Infiltration vs Astral Perception, Looking for a bit of a clarification... Options

[Bladehate]

...how exactly does Infiltration interact with Astral Perception and Astral beings?

The actual descriptions are extremely vague. Granted, I'm basing my question around a First Print SR4 book but I couldn't really find anything in the errata that clarified things for me.

The common consensus at the table I'm at right now is that Astral Perception pretty much void Infiltration. IE if you are in LoS of a mage with Astral Perception or who has gone astral you are automatically seen as per the description on SR4 page 182 concerning Astral Forms and Auras being "bright and vibrant, thus being obvious to see". Yeah, it states that Auras are less bright then Astral Forms but they are still described as fairly obvious. But as it stands right now, it seems like mages are pretty much a hard counter to any stealther (assuming LoS and a simple action to shift to Astral Perception).

Can anyone clarify for me exactly how Infiltration and Astral Perception are run? What about Invisibility and the Astral? References are welcome.

[Yerameyahu]

Remember that basically all cover still applies in astral, plus transparent things (windows). Infiltration is a wide range of skills and tactics, which includes hiding behind things; it all depends on the situation.

Invisibility is extra visible in the astral, because it's a sustained spell.

[Bladehate]

Well, a great deal of stealth also involves being where you're not supposed to be or looking like something not human.

Examples are gillie suits, camo suits (ruthenium) or perhaps hanging suspended from the ceiling and also hiding in shadows.

Many of these things seem to be neatly defeated by Astral Perception. A mage shifting to astral turns a stealther into a bright, rainbow colored cartoon cutout. Yes, terrain can still get in the way...but many of the normal tactics and tools don't seem particularly valid.

That's if I'm reading this right?

[Yerameyahu]

It's true that the tactics are different. In an open field with a ghillie sniper, astral sight will spot him as an Obvious target; in other terrain (indoors, rough urban, etc.), astral sight is no better than physical sight. You just have to keep track of the situation, because camo isn't the only thing Infiltration does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mr. Unpronouncea...]

Astral perception certainly doesn't void infiltration.

Invisibility won't help on the astral at all (from the spell description: "Her aura is still visible to astral perception")...some would argue that the addition of the spell's aura would make it harder to sneak.

OTOH, most of the same rules apply to astral perception vs. standard perception - if you're standing in LoS of someone, they pretty much see you, period. (Though astral perception requires the non-defaultable assensing skill, not the perception skill)

If you're actually trying to sneak, however:

You can try to blend in with other auras (a mage or spirit would have a pretty tough time picking out the shadowrunner simply walking down the hall among the wageslaves, for instance...or from the potted plant in the case of something as thick as a watcher spirit.)

You can try to block line of sight (which is actually a bit easier, as not only do things like couches & walls block LoS on the astral, but so do simple glass panels, as well as some types of wards.)


Worst case for a mundane is an astral-presence-only spirit with a good vantage point...and you still really aren't any worse off than you would be vs. a motion-detector, chemsniffer, or other sensor you're unaware of.

[Yerameyahu]

Mm, good point: Infiltration includes hiding in crowds. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hobgoblin]

i guess the single biggest problem is that if one have a watcher or other spirit playing guard in some location, a mundane cant tell as the room would look empty.

[Apathy]

If you knew that the guards were *only* present astrally, then they could be defeated by simply hiding inside a cardboard box and scooting along.

As far a camoflage goes: it seems largely a matter of GM discretion how far away from your physical body your aura extends. Normal clothing can't hide it, but a 1/4 inch thick piece of cardboard can. I would imagine that it wouldn't be that hard to do variations of the cardboard box trick that didn't limit your mobility too much or make you stand out in the physical world that bad, but at least give an astral perciever a partial cover penalties.

[tagz]

We've been through this a few times before. I remember debating it quite a lot actually.

The basic idea is this:

Infiltration used by a mundane still works against astral observers, regardless if the mundane is aware of astral security or not. Just like with cameras.

Astral observers can receive perception bonuses for contrast. IE: a living thing against a background being primarily comprised of unliving things, or vice versa. A person sneaking in a warehouse is easier to spot on astral then a person sneaking in a forest. Why? Because the colorful aura stands out against gray boxes and concrete but not as much against plant life that also has auras. Sounds a lot like regular camouflage rules to me. Conversely, some GMs may with to give perception penalties to a spirit if they are perceiving auras against other auras as it could act as a camouflage.

Astral observers can receive a perception bonus for superior positioning. Basically a bonus the spirit gets from making the perception check in a place that has a higher chance of seeing something. Such as on a catwalk. This is no different then regular perception, as this bonus could be applied to ANYONE who has a superior position, the only difference here is the mundane might not be able to see the observer as it could be on the astral.

