Unpublished Drafts - Free for All, Chapters that might have been Options

[Kanada Ten]

I feel I should mention this, the blue text in the drafts is stuff I highlighted for "first cut" in the event of space issues...or whose character might be a bit much for the audience.

Interesting; I had assumed they were added after the first draft to spice up the text.

[Ancient History]

Nah. The Unpublished Neo-Tokyo Fragment was entirely bluescript.

[hermit]

Smedman could have written "and then a grue eats the Sioux Nation" and it's instantly canon and the RPG guys have to write around it

Instead, Lonsing wrote that Chibi are now a must-have equipment. I don't really see that as better, sorry.

unless later line developers knuckled down and wrote a "story bible," which I doubt

Synner wanted to, but it didn't work out. For one arc (the 4th world legacy), there also is the Ancient files.

[Synner]

-- Here's my somewhat snarky take on things: Aside from a few top-down story elements (that are basically injected into canon with a splash, like SURGE) there is no "plot" in the metaplot of Shadowrun (unless later line developers knuckled down and wrote a "story bible," which I doubt).

Welcome back Ken.

The story bible was a work in progress on my desk when I left CGL. On the other hand, since the release of SR4 (and certainly since I stepped in after Rob moved on to Eclipse Phase) metaplots have been mapped out and brainstormed 3-4 years down the road. Emergence and what became Ghost Cartelswere concieved and brainstormed over 4 years ago. I had War! mapped out (although a very different plotline than what will see print) to follow on from the fallout of Ghost Cartels, then the Artifacts and followup campaign storyline, then a Horizon story, then the Space Elevator plotline would come to a head, and later down the line the follow up to the teasers left in by the Dream Seed/Ghost Cartels. Not sure how far ahead Jason's planning things these days, but I was definitely into mapping things as far ahead as possible and structuring the release schedule to support the current direction/plot of the game (ie. A Merc/Military or Espionage book to preceed a war campaign book)

Nah. The Unpublished Neo-Tokyo Fragment was entirely bluescript.

If memory serves me well you wrote that up for me after layout was mostly wrapped and it looked like we were a couple of pages short for Neo-Tokyo. Almost overnight IIRC.

[Platinum]

I'd really apppreciate it if people didn't bandy the term "metaplot" as a catchall term when they're actually referring to several distinct elements of the Shadowrun world.

Let's be clear: Shadowrun is a living setting, it has an "evolving history", this is one of its greatest strengths and one of the reasons it has remained healthy and popular a game world over 20 years. It's what makes this game feel alive. It feels like our own history (hell just look at what's happened in the real world in the past 20 years!) and helps us identify with the world portrayed.
And while it's also a problem simply because of the hassle that long a continuity represents, it's a minor one compared to what it brings to the table. Now the important thing to keep in mind is that this evolving history is not a story per se. Events happen or are detailed but many are not by themselves plot points or linked to narratives/stories - hence they are not "metaplot". Open Corporate Enclaves and read about what Neo-Tokyo is like after the Crash 2.0. Now step back and realize there is no "metaplot" to it. The setting information has simply been updated to reflect the passing of time. True, certain elements might tie into metaplots (the rise to power of the Emperor's faction) but ultimately there is no backstory to it, there is no plot (unless you make it up). Hence it isn't metaplot, it is simply updated setting material.

This may be what it turned into but not everyone likes it this way. BattleTech did a great job of separating the two for the longest time. (I have no idea where it stands now as I have lost track of it over 12 years now)

I like the corporations, shady underworld, gritty cyber, neon light, japanese culture taking over, and a whole new world of magic evolving. (but trumping everything) As we think of new ideas I like to see the additional tech available. I don't see why it has to be tied to a timeline. The whole power struggle and politics I can especially do without. If I want a story I will get a novel. Having this story line crammed down our throats, cutting the value of a sourcebook is what I don't like about shadowrun. Late 3rd and 4th it got worse. I liked the Street Sam Catalog, Cybertechnology, fields of fire. Give me tech, give me rules, but keep the fluff out of it. I will buy a novel if it suits my taste. 2XS, fade to black, etc. I avoided all Kenson books and the dragon heart series as they all got "mary-sue" characters and plots.

