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> Bonus Attribute Point / Exceptional Attribute Edge
mmu1
post Feb 22 2004, 08:51 PM
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I need a clarification on something... Let's say I have a human character with a Body of 6. I then decide to take the "Bonus Attribute Point" edge at character generation, and apply it to Body - does it then a) go up to 7, or b) I also need "Exceptional Attribute" to be able to raise it that way?

I've been using NSRCG for character generation, and it seems to go with option a) but I wanted to double-check...
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Sphynx
post Feb 22 2004, 08:58 PM
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Need Exceptional to put 7 points into a stat.

7th point can only be done with Bonus.

Sphynx
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Shockwave_IIc
post Feb 22 2004, 09:28 PM
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You sure thats right Sphynx? I always thought (wrongly?) You can bonus Attribute a human stat to 7 without the need of Exceptional Attribute?
Exceptional attribute just allowed you take it to 7 later without incuring the triple karma costs.

You can take one and/or the other if your wanting to. I say this cos i have an Ork with a starting INT of 6 via bonus Attribute and no one i shown on here has said anything about it. but because i haven't taken exceptional attribute for her, her max INT is still only 8.

Have i done this wrong?
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L.D
post Feb 22 2004, 09:31 PM
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Exceptional Attribute is needed to be able to have 7 in a stat at chargen. But you don't need the Bonus Attribute Point.

Edit: I brought out my book and after reading about both edges I'm gonna have to change that.

QUOTE (Bonus Attribute Point)
A bonus Attribute Point can be used to raise the character's starting Attribute above the Racial Modified Limit (see Exceptional Attribute below and Improving Attributes on p. 244 of SR3


To me that sounds like you don't actually need Exceptional Atrribute to be able to have a stat higher than your Racial Modified Limit.
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mmu1
post Feb 22 2004, 09:38 PM
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QUOTE (Shockwave_IIc)
You sure thats right Sphynx? I always thought (wrongly?) You can bonus Attribute a human stat to 7 without the need of Exceptional Attribute?
Exceptional attribute just allowed you take it to 7 later without incuring the triple karma costs.

You can take one and/or the other if your wanting to. I say this cos i have an Ork with a starting INT of 6 via bonus Attribute and no one i shown on here has said anything about it. but because i haven't taken exceptional attribute for her, her max INT is still only 8.

Have i done this wrong?

That's what I'm wondering about...

The Shadowrun Companion description for the edge says Bonus Attribute Point lets you raise a stat above the Racial Modified Limit... What's the point of that sentence if you also needed Exceptional Attribute to use it - if you take Exceptional Attribute, you're no longer raising a stat above its RML...
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Lilt
post Feb 22 2004, 09:52 PM
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QUOTE (Bonus Attribute Point @ P17, SRC)
A bonus Attribute point can be used to raise the character's starting Attribute above the Racial Modified Limit

Seems you don't need Exceptional Attribute to raise an attribute to 7.

Exceptional Attribute point can't be used directly to raise an attribute to 7. This is due to the fact that you still can't put more than 6 points into any one attribute. It can be useful for adepts, however, where ther Improved Physical Attribute power costs more to raise over the racially modified maximum. People can also use it for the attribute max boost... In conjunction with bioware, it allows Humans to start with 11 Strength or Quickness. Anyone later in the game hoping to take their attribute up to the max with karma will be able to increase it further too.
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Glyph
post Feb 22 2004, 10:22 PM
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Exactly. A common misconception that people have is that they can take Exceptional Attribute, spend 7 points on it, then take Bonus Attribute Point to raise it to 8. It doesn't work that way.
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toturi
post Feb 23 2004, 02:34 AM
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It is a gray area I would feel. The SR3 Core Rulebook states no more than 6 Attribute points per Attribute. While SRComp does not imply a change either way, there is a curious thing about Attributes in Matrix(Otaku). RML(mental) for otaku are increased, but they are not allowed to spend more than 6 per mental Attribute! And they are given 2 more Attribute points(that they might not be able to spend anyway) to spend if they are really weak!