Shadows are still visible in the astral. Just as visible, really. You can still see gray objects can't you? They lack DETAIL, but not shape, form, or movement. Assensing can still be used on them as well. This means the cardboard box idea isn't as great as it sounds. A spirit can still say "that box doesn't belong here", or they could see it moving, or they could notice it's not in the same place as before. Just like a normal security force. Though it could work in a place that has lots of cardboard boxes.

A GM can rule that something is "Immediately Noticeable" and requires no roll to see. In my games this comes up as EXTREAMLY superior positioning, like standing in front of a door at the end of straight hallway that has no visual obstructions, or in the event of a critical glitch or something. This is also no different then regular perception other then the mundane might not get a chance to see the spirit.


The only big difference here is that the sneaker might not get a chance to see potential observers and avoid them. If you aren't already having infiltrators make multiple perception rolls and let them pick different paths when infiltrating, then you shouldn't make them with astral. If you are, then it's not much different then having a camera in a place they can't see.

[Bladehate]

All right.

Thanks for these tips, and I'm sorry if its been gone over before.

It still seems like Astral Perception is rather strong against especially mundane stealthers, since it negates things like ruthenium, thermal compensation, etc.

I'll bring up these points to my current GM though (I'm playing a stealther obviously =P), and see what he has to say.

[Banaticus]

Basically, the only thing is to express as a magician, mystic adept, or adept, initiate and pick up the Masking metamagic technique. It's basically the only way to actually hide from a dual natured person (from someone who's viewing the physical and astral planes at the same time). Latent Awakening is only 5 BP, so you could pick that quality up for only 10 karma.

New positive quality = (BP Cost x 2) in karma
SR4A p270

Latent Awakening (5 BP)
A character who takes the Latent Awakening quality starts the game as a mundane but may Awaken later and become magically active. At the start of the game, the character does not possess a Magic attribute and may not invest BPs in magical skills, spells, or bound spirits. The character may not have the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality.
At some point during gameplay, the gamemaster may decide that the character Awakens. This decision is completely in the gamemaster’s hands, and should be based entirely on creating a good story—and if the player is surprised, even better. Keep in mind that this is a chance for the player to roleplay the process of becoming magical—it should be a slow path filled with confusion, fear, and the sudden awareness of an entirely new world. It should not be viewed as a get-badass-quick power boost. The character is not likely to understand how to use or control his powers at first, and may need to seek the guidance of others.
When the gamemaster decides the character has Awakened, the character immediately gains a Magic attribute of 1. If the character has an Essence lower than 6 (due to implants or other causes), he still starts with a Magic of 1, but his maximum Magic attribute is adjusted according to the Essence loss. If the character’s Essence is less than 1, he has lost any chance to be Awakened.
The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character. This quality defines how the character has Awakened. The gamemaster should not, however, tell the player which quality the character has gained until the character figures it out for himself. This quality does not come free, of course. The character must pay for the quality with Karma, at a cost of (the quality’s BP Cost – 5) x 2. For example, the Mystic Adept quality would cost 10 Karma (10 BP – 5 = 5, x 2). If the character does not have Karma available at that time, the gamemaster immediately collects it from any Karma rewards he earns until the debt is paid off.
The gamemaster may also choose one spell, adept power, or spirit type (as appropriate for the character’s tradition) for the character to start with. It is highly possible that this is the magical power that character expresses when he Awakens. Keep in mind that many Awakenings occur as a result of stress—losing a loved one, being attacked, and so on. The character will not know how to cast this spell, conjure this spirit, or use that power until he has had proper training, of course—it is merely an accidental expression of the character’s Talent, controlled entirely by the gamemaster. The gamemaster can, in fact, treat the character as if he has the Cursed quality for a limited period (and without the bonus BP), until he gets his magic under control.
If the gamemaster allows it, the character may also acquire other Magic-required qualities when he Awakens, such as the Mentor Spirit quality. The gamemaster chooses which qualities (positive or negative) to apply. These qualities must also be paid for—simply add the BP cost of all qualities together before subtracting 5 and multiplying by 2 for the Karma cost, as noted above.
Once the character has Awakened, he may learn and improve the Magic attribute, magical skills, spells, and other magical abilities normally, as dictated by his type of Awakening.
SM p25

[CanadianWolverin...]

You can actually use the astral's emphasis on auras against it for an inflitration bonus in some situations: Release a large group of pests / animals (perhaps even metahumans? pull the fire alarm or something?) into the target area, give the astral security a bunch of false positives to go after as distractions.

Oh and if you are playing a infiltrator specialist, I highly suggest the move The Hunted as some entertainment to inspire one with fun ideas on infiltration in multiple environs - one of my favourites was learning it is possible to "disappear" in a crowd just by lowering your head height below the average head height of the crowd, I think that was in one of the extras on the dvd. The Bourne movie series and the tv show Burn Notice also had some fun observations of various infiltration methods as well - and surely you know about something like the game series Thief and Splinter Cell ... hmm, Deus Ex might be a good one too for ideas on infiltration in a cybered up world. Hope some of entertainment that helps this entertaining activity as you play a HideNGoSeek specialist character.

