect us from is very rare. (Sunscreen/Skin Cancer, anyone?) For the vast majority of meta-humanity out there magic isn't a daily concern, so walking around town in a full-body suit (whether it be armor or just clothing) is impractical - and, likely annoying. And, if you are one of those that could benifit from it, running around in one would scream: "I'm a mages target! Stay away from me if you don't want to get a secondary blast."

Remember, in SR, magic is actually supposed to be quite rare, I know it doesn't play out that way in game (usually) but it is, so the setting and things in the setting have to reflect that.

Except that a Standard Light Milspec Armor only requires a 4 Body to wear... That is not all that hard to actually get... And 12,000 Nuyen for the Armor, for something that will completely protect you from those often annoying Direct Damage Spells, is very cheap indeed... Assuming that spell targeting actually worked that way anyways...

Keep the Faith

Rand, that hardly is the real point: no one in *the game* would ever worry about those spells, because they'd just wear a body suit and goggles. I was pointing out what a bad rule that would be. A little exaggeration in the wording, that's all.

Also its 12,000 for joe runner to buy it. It is probably disgustingly less for knight errant to load up on a ton of it for all there police, guards etc. If magic worked that way every security force would be immune to spell targeting. Yes magic is "rare" but it isn't so rare that you would not purchase easily obtainable and easy to use suits that also happen to double as some of the best bullet protection you can get. I agree with Rand's premise that magic is too powerful, but I just don't think this is a fix. It is one of those two wrongs don't make a right thing, or breaking something twice doesn't fix it.

Which I was agreeing with, of course...
For the Cost of the Armor, it is WAY Cheap if it provided absolute protection from targeting of spells... It is indeed NOT a fix...
But I will say this... I have not witnessed the crazy levels of brokenness that is often argued about in the Topics here...

Is Magic Powerful? Yes... I do not necessarily agree that it is Broken however... there are lots of ways to control the power of the Mage. The first of which is to use the common sense consequences of rampant, powerful magic use... everything else will follow very nicely. And the application of appropriate Modifiers to the spellcasting test completes the "Fix" so that Magic use does not go out of control to start with.

Keep the Faith

Yes, but only if they're performing Ritual Sorcery, Sympathetic Linking isn't strong enough to support regular sorcery.



And if that guy in the full body armor punched you in the face until you fell to the ground and then kicked you in the nuts repeatedly, I doubt you would think "That suit of full body armor is beating me up!" despite the fact that it's only the surfaces of the armor that are actually striking you, and not the person inside.

Well form you posts I don't think you or your fellow players are the type to abuse the game overly, so magic will probably work fine for you. It breaks mainly at the extremes, and with people willing to overcast virtually all the time. While modifiers certainly tame magic a bit, I feel it is one of the few systems where you need the modifiers to balance the game. And personally I don't like playing how the how any mods are on my X activity this round game. IMO most modifiers should be for adding challenge not something for bringing things into balance or something you should be seeing consistently. One of the few mods I expect to see often is cover(not ME2 often, but often), just because most people should be grabbing cover. But I am not a fan of everywhere is a background count(especially since it is not in the main book an everywheresih thing would not be something you wait to put in street magic), or every facility is a smoky strobe light, sonic bombardment hell hole.

Still I think we mostly agree. My main beef with magic is with overcasting. That isn't something you can look at during character creation, a player can overcast all they want in play. And with an otherwise modest character that isn't broken overcast summons in particular are very hard to deal with. If I were to run it I'd probably follow your groups rule and have spirits above force 3 use edge to resist summons.

Indeed... There are very few abuses at out table, and then, only when they are deemed absolutely necessary. I do agree with you that Overcasting has some problems, as an optimized build will rarely, if ever, take drain, and so there is no incentive to not overcast allways.

The best that can be hoped for is that the consequences of those actions eventaully surface... I can'y tell you how often our mage forgets to clean his signature from the area, and he pays for it... I really think that the biggest balance for magic is the world itself, and the consequences of actions taken. Sure, it may not stop the mage from Ovecasting always, but circumstances have a way of catching up with you eventually.

All things considered, thoguh, it really takes both a good GM and a willng group to work together to provide structure to the game, if wither of those variables are at the extremes, well, you have an issue.