On the other hand Shadowrun has a bunch of metaplots. Note the plural. A metaplot is an overarching story linking together several narrative elements in an ongoing long term or short term story. Shadowrun has never had a single metaplot (like say the WOD's Gehenna storyarc). It has instead offered up several metaplots; some of which have ended, some new ones have begun, some are ongoing, some have morphed into very different stories than originally intended. Regardless these are separate elements from the "evolvoing history" above. Whilst the two interact, the history is larger in scope and many (i would even say most) events are never detailed in a narrative fashion.

Now contrary to what has been said in this thread, the SR4 developers made a conscious decision to remove metaplot from the corebooks with the exception of the BBB itself. The one arguable exception is the emergence of technomancers and the Matrix material in Unwired. On the other hand, the core books feature a lot more fluff than the previous edition's equivalents. It should go without saying but fluff and setting information do not equal metaplot. SR4 intentionally added fluff back into the corebooks because it was something the fanbase demanded after SR3 corebooks were seen as encyclopaedic in tone and dull tomes of stats. We believed it made sense to provide setting material to contextualize the new developments, technologies, magics, gear, and other elements we were introducing in these books rather than leaving them hanging out of context (after all, who produces all this stuff? who uses it? how common is it? what's the likelihood of someone thinking you're odd for carrying it? why is it of interest to runners? what are the less obvious risks and pitfalls of the technologies being introduced?) We also deemed this updated setting context important because there has been paradigm in many established aspects of the setting with SR4 which is directly attributable to the whole "evolving history" thing I mention above (such as the Matrix and Augmented Reality, but also bio vs. cyber, the rise of genetech and nanotech, etc). But I would like to repeat, the main reason we opted to put the fluff back in was because the fans demanded it.

This is the reason shadowrun is emo instead of punk. Give me names of these fans and addresses and I will remedy that for you.
I think some fans ask for fluff, but the company looked at it and said how can we make the most money. The company knows that they can pad technical content with fluff, usually enough to split things into multiple publications and sell more units over all than keeping just technical books that everyone will buy and fluff books that only a few will buy.

So in essence you will sell units more by having 2 books 50% tech/ 50% fluff, than you will selling 1 book 100% tech and 1 book 100% fluff because less people will buy the fluff and everyone buys the tech.

[Platinum]

I would like to thank you for that. Much as I have my gripes with SR4, I really enjoy this. It is one of the main reasons I still buy SR books.

Buy a novel. Then you get all the fluff you can handle.

-- The one bright spot is the lack of novels; Smedman could have written "and then a grue eats the Sioux Nation" and it's instantly canon and the RPG guys have to write around it

How is the lack of novels a bright spot?

[Caadium]

Buy a novel. Then you get all the fluff you can handle.

See, this is one of those areas where I think SR4 has done a good job of balancing things. In SR1/2 you would get 1 item (cyber, vehicle, weapon, etc) per page with some game info and a LOT of fluff (I'm looking at you Rigger Black Book and Stret Sam Catalogue). In SR3 it was like an encyclopdia of game info (as stated above), and while this allowed for some new things it didn't always feel whole to me. Stats in a book are nice, but there was nothing to give a feel for them. The SR4 books give some fluff, but have higher content than older versions.

If you suggest that people buy novels if they want fluff, then it could be argued that you could go buy technical manuals if you just want gear info. In my opinion, both are foolish, to have a game world where things feel like they fit, you need more than just stat blocks.

Just my $0.02 on this part though.

[hermit]

Also, which novel to buy? It's not like there are any coming out.

[Tzeentch]

The story bible was a work in progress on my desk when I left CGL.

-- That's good to hear (the planning part, not the "never finished" part). The ad-hoc system was a bit bizarre for a game line that advanced in real-time.

