Backstab and perception Options

[cndblank]

I like to see these questions worked through because I know they are going to come up in my game.

Per RAW, It is spelled out pretty clear on Page 165 of SR4A20A that Surprise only counts on the first Initiative Pass.
If both guards are surprised then they can not act against the attacker on the first Initiative Pass.
So on the second Initiative Pass the guard can if he knows they are being attacked either take his second IP if he has one or abort to Full Defense using an Interrupted Action (SR4A20 page 148).


The best way to do this might be to have the PC split his attack between the two surprised guards. It would not give either guard a chance to respond unless they remained conscious.


Otherwise, I guess the issue in question is can the PC take out two guards before they have a chance to sound the alarm (setting aside the question of an bio monitors (that is what your hacker is for)).


That means that the PC has to take down the first guard without alerting the second one. That is a pretty high bar to get over.

So the second guard has to not be looking directly at the first guard (Maybe a thrown pebble the previous turn or something more high tech like turning a Trivid on using the remote.).

Then the PC will have to one shot drop the other guard. That means Unconsciousness (Dying or out cold with all physical or stun boxes filled in on a monitoring track), stunned (tasered and failed the stun test) or unable to make a sound (I could see using a Called Shot to Subdue a guard in a choke hold so that he couldn't sound an alarm).
Once again a Called Shot would be a good way for a PC to "Take out" a guard and not make a lot of noise doing it.
Given that unless the PC is using the choke method about he has to do it in one IP. One the other hand if the second guard is not paying attention and the PC can keep the first quiet, then he can take more than the first IP to deal with the first.

Third the PC has to do it relatively silently.


Then we would see if the second guard notices his coworker getting fragged with a perception roll.
Depending on how obvious the attack and how close together the guards are the perception roll would have a threshold between 1 to 3.
Obviously a modifier on how alert the guards are will apply (Between of -2 for being distracted to +3 for actively looking for intruders).


Other considerations:
How much background noise is there.
Where they talking to each other (could be a bonus for the PC if the second guard is the talky one)?
What are the visibility conditions (Can the PC pull the first guard out of view).


If the guard got no successes on his perception test then I could see testing for surprise again using Surprise in Combat (SR4A20 page 145) during the second IP.
He just didn't notice or noticed something but couldn't react in time.

If he did notice then can the PC take out the second guard before he can react. If the PC is fast then he has a good chance, but the guard can go full defense.


The other two consideration are how fast is the second guard going to respond once he realizes something is wrong (A lot will depend on how well the perception roll was made) and is he combat experienced enough to keep his cool. Perhaps a Composure Test (WIL + CHA) with professional Rating added?


Does that sound right?


Flip side is if guard is on alert there is nothing saying he can not be delaying an action especially if working as a team. Once guard opens the door and looks around while the other covers him.
Course the trick is for the PC to get to the guard providing the cover first.

Also remember there is nothing wrong with letting a PC pull a cool move once in a while. It is a high bar to get over. You just plan for it and have the real action later on.
Just remind them that nothing goes according to plan and when they are paying you the big Nuyen they expect you to be able to handle anything that does comes up.

[Whipstitch]

I think that sounds reasonable. I really do think the devs intended a good dollop of GM interventionism on this due to the many methods of combat involved in SR4. Being able to start running for cover or to drop prone even if you don't realize where the attackers are makes perfect sense when you finally find yourself in an ambush's crossfire, but that situation is a very a different kettle of fish than a stealthy Mystic Adept casting Death Touch on a guy from within the cozy radius of his Hush spell.

[IKerensky]

Last I checked, knifes don't make gunshots.

As for the "falling on the floor problem, you can catch the body of the dead guy and lay him on the floor. Unless you made steaks out of him with a monofilament whip.

I was speaking about the guard weapon... If they have their weapons armed, they will probably fire a few round while twisting.

[pster]

Regarding a choke hold, is it considered a subduing check? As far as I know, subduing deals no damage initially in the first pass but you may choose to deal stun damage in the subsequent passes. I was wondering if it is possible to subdue one hand to muffle the voice and simultaneously stab in the back with a melee weapon to deal damage in the first initiative of a surprise round. Maybe a successfull melee attack, then comparing character's strength + net hits vs target's body like a subduing test in SR4. So a character can choke grab target's neck with one hand and stab with other hand at the same time like a stealth kill. This is to limit any sound from the body dropping or death cries from the target.