Keep the Faith

The relative power of the mage was one of the things that really made an impression on me as well when reading the SR4 rules. Although mages were pretty damn disgusting in SR3 as well.

I realize that magic = power and that the setting states its rare. Unfortunately, you can't really counter balance something that is mechanically OP by saying its "rare in the setting". In the reality of a Shadowrun campaign it is by no means rare and should be balanced accordingly.

Unfortunately it really doesn't seem to be. I'm considering some of the following Magic House Rules for our campaign:

===House Rules for Magic===

Special Active Skill:

Warding (Willpower)

Throughout nearly all human cultures, there has existed the belief in magic and the unknown. However, even as humans have felt at the mercy of powers they do not understand, they have developed rituals to grant them the illusion of safety and peace of mind. With the return of magic in 2011, humanity was once again the subject of powers he did not understand and a victim of forces that he could not control. Gone was the comfort of technology as the fulcrum of human advancement. However, as magic grew more powerful and prevalent in this new, Awakened world, humans all across the world have also returned to many of the old ways.

Warding takes many different forms, dependent on the root culture that it stems from. Some cultures employ ritualistic gestures, prayers, movements and dances. Other cultures believe in chants, songs or even symbols and prayers written on strips of paper. Whatever form it takes, Warding allows a character to add his skill rating to any rolls he makes to resist the effects of magic. This effect is similar to the spell defense of Counterspelling, and can even be used to shield others (requiring the character to make the same Complex Action to do so).

Additionally, Warding may be used in place of Banishing when performing Attacks of Will on a spirit.

Please note that Mages may also learn Warding, however, a Magician must choose which skill he wishes to use. In no situation does Warding stack with Counterspelling or Banishing. Warding may only be used in place of the other two skills, never as an addition.

At the GM's discretion, Warding may also be used in Ritual Workings to create actual Wards or similar effects (For an example, within the walls of a Shinto monastery).

Default: Yes
Skillgroup: None
Specializations: Spell Defense, Attacks of Will

Quality Changes:

Arcane Arrester: Acts as 2 dice of Spell Resistance. Unlike Spell Resistance, this trait can be taken by characters with the Adept, Mystic Adept and Magician qualities. Anyone with Arcane Arrester can only take a maximum of 2 levels of the Spell Resistance Quality.

Astral Hazing: Completely removed.

Spell changes:

Death Touch, Manabolt, Manaball: These spells may only be used in Astral Combat
Shatter, Powerbolt, Powerball: These spells are completely removed from the game.
Knockout, Stunbolt, Stunball: These spells have been replaced with the Sleep and Mass Sleep spells (see below).

New Spells:

Detection:

Sleep (Active, Directional)
---Type: M Range: LoS Duration: S (Restricted) DV: Net hits generated by the caster
Mass Sleep (Active, Area)
---Type: M Range: LoS Duration: S (Restricted) DV: Net hits + 2
These spells allow the mage to place a living creature into a state of suspension, similar to sleep. The number of hits generated on the Magic + Spellcasting roll is the Threshold needed by the target to break free of the spell. Resisting this spell is an extended Willpower test (Threshold = caster net hits, 1 minute). If the subject of this spell is exposed to anything that would wake a normal person from sleep (Loud noises, being jostled, etc) they are allowed an immediate test to resist the spell. If a subject of this spell takes any kind of damage, the effect is immediately broken.

Sustaining this spell requires the mage to maintain the spell. It cannot be loaded into a Sustaining Foci since the spell requires constant attention from the mage to keep the affected mind wrapped in the cocoon of suspension. If a victim of the spell manages to resist, the mage may choose to recast the spell instantly as an interrupt action.

The target is unaware of what goes on around him while in suspension.
The Mass Sleep version allows the mage to affect a number of targets equal to half of his Magic Rating. If one target manages to resist the spell, the spell breaks and the mage must either recast the spell or end it immediately.

===End Magic House Rules Section===

I think in the context of the setting, a Warding skill is needed and is completely justified. In Street Magic, page 94 lists the rules for making Attacks of Will against spirits. This specifically allows Mundanes to affect magical spirits through the sheer force of their Will. To me, that clearly says that Mundanes can exercise an influence on the Awakened world, even if they do not have the skill and control that a Magician does. But Mundanes do not have to be hapless sheep in a world of magic.