Not sure how far ahead Jason's planning things these days, but I was definitely into mapping things as far ahead as possible and structuring the release schedule to support the current direction/plot of the game (ie. A Merc/Military or Espionage book to preceed a war campaign book)

-- This is a huge boon to writers and overall consistency, even if you don't agree with the actual events themselves. With the stable of Shadowrun writers always in flux it's not easy to keep things coherent over time.

How is the lack of novels a bright spot?

-- Many of the novels were godawful messes. For every Burning Bright there were two Forever Drugs.

[Ancient History]

If memory serves me well you wrote that up for me after layout was mostly wrapped and it looked like we were a couple of pages short for Neo-Tokyo. Almost overnight IIRC.

You know I hate to miss deadlines and can work fast when needs be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Platinum]

Also, which novel to buy? It's not like there are any coming out.

Ask the developers. Somehow they hear that we want fluff, but not that we want a good novel. I remember being freaked out by 2xs. The hive scenes blew my mind. Too bad Stackpole parted ways. It would be nice to find the next Nigel Findley.

If you suggest that people buy novels if they want fluff, then it could be argued that you could go buy technical manuals if you just want gear info. In my opinion, both are foolish, to have a game world where things feel like they fit, you need more than just stat blocks.

I would love tech manuals. I agree that we need to have more than 1 item per page. would be easy to manage 2 possibly 3.

[BlueMax]

Wait,
Lets make a trade. For every page of tech item fluff we need, you axe one of those annoying short stories. Win Win?

BlueMax
/ would prefer beautiful whitespace and shadowtalk to short stories

[Synner]

This may be what it turned into but not everyone likes it this way. BattleTech did a great job of separating the two for the longest time. (I have no idea where it stands now as I have lost track of it over 12 years now)

Everyone has a preference so I'm not saying whether one person is right or wrong, but growing sales, a re-energized fanbase and a renewed brand in a downturn market indicate that we've made the right choice. And it's not just a question of the current formats being the preference of newcomers to the game. Plenty of people have come back to the game with SR4 who had quit because SR3 was not only percieved as too complex but the must have books made it worse by presenting the rules in a dry and out-of-context fashion.

I like the corporations, shady underworld, gritty cyber, neon light, japanese culture taking over, and a whole new world of magic evolving. (but trumping everything) As we think of new ideas I like to see the additional tech available. I don't see why it has to be tied to a timeline. The whole power struggle and politics I can especially do without. If I want a story I will get a novel. Having this story line crammed down our throats, cutting the value of a sourcebook is what I don't like about shadowrun. Late 3rd and 4th it got worse. I liked the Street Sam Catalog, Cybertechnology, fields of fire. Give me tech, give me rules, but keep the fluff out of it. I will buy a novel if it suits my taste. 2XS, fade to black, etc. I avoided all Kenson books and the dragon heart series as they all got "mary-sue" characters and plots.

Here's the thing: The evolving universe, the whole dynamic timeline thing, well, it goes right back to First Edition. The setting was always intended to develop and evolve. The decision to try to keep it 1 game year to 1 RL year dates back to the glory days of SR2 but if you look at the adventures and there's an obvious continuity (ie. Bug metaplot, IE metaplot, etc). Compare the Street Samurai Catalog, Shadowtech, Cybertechnology, and Man and Machine (note all prior to "late 3rd") and see the timeline advance and the tech evolve, and the fluff is there to back it up (well, it was until M&M). So, ultimately, what you dislike in terms of evolving settng is an integral part of Shadowrun since the very beginning and not a staple of late SR3 and SR4. And on the (different) subject of fluff in rulebooks: the SR2 books like Grimoire and Awakenings were far heavier in terms of fluff than Street Magic for instance. It was just the SR3 formats that didn't quite work as well because they were too dry, which is one reason the SOTA books reintroduced fluff to rulebooks.