[Dahrken]

Basically ou're making two things at once, so I'd make that two actions, with averaged/split pools - one roll to subdue, another one to attack, but both in the same IP.

[Draco18s]

I was speaking about the guard weapon... If they have their weapons armed, they will probably fire a few round while twisting.

If you sneak up on two guards patrolling the halls...
...why the fuck do they have their weapons drawn?

[Critias]

If you sneak up on two guards patrolling the halls...
...why the fuck do they have their weapons drawn?

That depends entirely on the guard, where they're patrolling, and what weapons they've got. With a long gun, in particular, it's not terribly uncommon for folks to walk around with them in-hand and ready to go.

[cndblank]

Basically ou're making two things at once, so I'd make that two actions, with averaged/split pools - one roll to subdue, another one to attack, but both in the same IP.

I don't believe you are allowed to split an attack against the same target. I can't quote it.

Just like you only get taser/shock damage OR hand to hand damage with a shock glove or Stun Baton, but not both.

[Ramorta]

By default it is not possable to make multiple attacks against the same target in melee. Dual weilding or not. You are likely thinking of the firearm rules.

Attacker Using a Second Firearm
Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each
hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires
that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two
separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest
dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. Two-gun attacks
also negate any dice pool bonuses from smartlinks or laser sights.
Additionally, any uncompensated recoil modifiers applicable to one
weapon also apply to the other weapon.

The only option for splitting your dicepool in melee is attacking multiple targets.

Multiple Targets
Characters may attack more than one opponent in
melee with the same Complex Action, as long as
those opponents are within one meter of each other.
The attacker’s dice pool is split between each attack,
and each attack is handled separately.

However, it would be possable to make two (or more) attacks with the Finishing Move maneuver. Which sounds like what your trying to do anyways. However, this still would not be splitting your dice pool.

[Dahrken]

I agree it's not RAW. Since I usually play a mage I'm not exactly familiar with H/H rules.

Here the character basically try to do two things at once so I don't think house-ruling the situation this way (allowing split melee pools on a single target in this very specific context) is abusive.

[Draco18s]

That depends entirely on the guard, where they're patrolling, and what weapons they've got. With a long gun, in particular, it's not terribly uncommon for folks to walk around with them in-hand and ready to go.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

Last I checked cops and security guards tend to keep their weapons holstered unless in a combat situation.

[Yerameyahu]

It's like you've never seen a movie. Patrolling guards with SMGs always have them out, or slung in a ready position. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Adarael]

Also, he specified "long gun", not pistol.

You cannot 'holster' an AK-98. You either have it slung, or in your hands. Anybody packing an AR on a patrol is gonna have it in their hands, because it's just more comfortable to carry it that way.

[Draco18s]

Also, he specified "long gun", not pistol.

I missed that bit.

Even so, there is the safety switch. People tend not to thumb that, before pulling the trigger, when they get stabbed in the neck.

[cndblank]

Safety, That is what a smartgun link is for (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



In those cases where someone want to take extra care for a quiet take down (say get a hand over their mouth), I do think a Called Shot is a perfectly valid way by RAW to do so.

You can choke a person to death using subduing by holding it after they go unconscious so there is no need to split the attack to perform two actions on a person.



The fact is any one walking in to an ambush in SR is pretty Royally Fragged six ways to Sunday anyway especially if they are not on alert and just doing a routine patrol.

And a real street samurai ought to be able to take out two average security guards on routine patrol with no fuss if he has time to set up for them and take them from the rear.

As a GM I'd be asking why he wasn't taking them down alive to avoid biomonitor issues and just standard professionalism to keep things clean, quiet, and minimal collateral damage instead of pulling this Trivid razor drek that is going to leave blood every where. But that is just me.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't think there's any way to 'take down' someone that avoids a biomonitor alert, especially if you also need to be locally stealthy.

[Tachi]

I said I wasn't going to post in this thread again, yet here I am going back on what I said. I fuckin' hate it when that happens, yet here I am doing it anyway. Shit.