I think it is time someone asked for a clarification on the 1-6 Attribute points per Attribute rule or clarify the Exceptional Attribute rule.
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Tziluthi
post Feb 23 2004, 02:37 AM
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Edit: I agree with toturi.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 23 2004, 02:41 AM
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I think the intention was to allow Otaku to take their attributes up to 7 or 8, but I have a friend who disagrees, claiming that it's more to allow them to increase their stats later for less karma.

~J
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Glyph
post Feb 23 2004, 06:28 AM
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The improved RML for otaku is a grey area, but the two bonus points should be treated the same as a Racial Modifer in my opinion. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense, since you only get it if you max out your mental Attributes to start with.
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Digital Heroin
post Feb 23 2004, 07:15 AM
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Bonus Attribute Point adds a point to any stat, regardless of what it is... it's a bonus, thus can superceed the ruling for only 6 in a stat. Thus you can put something to 7. Still, you are bound by the Racial Maximum, as if you were spending Karma. Exceptional Attribute raises that maximum, but does not add a point to the stat. The two together cause a raise in the stat, and raise the Racial Maximum.
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Digital Heroin
post Feb 23 2004, 07:18 AM
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QUOTE (Sphynx)
Need Exceptional to put 7 points into a stat.

7th point can only be done with Bonus.

Sphynx

If that was the case, then there wouldn't be two Edges, they would be a combined four point Edge, or they'd be useless on their own.
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Siege
post Feb 23 2004, 07:23 AM
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I'm siding with Digital Heroin on this one.

The +2 Bonus Attribute increases a single Stat by one, up to the Racial Max. In humans, that's 6 x 1.5 = 9.

The Exceptional Attribute raises the threshold or maximum possible rating -- in this case, 7 with a maximum of 11. (they rounded up -- I tend to round down)

Now, if a player bought "exceptional attribute", I'd say they could raise the starting max of that stat by one point. A human with "Exceptional Attribute" Strength could have a starting max of 7, provided he put seven attribute points into that Stat.

Even if the human only put 5 or 6 points in, by virtue of that Edge, the player could theoretically raise the stat to it's highest possible max (11).

-Siege
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mfb
post Feb 23 2004, 07:46 AM
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i've always allowed characters to put 8 total points into a stat, if they use both edges. sure, it makes for more 'munchkin' characters--but someone who chooses both of those edges for the same stat will eventually 'munchkin' out their character anyway; i don't really see that it makes huge difference in the long run.
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BitBasher
post Feb 23 2004, 05:49 PM
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Actually it does make a pretty huge difference, that being they have to pay to raise a stat above racial maximum which costs a premium amount of karma.
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Raptor1033
post Feb 24 2004, 06:08 AM
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wow, our group has been misreading those two for the past two years, but i don't see any reason to shake things up at the moment. we've been allowing bonus to let you start with a stat at 7 and exceptional would let a human get a stat to 10 instead of 9.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 24 2004, 06:11 AM
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Well, the first bit is true no matter what interpretation you use. The second isn't accurate, Exceptional allows a human to get to 11, not 10.

~J
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The White Dwarf
post Feb 24 2004, 09:36 AM
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Well, Tortui really hit it on the head. Ive always interpreted the Otaku bonus as a racial modifier, but upon re-reading it Ive found it to be very much not the case.

As worded, the Otaku modifiers only change the Racial Modified Limit, and Attribute Maximums; *not* the actual values of those attributes. They do indeed get extra attribute points to spend there, but it doesnt explicitly state you may then assign over 6 points to an individual attribute.

The edge functions the same way, with Exceptional Attribute raising the cap, but not explicitly stating that you may then spend 7 attribute points in that attribute.

Clarification is very much needed here, as it could have great impact on the game.

(Bonus Attribute Point is specifically stated as allowing itself as a "7th" attribute point above and beyond the cap, as has been stated before)
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Wu Jen
post Feb 24 2004, 10:46 AM
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Load up NSRCG and try it. If you pick Bonus attribute it allows a human to go above 6 to 7. If you pick Exceptional Attribute it allows you to put one of your attribute points into a stat and get to 7. If you pick both you can have a stat at 8 for human. If you pick albino for a human and put both exceptional and bonus attrib to will you can start with 9 willpower as a human. (or 10 as a dwarf! Try to nuke me mage!)
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Lilt
post Feb 24 2004, 11:05 AM
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Yes, but "I can do it in NSRCG" isn't hard proof that it's right. McMackie is only human and he's as likely to misread the rules as anyone else.