However, by introducing Warding and nerfing or removing some of the sillier Direct Combat Spells in the mage arsenal you also have to look at some of the truly OP magical counters such as the Arcane Arrester and Astral Haze qualities. Leaving them as is would render a mage at a massive disadvantage when faced with either of those qualities.

The change from Stunbolt into a sustained Detection Sleep spell seems like a more appropriate non-violent, non-lethal addition to the mage toolkit then the Stunbolt line. Although the primary use is out of combat (For example, the group's hacker nullifies the security cameras and the Mage sleeps the two sec guards, allowing the group to sneak by further into the compound). But in a pinch it can still be used in combat although if its an all out fight the target will get so many extra resist rolls its not likely to last very long.

What do you guys think of these changes? Is there anything in this that would completely screw mages or would this bring them more into balance with the rest of the world? As it stands right now, killing the mage is one of the prime laws of SR combat...but giving people at least a modest defense against magic would mean that mage lethality is decreased. Conversely, that also means people could be allowed to consider other tactics besides "All damage on the mage NOW!". Any feedback is welcome.

Firstly in SR1&2 mages were ridiculous (things like grounding out), SR3 saw them lose a lot of power. And now, SR4 has seen that trend continue even more! So no, mages now are weaker than ever in the past in many ways.

The skill completely screws mages and is very poorly done (does too much for a single school and almost no player would not take it without question, even mages as banishing is generally considered almost useless and it combines counterspelling & that into a single skill). There exist positive qualities which allow adding extra dice, and the character can just raise his wilpower right away. As well as utilize other things such smart tactics. No player should have access to counterspelling unless they're either a mystic adept or mage IMO.

Mages have to deal w/ visibility penalties AND targest get cover bonuses to their resistance rolls (which MANY people always forget about... how many people would bitch because their pet guard got shot while he stood in the middle of the street/hallway in plain view... but then turn around and bitch when the mage does it and treat it exactly the same way and DON"T use the available negative penalties/positive bonuses!). You should not be in a situation where the mages only option is to have skill + magic + special bonuses (which are limited in nature... and a general mage may have only one or none, and those he have not stacked in a single spell school). A mage getting a 50/50 shot of doing no damage and draining himself is a losing proposition.

Guns fire twice as fast for no drain, but the target gets two resistance rolls. So it's not so far out of line as you think.


Spirits do NOT necessarily just roll edge because it's force over 3... that's just really bad form and bad house rules above. (spirits do need to be toned down IMO... such as their skills only get force/2 ranks rather than force ranks). Also, as a GM house ruling spirits can't be oversummoned (or only spending edge when over-summoning) is reasonable. A GM should NEVER give players direct access to spending the spirits edge (which goes a long way towards limiting their abuse, nowhere does it say a player can ever spend a NPC's edge and that's what spirits are).

If you're worried about spell overcasting, try adding an additional 1/2 point of drain for every point of force overcast.

Try to avoid thread hijacks in the future, something like this start a new topic.

I've been having less and less problems with magic derailing my games and I think it's mostly due to using more fluff. By making sure more in-game consequences of using magic occur (outside the bounds of regulated-legal magics), rather then just alter mechanics to make it harder, I've found it's being used more carefully and more creatively.

For instance, the rarity of magic can play out for your group pretty easily. Signatures on the astral should be fairly identifiable if there are few mages in the population. And how often when the shit hits the fan do mages remember to clean up the astral as they run from the combat drones and security?

Additionally, just from the run last week, the team took out a F5 Earth spirit, a F5 Air spirit, and gravely wounded a F5 Fire and F5 Air, all with one or two attacks each. And these spirits all attacked within 2 combat turns, so close to the same time. The ITNW is good, but if you know how to structure your character well it shouldn't be an issue to deal good amounts of damage and do a bit of AP. They're not as crazy impossible as they are sometimes made out to be.

Why detection? What are you detecting? What sense do these spells add/augment? It seems to me that these should be either mental Manipulation or Health spells.

