Infiltration vs Astral Perception, Looking for a bit of a clarification... Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Err I am sorry but hiding behind physical unliving cover wont block LOS in astral.

All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.

Street Magic Disagrees with you on that...

Page 114 of Street Magic, Last Paragraph of the Astral Visibility Section.

Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura.

Keep the Faith

[Traul]

Has this not changed from SR3 to SR4? Astral vision used to see through walls in our SR3 game, but I don't know whether it is cannon or not.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Has this not changed from SR3 to SR4? Astral vision used to see through walls in our SR3 game, but I don't know whether it is cannon or not.

Walls are Opaque on the Astral... Says so in the book...
Can't remember about 3rd Edition (My Books were all stolen), But I was always under the impression they were opaque even in that Edition; at least that was how we played it...

Keep the Faith

[sn0mm1s]

If you use the latest FAQ then mundanes can't use infiltrate on the astral.

Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?

Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless. Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers. Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target.

The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like.

[Summerstorm]

Has this not changed from SR3 to SR4? Astral vision used to see through walls in our SR3 game, but I don't know whether it is cannon or not.

Nope.. in 3rd you couldn't look through stuff either. I only know that there was a lot of discussion if you could watch trough glass on the astral. Some seid: no it is dense material, other said: yes, since it is manufactured to be "invisible" - but since robots and machine do the forming, even that might not count.

Ah well, now you can look through it, but maybe not that well. As long as i know 2nd and 3rd edition to 4th there was no change: No free lookie-lookie in astral through everything.

[Yerameyahu]

I still say all cover-based stealth is fine, and is a use of Infiltration. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

If you use the latest FAQ then mundanes can't use infiltrate on the astral.

When a Frequently Asked Questions document extends beyond its purview, its legitimacy is effectively nullified. The definitions for an FAQ and Erratum have already been given, and the FAQ very clearly fails in it's purpose in multiple instances. The author of the FAQ has even confirmed this distinct difference between the two.

Errors in any work are inevitable. Whether typographic (read: somebody slipped on the keyboard and nobody caught it), mathematical (read: somebody screwed up the calculations or formula and nobody caught it), or logical (read: somebody wrote something that didn't make any damn sense, or contradicted something written somewhere else, and either nobody read it or nobody caught it) errors creep into every product. Errata is supposed to fix those errors, to examine the situation and add corrects or rewrite entirely depending on the significance of the error and its effects on gameplay. This is really what differentiates it from FAQ: a good FAQ should explain, elucidate, provide examples for, and sometimes elaborate on a rule, but it shouldn't create new rules or "fix" old ones. That's what errata is for.

As such, personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The current FAQ is not a viable source for rules debate, and should be (generally will be) thoroughly ignored.

Further, the FAQ is in this instance poorly written but specifically addressing Infiltrating on the astral plane (literally infiltration by astral beings), which is very clearly not possible unless you have access to the astral plane.

It does not address observing the normal use of infiltration from the astral plane.

[sn0mm1s]

As such, personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The current FAQ is not a viable source for rules debate, and should be (generally will be) thoroughly ignored.

Further, the FAQ is in this instance poorly written but specifically addressing Infiltrating on the astral plane (literally infiltration by astral beings), which is very clearly not possible unless you have access to the astral plane.

It does not address observing the normal use of infiltration from the astral plane.

First off, I am not arguing whether or not the FAQ is a valid document which is why I said IF you use the FAQ.

Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always. According to the FAQ, to infiltrate on the astral plane you either must be projecting or perceiving. Why would stealth "be nearly useless" on the astral only when you can see the astral plane and see those looking for you on said plane? Why make a specific example for how a dual natured being uses stealth on the astral?

By RAW, infiltration works against astral as well as the material. By the FAQ that isn't the case. I don't care which one you choose to use.

[TheOOB]

I usually rule that the penalty for not being able to see the astral being who you are sneaking past is matched by the penalty the astral being has because they are no really paying that much attention to the physical word, and aura's don't really capture their attention anyways. Spirits on patrol are looking for astral threats, they don't know that this in paticular aura isn't an authorized one.

[DireRadiant]

First off, I am not arguing whether or not the FAQ is a valid document which is why I said IF you use the FAQ.

Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always. According to the FAQ, to infiltrate on the astral plane you either must be projecting or perceiving. Why would stealth "be nearly useless" on the astral only when you can see the astral plane and see those looking for you on said plane? Why make a specific example for how a dual natured being uses stealth on the astral?

By RAW, infiltration works against astral as well as the material. By the FAQ that isn't the case. I don't care which one you choose to use.

The FAQ gives two conditions explicitly, Astrally Projecting and Dual Natured. It makes absolutely no statement whatsoever about mundanes, who are neither dual natured nor astrally projecting. The use of Infiltration astrally by mundanes is not covered in the FAQ.

Edit: And the question is "Can Stealth group be used on the astral?" which provides a slightly different context, in that it the question is about an astrally active entity using the stealth group on the astral plane, which is different then the situation presented in the OP which is about astral perception versus mundane use of the stealth group in the physical plane.

[Muspellsheimr]

Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always.