And just for the sake of it I'm going to repeat: "evolving history" =! "storyline." The world moves on, things happen and not all of them are story or metaplot-related. The introduction of a paradigm-changing technology like Augmented Reality was not in itself a metaplot or story, and yet it changes the way the entire setting is percieved. No longer is the Matrix the domain of deckers and techheads alone. Everyone now uses the Matrix, like the books have always said they did but in practice the rules never allowed (one of many examples of the disconnect resultant from keeping rules and fluff separate). However, without the extensive fluff in Unwired this radical change would never have been properly contextualized.

But I would like to repeat, the main reason we opted to put the fluff back in was because the fans demanded it.

This is the reason shadowrun is emo instead of punk. Give me names of these fans and addresses and I will remedy that for you.

I would agree to disagree. As for the fans, look at this thread and pick names. Hermit, with whom I don't always see eye to eye, just thanked me for doing it. There are plenty of others, in fact I'd say they're the vast majority of players I've talked to (before and after I became line developer).

I think some fans ask for fluff, but the company looked at it and said how can we make the most money. The company knows that they can pad technical content with fluff, usually enough to split things into multiple publications and sell more units over all than keeping just technical books that everyone will buy and fluff books that only a few will buy.

No, the fans asked for fluff in their corebooks because the SR3 stuff in particular was dry and a turn-off. I have mails asking for answers to the questions I posted above in the relevant books. This was not a case of misunderstanding or opportunism. We could have done the core books without the fluff but its a mistake to assume that people buy rulebooks simply because of the crunch. Crunch without context adds nothing to the gameworld and hampers an understanding of the setting (ie. see the inconsistent portrayal of nanotech fluff with nanotech rules in SR2-3 and consider the backbreaking impact on the setting it could have as described).

So in essence you will sell units more by having 2 books 50% tech/ 50% fluff, than you will selling 1 book 100% tech and 1 book 100% fluff because less people will buy the fluff and everyone buys the tech,

Here's the thing though. We didn't make two books with 50/50. We didn't even try. We (and by we I mean Rob Boyle and later myself) announced right off (following the release of SR4) that we were actually going to try to destill the 15+ books it took to cover things in SR2 and SR3 into only 5 corebooks in SR4 (besides the BBB). And that's what we did. Amazingly we not only crammed all that in (well, 90% of it) but we also still managed to add in the fluff that contextualizes the technologies and gear in the game world. So no, that was never the plan.

[Fuchs]

And the mix of fluff and crunch works out well.

[lehesu]

Synner, I certainly think your approach was the right thing to do. I know very few people who buy into an RPG just because of the game system. Most people jump in because they see a great setting. A good rules system will manage to complement the setting.

[Caadium]

Synner, I certainly think your approach was the right thing to do. I know very few people who buy into an RPG just because of the game system. Most people jump in because they see a great setting. A good rules system will manage to complement the setting.

I concur. Settings get me to try games. Systems determine how much time, and money, I eventually put into it. I've even been in games where we used one setting, but the rules from a similar genre setting because of dislike for the rules of the setting. I don't have the time anymore to create bastard games like that though. I waited on SR4 for a long-time because the system was so different; eventually I gave it a look and came to see it as my favorite SR rules.

[Tzeentch]

The two best Shadowrun sourcebooks ever made (don't argue with me, you know I'm right) were Shadowtech and Shadowbeat. Neither advanced any particular meta-plot, were internally consistent, mixed rules and fluff (hell the rules were the fluff in no small part!), and fleshed out the world.

[Platinum]

The two best Shadowrun sourcebooks ever made (don't argue with me, you know I'm right) were Shadowtech and Shadowbeat. Neither advanced any particular meta-plot, were internally consistent, mixed rules and fluff (hell the rules were the fluff in no small part!), and fleshed out the world.

I think that we need to get to a common definition of fluff in order to truly understand each other. For me fluff is metaplot, events, timeline. Optional rulesets that compliment crunch, and source material about agencies or locations, haven't been in my definition of fluff.