First off, a good point was just made about a guard with a long-gun in hand. There are techniques specifically for just such a situation. Approach from behind, hand over the mouth, cut the inside of the elbow of the arm holding the weapon's grip, removing the possibility of pulling the trigger. Then, using the same hand, you reach over the useless arm and stab the heart from the front. Unfortunately, this technique is nowhere near as stealthy as a clean kidney hit and the partner is almost sure to notice. If you have the Initiative and Surprise you can kill the first and the partner cannot attack you, then you still have the advantage of acting first in the second Iniative Pass. Just a thought. Keep in mind that the second guard might still use a Free Action to get off a message or trigger an alarm wirelessly.

Second, there are at least as many different preferred quick-kill methods as there are days in a month, from the Spetnaz affinity for throwing axes to the deception/poison/blade techniques of the oh-so-cliched ninja. However, if you check with modern first-world militaries you'll find that the greatest, most practiced, and preferred quick-kill technique... is a cranial double-tap from a silenced firearm, which alleviates any need to sneak up on them. And, as before, if you have the Initiatve and Surprise, you can kill both without any chance for return fire.

Last, while I don't own SR4A, I doubt the appropriate passage from SR4 changed much in the Anniversary edition,

Rather than a single blow, each attack is a series of moves and counter-moves... it represents several seconds of feints, jabs, punches, counters, attacks, defends, kicks and bites by both combatants at the same time.

So, I have no problem with an attacker being able to cover the mouth, cut the inside of the elbow, and stab the heart with a single attack, as long as he has Surprise and uses a called shot, likely with a -4 (or even higher) penalty.

[cndblank]

I don't think there's any way to 'take down' someone that avoids a biomonitor alert, especially if you also need to be locally stealthy.

There is a world of difference between someone with no heart beat and someone who is unconscious.

Especially if they never saw it coming or if it was all over in under 6 seconds.

I mean do you want an security alert going off because someone stubbed his toe?

So the question becomes how good is the biomonitor.
Is it implanted or worn.
How good is the monitoring software.
How closely are they monitoring the feed.

[Ramorta]

I don't think that its too far of a stretch of imagionation to think that the corps would write a program to determine if their guards were sleeping/unconcious. It does measure their heartbeat and an unconcious or sleeping persons heartbeat would be slower then if they were awake and walking around. Also, would it be too far of a stretch to believe that paired guards would have access to view their partners biomoniter data? You don't have to be an expert to notice a red flashing warning that your partners vitals just spiked or dropped. Full scale panic button effect? No, of course not. However, it would warrant the second guard to turn around and look at his partner.

[Adarael]

Hell, I'd install software that just to keep Joe Shinybadge from napping on the job, if I was their manager.
But yeah, I think a sleeping/KO'd guy would be much harder to spot, unless you pumped him full of neurostun.

In the interests of full disclosure, I sprang this trap on my players once, and then immediately realized a biomonitor hooked up to stim-juice was the #1 next thing on my street sam's to-buy list in another game. The very next session, I got jumped and KO'd. Jumped up behind the ninja after he thought I'd passed out and unloaded a full burst into him. Comedy gold.

[toturi]

I don't think that its too far of a stretch of imagionation to think that the corps would write a program to determine if their guards were sleeping/unconcious. It does measure their heartbeat and an unconcious or sleeping persons heartbeat would be slower then if they were awake and walking around. Also, would it be too far of a stretch to believe that paired guards would have access to view their partners biomoniter data? You don't have to be an expert to notice a red flashing warning that your partners vitals just spiked or dropped. Full scale panic button effect? No, of course not. However, it would warrant the second guard to turn around and look at his partner.

I don't think it is too far a stretch of imagination to think that the bean counters that evaluate such a proposal to can the proposal because of reliability/cost/effectiveness/some reason or another.

[IKerensky]

I checked the SR4A and was surprised to see that the price of a Sensor RFID Tag linked with a bioscanner would mean 300 NY + 200 per guard...

Of course, it could be part of the standard issued security tag RFiD and work's commlink for large security company and probably megacorp, but not every security unit.

On the other hand this kind of device sound so much interesting it could easily double or triple guard efficiency. And is a lot less vulnerable to hacking that sentry drones...