Sleep spells are allready covered by stunbolt/stunball. Its just a change of description of the effect. The stun makes you tired. If you get KOd then youre asleep.

He said that he houserules those spells away. Reading the whole thread FTW.

The point is he doesnt need to house rule them away if hes just going to bring them right back under a house rule. If hes really concerned about the strength of them it just takes a change of drain codes to fix it. Dont write a novel when a sentence will do.

The reason for classing them as Detection is because a Sleep spell is more like a Mindprobe. But after looking at the Control Thoughts, I guess Manipulation would be the most appropriate category.

Sorry for the high jack. I'll try to avoid that in the future. But since we're already here...

Falconer, every gun user has to deal with the exact same problems, and additionally have to deal with an enemy who can go for Active Defense or who may be wearing a hell of a lot of armor. But I'm not really interested in comparing apples to oranges.

As RAW stands, Drain is not much of a balance to magic because its fairly easy to make a build that can reliably ignore Drain (even from overcasting) and/or which abuses Direct Combat Spells.

To balance out a Warding type skill, you could perhaps disallow Specializations or Improved Ability adept powers from applying. You could also say that Warding is just as affected by Background Count as Magic is. That means Warding would at most give an additional 6 dice (with the option to go Active Defense, just like with gunfire) + a characters spell resistance (max 4 dice). While 10 dice is a lot, its also a significant investment by a "magebane" character. Its entirely possible to make an even MORE effective Magebane in RAW by picking the right racials and qualities...

On average, this means a maxed out mage bane toon gets to decrease a mage's net hits by 3. How exactly does that "completely screw" mages and why is the skill poorly thought out? It builds on real world superstitions and has a valid reason to exist in the world (RP fluff). Its not just being houseruled into existence or a GM making a houserule to allow Counterspelling in his campaigns. It also builds on a current published rule set (Attacks of Will).

Well, I actually completely changed the way it worked Dynamo. If you'd taken the time to read it, you would realize that.

Rather then beating someone into submission (and leaving the target in NO doubt that he is under attack), the sleep spell let's the mage put the target into a sort of fugue state. The target is aware of nothing that goes on around him while Sleeped and if the target was unaware of the mage prior to the spell...he will be unaware at all that he was magicked.

If its used in combat that significantly changes and makes the spell a lot more difficult to use. Injury of any kind makes the spell impossible to use.

As for Spirits of Force 4+ spending Edge to resists Summonings... It works out pretty well, and is not a houserule... By the rules, ANY spirit could spend edge to resist the summoning. As for the ranks in skills, I have never really had a problem with such things in the past.

To Further clarify... Since there is no Rule for when Spirits can use Edge, the basic rules is that Spirits spend Edge in the same ways that Characters use Edge. It is perfectly within the rules for Spirits to actually Spend edge to resist a Summoning. When they use Edge is generally up to the GM (I am in total agreement that the Players should NEVER be allowed to spend Edge for a spirit). In my opinion, using Edge to resist summonings places a very good control on the vast abuses that spirits are capable of as listed on these Forums. It completely stops the craziness of summoning that Force 8+ Spirit that many contend is their right to summon. I have noticed that when Spirits spend Edge to resist, that no longer happens (Unless it is a dire circumstance, as opposes to a whim). It is a control that is perfectly viable and "legal" and actually fits the fluff pretty well (Spirits are powerful and are to be feared, especially the big ones).

Keep the Faith

TJ:
Yes it is house ruling... spirits CAN spend edge to do that, but generally SHOULDN"T unless the caster has been abusive somehow (spirit bane quality), spirit's goals aren't in alignment with casters, or some other REASON. Just simply being force 4+ is not good enough reason and NEVER stated in the books. It's an arbitrary house rule which sets a criteria for invoking the can clause.

And you strike on exactly what I'm saying... dealing with high force spirits should only come up under dire conditions. If the summoning is RP'ed a bit more... the player might 'negotiate' a little w/ the spirit to try and 'convince' it to help him as opposed to just 'force' it.

The solution presented is akin to using a sledgehammer/explosives to demolish everything rather than fixing the specific issues which come up. Yes you solved some problems, but only by also completely screwing LEGITIMATE uses of spirits.