Sr3 wasn't popular because nothing was new. It was a rehash. Carl, MikeM didn't develop anything revolutionary just regurgitated the old. The artwork had changed and it seemed more like a reprinting than anything else. It's hard to justify spending the money when only a few things are different. We do, but begrundgingly. That will factor heavily into sales. Again no good novels were written, and with all of the ownership changes it detracted from things.

sr4's timing had so much to do with things. The xbox game generated some atttention, the distinctive game mechanics made a clear distinction from the old that people either adopted it or or abandoned it.

I agree with everyone that the genre is the draw of whatever gamesystem. Shadowrun has the sweet spot of magic and cyber.

[Synner]

That post has a number of mistakes or misconceptions.

I think that we need to get to a common definition of fluff in order to truly understand each other. For me fluff is metaplot, events, timeline. Optional rulesets that compliment crunch, and source material about agencies or locations, haven't been in my definition of fluff.

I believe you'll be hardpressed to find anyone who subscribes to that distinction of what constitutes fluff, and the main reason for that is that the source material about "agencies and locations" is intimately tied to the events surrounding them in a game with an evolving timeline (which I reiterate has been there since SR1). Shadowrun was never conceived to exist in a static setting, it was designed so that the things shadowrunners do actually impact the world and have consequences which means the setting itself cannot be locked in time.

It's not like D20's Urban Arcana which sets you up with a generic urban fantasy setting with a bunch of interesting locations, powerplayers and organizations, goes on to establish some sketchy background that fails to contextualize anything, and then says that you're free to make of it what you want because it makes no difference in the long run since there's no intention of keeping a common universe alive. On the other hand in Shadowrun, for better or worse the characters' actions over the years have contributed to the outcome of presidential elections (Shadows of the Underworld), to the fates of thousands of lives (Brainscan), to the unveiling dangerous conspiracies that threaten the entire world (Double Exposure) and dozens of other important and not-so-important events, all of which come together with non-metaplot events and developments (such as the emergence of Augmented Reality and wireless technologies or the appearance of alchaera) in the rich tapestry of an evolving and ongoing history.

Sr3 wasn't popular because nothing was new.

Nobody said it wasn't popular. Quite to the contrary SR3 was the overall bestselling and longest running edition of the game for a reason (despite the market slump).

What I did say is that the format of the rulebooks wasn't popular, and that because even though they (a) included significantly more crunch, gears and advanced rules than the SR2 equivalents and (b) they expanded and updated the subsystems, they were in fact a dull and encyclopedic read. Meaning the problem wasn't the contents it was the lackluster and dry presentation. Also note that the setting books for SR3 also sold particularly well. Sales were good, despite the issues I pointed out. Which in turn is why with SR4 we followed SR3's best-selling model in terms of content but adapted the format to include what was lacking - ie. fluff. (and by fluff I mean everything that isn't crunch/rules, from information on the major players and sites to the current status quo and SOTA).

sr4's timing had so much to do with things. The xbox game generated some atttention

For that to make sense the timeline would have to have been different. In reality Shadowrun 4 was released at GenCon 2005 almost 2 years before the XBox game came out, and a year before it was even presented to anyone outside FASA Studios.

the distinctive game mechanics made a clear distinction from the old that people either adopted it or or abandoned it

That was a hard call but I continue to believe Rob made the right decision. Not only was the system percieved as too complex but it was littered with "legacy" bugs. An overhaul of the SR3 rules would have still left the impression that the game was fundamentally unaltered, remained complex and had a steep learning curve. We knew Shadowrun needed a fresh start to last another 20 years. Losing some diehard fans of the older rules was a gamble that needed to be taken, and one that more than paid off with not only a huge infusion of new blood into the fanbase but a return of many a gamer estranged by the previous edition's rules (ironically enough despite loving the fluff and setting.)

[Platinum]

I believe you'll be hardpressed to find anyone who subscribes to that distinction of what constitutes fluff, and the main reason for that is that the source material about "agencies and locations" is intimately tied to the events surrounding them in a game with an evolving timeline (which I reiterate has been there since SR1). Shadowrun was never conceived to exist in a static setting, it was designed so that the things shadowrunners do actually impact the world and have consequences which means the setting itself cannot be locked in time.