Oh, and here you go, another thread where we hashed back and forth on this subject before:
Sneaking vs. Magic - The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner

[tagz]

Yeah, good thread. I loved that debate. Especially when I got all existential about the Aura bleedthrough on armor. I still say hold my position on that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Shinobi Killfist]

All right.

Thanks for these tips, and I'm sorry if its been gone over before.

It still seems like Astral Perception is rather strong against especially mundane stealthers, since it negates things like ruthenium, thermal compensation, etc.

I'll bring up these points to my current GM though (I'm playing a stealther obviously =P), and see what he has to say.

Well on the other side you aren't really getting bonus dice with astral perception either. We have people rolling 16 dice in visual perception, our assensing is 8 dice.

[Bladehate]

Thanks for that link!

I did all kinds of searches on Infiltration, stealth and astral perception but that one didn't come up...I dunno how I missed it.

[tagz]

Search function here is hit or miss. Just using a synonym for a term might net you totally different results.

[Mordinvan]

It's true that the tactics are different. In an open field with a ghillie sniper, astral sight will spot him as an Obvious target; in other terrain (indoors, rough urban, etc.), astral sight is no better than physical sight. You just have to keep track of the situation, because camo isn't the only thing Infiltration does. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Actually you're better off in a field, especially one with plant life, as you stand a chance of blending into the aura's of the plants. In a urban environment, you're hooped, as its possible you're the only living thing in your immediate vicinity.

[Yerameyahu]

Could be. I dunno what the aura of grass looks like. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I meant 'open area with no cover', but yeah.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

If you knew that the guards were *only* present astrally, then they could be defeated by simply hiding inside a cardboard box and scooting along.

Yes, Snake was RIGHT ALL ALONG! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Haha. I think it would still look like a moving cardboard box, just shadowy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hobgoblin]

heh, could be a drone (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

and how would a spirit know?

[Yerameyahu]

How would it know that it's not a cardboard box drone? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Oh jeez.

[Muspellsheimr]

Tagz covered it nicely, but I will go over it again for more specifics anyways.

Astral Perception in no way nullifies the Perception test necessary to locate an infiltrating character; it essentially functions as a normal Perception vs. Infiltration opposed test.

The key differences are that it uses an Astral Perception test in place of Perception (Assensing + Intuition), it uses a typically different set of 'visual' modifiers found in Street Magic, and certain modifiers to Perception tests do not apply (such as a Chameleon Suit or Audio Enhancement).

Some things to keep in mind for perception tests of all kinds are a few commonly overlooked modifiers.

• Perceiving Character Distracted: If the perceiving character is not taking the Observe in Detail action (typically a Standard action), they suffer a -2 dice pool modifier to the perception test.
• Stands Out In Some Way: If the object/event being perceived has strong contrast to the background (such as florescent neon lights in a dark ally), the perceiver gains a +2 dice pool modifier to the perception test.
• Perceiving Character Actively Searching: If the perceiving character is 'looking' for a specific object/event, they receive a +3 dice pool modifier on perception tests made to find that specific object/event (such perception tests should never return information on something other than the searched for object/event - instead a separate perception test should be made with a -2 Perceiving Character Distracted modifier).

Also remember that a dice pool of 0 means the character "cannot succeed". In simple terms, Joe Average will never notice something that does not stand out unless actively looking around. In addition, some things are deemed "Immediately Obvious", and to not require a test to locate. I suggest the following rulings:

• A perceiving character cannot notice anything they have a dice pool of 0 in regards to [exception: Immediately Obvious below]
• If a character is not infiltrating, or rolls 0 hits on an Infiltration test, they are automatically noticed by any character with a perception dice pool of 1 or greater in regards to them
• If a character glitches on an Infiltration test, any perceiving characers receive a +2 Stands Out modifier to Perception tests made to locate the infiltrating character.
• If a character critically glitches on an Infiltration test, they are considered "Immediately Obvious", and automatically noticed by all other characters in sensory range.

Basically, the only thing is to express as a magician, mystic adept, or adept, initiate and pick up the Masking metamagic technique. It's basically the only way to actually hide from a dual natured person (from someone who's viewing the physical and astral planes at the same time). Latent Awakening is only 5 BP, so you could pick that quality up for only 10 karma.

This is bullshit. Not only is Masking unnecessary, it does not in any way hide a character's aura - it disguises it to look like another type of aura.

[IKerensky]

Err I am sorry but hiding behind physical unliving cover wont block LOS in astral.

All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.

[Rotbart van Dain...]

No.

All things are opaque on astral, even glass.