Even limiting players spirits to their magic rating... a force 5 or 6 is scary, but can generally be dealt with with starting equipment by mundanes. (SnS, ExEx, w/o too much hassle after chargen APDS...).

Sorry to argue with you about this Falconer... But IT IS NOT houserulling to use a Spirits Edge... It is a viable option for the spirit... Your saying that it should only be in dire circumstances is the actual Houserule (and is not supported by the Rules)... Spirits can spend their Edge Attribute however they wish, including the resistance of Summoning or Binding... Your saying that is not the case does not change the rules for Edge Expenditure... and it does not Screw a player in any way from using Spirits as they see fit... Abuse brings further complications, while Attention to the Spirits may allow a MAge to not have to worry about that Edge Expenditure at all (Placation of Spirits removes the Edge Issue, at least if done sincerely)...

I have had no issues in this regard as it balances out the higher force spirits. Most people on Dumpshock do not allow the Spirit to use Edge to resist, and therefore they end up with characters summoning Crazy High Force Spirits (Force 12 anyone, I even remember a discussion where Force 16 were commonplace for Initiated Mages... Really?)... Edge expenditure will quickly weed out those player's characters. It should not be commonplace to have a Force 8+ Spirit running around according to the fluff...

Limiting Spirits to Summoners Magic Rating would also be a houserule... My Solution does not need any additional rules (Edge is a RAW Issue after all) and would still keep Spirits at 5+ in Check... You Cannot say the same for yours...

EDIT: OF Course, This line of Discussion does not really belong in this thread, so if we want to continue this, maybe we should atart ANOTHER thread about the uses of Edge in Spirit Summoning...

Keep the Faith

My point is thus... which you studiously ignore.

I agree, the rules say a spirit CAN. However, they do NOT say a spirit always will. You're arbitrarily creating that condition. Depending on tradition... spirits may very well be willing servants who gain something out of the deal (look at things like christian theurgy or otherwise. You're using the sledgehammer for something which should be used AFTER a player has been abusing spirits.

Just because the rules say you can shoot the cop in the street doesn't mean there aren't consequences for it. The same goes for PC's summoning spirits... if they're abusing it then the consequences should be brought to bear.

Spirits under force 4 are rediculously weak and not all that usefull, even in a low power street game. The ONLY thing you've done is fixed it so the ONLY type of mage which is usefull is one who's twinked out his drain pool. (to resist his spell drain, since he won't be using spirit services... and so he can manage to soak summoning drain when he needs an actually useful spirit).

I think you two are on closer pages then you might think.

You've both agreed that spirits can. You both agree that spirits should if the player is abusive towards them. I think the dispute here is really what constitutes abuse, as I've heard many different views on that subject. Some think using them with high frequency is a form of abuse. I don't, but I think using them without "paying your dues" is.

Personally, I think that a higher force spirit is more LIKELY to use edge, but not a sure thing. I mostly see this as a reflection of it's higher level of intellect, it will likely have more personal goals and it may not appreciate the mage interfering with by summoning at inopportune times, and it knows that it is more powerful and demands respect.

I've been coming up with a fun method for myself for determining if a spirit uses edge to resist summoning. It's based on how often a particular spirit (I treat a mage's F3 Fire spirit as the same spirit every time it is summoned, maybe even name it) is summoned and how long it's been since the mage has payed it's dues to the spirit (various ways: RP, sacrifices, helping the spirit meet it's goals, etc, all the typical ways. Regardless of the tradition there should be SOME form of this, even if it's the equivalent of a Hermetic cleaning his tools), and I record that number. Then I do it sort of like calling up a contact. I roll a d6 and if the result is equal to or above the number then spirit is summoned normally. If it comes up lower then that number then the spirit uses edge to resist. As the number goes up the spirit will communicate to the mage that it's not pleased with the current arrangement so it's not a giant surprise when it happens, and gives the player a chance to reset that number back down to 0.

I like the idea because it gives a bit of a element of danger but puts the control completely in the hands of the mage and encourages role playing with the spirits. I think I'm going to start play-testing this little house-rule, but my group isn't magic heavy. If anyone else wants to try it, please PM me and let me know how it works for your games.