I can't say that I fully subscribe to that notion. Give me some examples of where this exists in sr1. Look at Shadowbeat, NAN, Grimoire, please tell me where they were tied into the then current events and timelines instead of historic?

It's not like D20's Urban Arcana which sets you up with a generic urban fantasy setting with a bunch of interesting locations, powerplayers and organizations, goes on to establish some sketchy background that fails to contextualize anything, and then says that you're free to make of it what you want because it makes no difference in the long run since there's no intention of keeping a common universe alive. On the other hand in Shadowrun, for better or worse the characters' actions over the years have contributed to the outcome of presidential elections (Shadows of the Underworld), to the fates of thousands of lives (Brainscan), to the unveiling dangerous conspiracies that threaten the entire world (Double Exposure) and dozens of other important and not-so-important events, all of which come together with non-metaplot events and developments (such as the emergence of Augmented Reality and wireless technologies or the appearance of alchaera) in the rich tapestry of an evolving and ongoing history.

There is a clean line, pretty much at Super Tuesday, where the outcome of a run would not have affected the entire mainstream perceptions of the world. What I mean by this, is if you look at Harlequin or Harlequin's back, all of the runs were in the shadows. Meaning they might make a single line in a screamsheet somewhere at most like 4 guards dead at the West wide of town, shadowrunners suspected to front page news like "The president was killed" Maybe it's just me and the players I hang around but the people I know were generally put off by the shift to a high profile. I think the closest we came before that to fame was Mercurial.

Nobody said it wasn't popular. Quite to the contrary SR3 was the overall bestselling and longest running edition of the game for a reason (despite the market slump).

This is just marketing spin. Roleplaying itself has become more popular. Shadowrun had lost overall marketshare. Mind you cyberpunk faired worse, but d20 ruled the era. I would have to look at numbers and market numbers to draw and real conclusions.

What I did say is that the format of the rulebooks wasn't popular, and that because even though they (a) included significantly more crunch, gears and advanced rules than the SR2 equivalents and (b) they expanded and updated the subsystems, they were in fact a dull and encyclopedic read. Meaning the problem wasn't the contents it was the lackluster and dry presentation. Also note that the setting books for SR3 also sold particularly well. Sales were good, despite the issues I pointed out. Which in turn is why with SR4 we followed SR3's best-selling model in terms of content but adapted the format to include what was lacking - ie. fluff. (and by fluff I mean everything that isn't crunch/rules, from information on the major players and sites to the current status quo and SOTA).

I still do not follow what you mean by crunch. the only definition I get is, everthing that is not fluff, and for fluff I get everything that is not crunch.
Many things were missing in the books, new exciting content, decent shadowtalk, quality artwork. The gear wasn't nearly as enhanced as you are leading me to believe. They really could have added so much new tech, and didn't deliver. Personally I found that the content was lackluster, not the formatting. Nothing of real substance was released in sr3.

For that to make sense the timeline would have to have been different. In reality Shadowrun 4 was released at GenCon 2005 almost 2 years before the XBox game came out, and a year before it was even presented to anyone outside FASA Studios.

I messed up te times a little, but the fact is it threw some momentum behind the game. Much like the original did for sr2.

That was a hard call but I continue to believe Rob made the right decision. Not only was the system percieved as too complex but it was littered with "legacy" bugs. An overhaul of the SR3 rules would have still left the impression that the game was fundamentally unaltered, remained complex and had a steep learning curve. We knew Shadowrun needed a fresh start to last another 20 years. Losing some diehard fans of the older rules was a gamble that needed to be taken, and one that more than paid off with not only a huge infusion of new blood into the fanbase but a return of many a gamer estranged by the previous edition's rules (ironically enough despite loving the fluff and setting.)

You will always break some eggs to make an omlet. I recognize that. If you ever manage to make 80% of the target base happy you have succeeded greatly. I think the execution of Rob's decisions sucked. I will mention that I don`t have all the pieces to the puzzle and I might have made some of the same decisions if I was in his shoes. I would have approached them differently.