I do agree with toturi about needing clarification, and IMHO the author meant for the edge to allow players to put a 7th attribute point in a stat.
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Zazen
post Feb 24 2004, 04:12 PM
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Oy, some of the most screwed-up stuff has come to me on those NSRCG printout sheets. It fucks up constantly.
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JongWK
post Feb 24 2004, 04:53 PM
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This is how we use it in Uruguay:

Bonus Attribute Point allows you to put a 7th point in an attribute at character generation, exceeding the Racial Modified Limit (which remains unchanged, same as his Attribute Maximum).

Example #1:
Human mages uses BAP to raise his starting Willpower to 7. His Racial Modified Limit is still 6, and his Attribute Maximum is still 9 (6 x 1.5).


Exceptional Attribute raises the Racial Modified Limit by one notch, allowing a character to raise that attribute without paying the additional karma cost.

Example #2:
A human mage normally needs 21 Good Karma to raise Willlpower from 6 to 7 (new rating x 3). With this Edge, he only pays 14 Good Karma for it(new rating x 2). If he wants to later on raise his Willpower to 8, he is exceeding his new Racial Modifier Limit, so the cost is 24 Good Karma (8 x 3)


As an additional result, variables like the Attribute Maximum change.

Example #3:
An elf character has a Quickness Maximum of 11 (7 x 1.5), but if he takes Exceptional Attribute, his maximum becomes 12 (8 x 1.5).


Exceptional Attribute does not allow you to put a 7th point during character generation. It costs the same as BAP, but it gives you different benefits.


So why picking one over the other?

The way I look at it, BAP gives you an instant benefit you can use. Meanwhile, EA is aimed at those who want to seriously develop that attribute in a game, and for those whose Racial Modified Limits and Attribute Maximums do matter (say, an Adept).

Hope that helps. :talker:


Now, regarding Otaku that take the physical handicap to pump up their mental attributes... I allow Otaku to spend points up to the new limit (7 or 8, depending on the severity of the physical handicap).

Why? Because a 13 years old child, with physical attributes starting at 1, is a liability to any shadowrunning team and to himself. He can't get involved into any fight without getting seriously injured, his combat skills are low to nil (remember they're linked to physical attributes!), his Athletics and Stealth are ridiculously low or expensive to get, they tire easily, can't carry much gear, etc.

Example #4:
A shadowrunning team is extracting their target during a visit to Fort Lewis' Zoo. To create a distraction, the Otaku deactivates (on site) the security sensors of the Sabertooth Tigers (remember that the Zoo has no fences: the animals have chips that unleash massive pain as soon as sensors detect them approaching a security line).

While the rest of the team is dealing with the target's bodyguards, the Otaku starts walking towards the escape van. She can't run for more than one turn and moves at a very slow pace. In the chaos that is the zoo, she meets a hungry Sbaertooth Tiger, staring at her...

See what I mean?
(If you're having flashbacks of Aliens' Newt dodging the Queen aboard the Sulaco, you're right :vegm: )

The girl was so happy when the shaman came to the rescue with a Stun Bolt. No power armor, sadly. ;)
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Bearclaw
post Feb 24 2004, 04:59 PM
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The bonus stat rule is pretty clearly defined. I'm not sure how more clear you can be. I had mis interpretted it until I read it again.
It clearly says that the bonus stat point can raise the stat above the racial modified limit.

So, according to the rules, without adding any words to them, you can take exceptional attribute, raise the stat to 7, then take a bonus attribute point and raise it to 8. That's canon. Everything else is a house rule. I don't really like it much, and I've been house ruling it, but that's the rule.
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Shockwave_IIc
post Feb 24 2004, 05:02 PM
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I aways thought that some where in the basic rules it said you Can't assign more then 6 points to a stat before racial modifiers. Granted i beleive it should be ignored in the case of Otaku but then i'm biased
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