[Abstruse]

I feel I should mention this, the blue text in the drafts is stuff I highlighted for "first cut" in the event of space issues...or whose character might be a bit much for the audience.

Too late, we already thoroughly hijacked this thread I believe (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[MindandPen]

The story bible was a work in progress on my desk when I left CGL. On the other hand, since the release of SR4 (and certainly since I stepped in after Rob moved on to Eclipse Phase) metaplots have been mapped out and brainstormed 3-4 years down the road. Emergence and what became Ghost Cartelswere concieved and brainstormed over 4 years ago. I had War! mapped out (although a very different plotline than what will see print) to follow on from the fallout of Ghost Cartels, then the Artifacts and followup campaign storyline, then a Horizon story, then the Space Elevator plotline would come to a head, and later down the line the follow up to the teasers left in by the Dream Seed/Ghost Cartels. Not sure how far ahead Jason's planning things these days, but I was definitely into mapping things as far ahead as possible and structuring the release schedule to support the current direction/plot of the game (ie. A Merc/Military or Espionage book to preceed a war campaign book)

Do we think there is a current Story Bible? Any chance of knowing what you HAD planned if it is no longer in the works?

-M&P

[MindandPen]

Here's the thing though. We didn't make two books with 50/50. We didn't even try. We (and by we I mean Rob Boyle and later myself) announced right off (following the release of SR4) that we were actually going to try to destill the 15+ books it took to cover things in SR2 and SR3 into only 5 corebooks in SR4 (besides the BBB). And that's what we did. Amazingly we not only crammed all that in (well, 90% of it) but we also still managed to add in the fluff that contextualizes the technologies and gear in the game world. So no, that was never the plan.

Personally, I think the way you did it with SR4 was the right mix, including keeping it to 5 books. I have some issues with some of the rules themselves, but I think you hit the right balance.

-M&P

[hermit]

I can't say that I fully subscribe to that notion. Give me some examples of where this exists in sr1. Look at Shadowbeat, NAN, Grimoire, please tell me where they were tied into the then current events and timelines instead of historic?

The sudden fall of the Soviet Union, the first background retcon in SR history, comes to mind. Though I don't think Synner wanted to stress this, I think his point was that the SR timeline itself was set to develop and evolve from the beginning, taking the setting and rules/crunch along. Evidence of this is plenty, from the Horror timeline going through most SR1/2 books somewhere to the development of cyber- and nanotech in Shadowtech via a few novels to Cybertech.

The biggest point where player decisions first mattered was a long way off, though, the Dunkelzahn election. However, even in SR1, with Harlekin, PC had a chance to change the world and do things that matter - and were picked up later in bits and pieces in official publications.

What I mean by this, is if you look at Harlequin or Harlequin's back, all of the runs were in the shadows. Meaning they might make a single line in a screamsheet somewhere

Sure, it didn't generate media attention for the runner, but since when does something have to be well media covered to have an impact on the world?

Maybe it's just me and the players I hang around but the people I know were generally put off by the shift to a high profile. I think the closest we came before that to fame was Mercurial.

Where would you gain fame in Brainscan, the last major campaign book in SR3? Reku would be out to kill you, but they'd hardly announce it publically. I don't see where you come from there.

Also, what about Euphoria? It has the runners star in a box office hit simsense. Isn't that fame, too?

I recognize that. If you ever manage to make 80% of the target base happy you have succeeded greatly.

It appears they did. Just, you're one of the remaining 20%, apparently.

[Synner667]

Personally, if they wanted to make a point of an evolving and growing world of Shadowrun, why didn't they do it properly...
...With proper annual updates in the form of a compendium - news, gear, locations, etc.

I know they did this with State of the Art, but surely that would have been the best vector for such a growing world ??

That would have let stories and gear and ideas develop in a more natural way.

It worked reasonably well for TORG and their infiniverse newsletter.