A mundane has an aura on the astral plane - comparable to a reflection or a shadow. They do not actually exist on the astral - only creatures possessing an astral form do so, such as a dual natured creature or a projecting magician.

And again, the FAQ was poorly written, but specifically addressing the use of Infiltration by a character that possesses an astral form and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

[sn0mm1s]

A mundane has an aura on the astral plane - comparable to a reflection or a shadow. They do not actually exist on the astral - only creatures possessing an astral form do so, such as a dual natured creature or a projecting magician.

And again, the FAQ was poorly written, but specifically addressing the use of Infiltration by a character that possesses an astral form and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.

There is no functional difference between a mundane and a dual natured being using stealth. The being takes up the same location and its movements are limited what they can do on the material plane. The aura of the being exists on the astral and again that is functionally the same (in terms of stealth) as the being on the astral plane. Are you going to tell me that a perceiving being can't target a mundane in astral space with a gun? That the aura isn't on the astral plane? You are making no sense - *what* is the difference as far as stealth between an adept with Astral Perception vs. one without using stealth against other astral perceivers - none. What is the difference between a complete mundane using stealth vs. an adept w/o Astral Perception - none. So when is using stealth on the astral "useless". Why even say it is useless if, as you are arguing that the FAQ only applies to beings aware of the astral, the beings using stealth can use it absolutely fine. Hell, a mage astrally projecting probably is *better* at stealthing than they would be in their meat body.

"All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless." - this applies to everything. Meaning an living mundane displays a vibrant aura making his attempts at stealth useless. His *aura* is visible just fine on the astral.

"Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers." - After stating that stealth is useless, the FAQ shows the cases where stealth can be used. This follows the whole general rule/exception mantra that so many people repeat on the board.

General Rule: Stealth is useless on the astral.
Exception: Projecting beings can use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition
Exception: Dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility.

[DireRadiant]

General Rule: Stealth is useless on the astral.

Are you basing this general rule on the FAQ question ""Can Stealth group be used on the astral?" or on some other source you can cite?

[sn0mm1s]

Are you basing this general rule on the FAQ question ""Can Stealth group be used on the astral?" or on some other source you can cite?

The FAQ, but as I said by RAW infiltration works everywhere on everything. By the FAQ you must be aware of the astral to use stealth against anything astral - otherwise the entire question and answer makes absolutely no sense.

[DireRadiant]

Personally I would look at the question "Can X be used on the astral?" and think that it does not apply to a situation where someone on the physical plane is doing something that is an opposed test to astral perception.

For example; Can I Hack on the Astral?, Can I Drive on the Astral? These don't mean much since they require additional conditions in order to apply. Can I Fight on the Astral? Extensive rules exist for that. It's usually understood to be the astral combat rules, for which there are astral projections, astral entities, and dual natured participants acting on the astral plane. Does the meaning of "On the astral" change to astral perception of the mundane world simply because we are talking about Stealth Group?

Edit: Understanding the assumptions you apply to the meaning of the questions provide context for the answer. Which still only explicitly mentions Astral Projections and Dual Natured mechanics, and makes no reference whatsoever to mundanes. Are Mundane Astral Stealth mechanics left out because you do not generally get Mundanes On the Astral plane and thus it's not relevant to the question, or are the mechanics not included because Mundanes can't use stealth against astral perception, in which case why not just state that.

[sn0mm1s]

Personally I would look at the question "Can X be used on the astral?" and think that it does not apply to a situation where someone on the physical plane is doing something that is an opposed test to astral perception.

For example; Can I Hack on the Astral?, Can I Drive on the Astral? These don't mean much since they require additional conditions in order to apply. Can I Fight on the Astral? Extensive rules exist for that. It's usually understood to be the astral combat rules, for which there are astral projections, astral entities, and dual natured participants acting on the astral plane. Does the meaning of "On the astral" change to astral perception of the mundane world simply because we are talking about Stealth Group?

Edit: Understanding the assumptions you apply to the meaning of the questions provide context for the answer. Which still only explicitly mentions Astral Projections and Dual Natured mechanics, and makes no reference whatsoever to mundanes. Are Mundane Astral Stealth mechanics left out because you do not generally get Mundanes On the Astral plane and thus it's not relevant to the question, or are the mechanics not included because Mundanes can't use stealth against astral perception, in which case why not just state that.

Except it does make a reference to mundanes. In fact, it goes even further to say *all* living and magical things have auras that make stealth useless. Mundane metahumans are a subset of living things.

[DireRadiant]

Except it does make a reference to mundanes. In fact, it goes even further to say *all* living and magical things have auras that make stealth useless. Mundane metahumans are a subset of living things.

So let's go through this.

"Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?" You take this can refer to someone using physical world stealth against an astral observer and not a question of can I do X on the astral.

"Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless." From this you infer that no mundanes can use stealth against astral observers. I see a general statement on how the astral is percieved.

" Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers." Note the mechanics here only apply to Astral Projecting and Dual natured using Stealth on the astral. No mention of Mundanes at all. Also note the "Hide in astral space" in the first sentence, this is explicitly about a full astral form using a skill in the astral against astral observers. Then it goes on to a sentence about dual natured characters using stealth against astral observers. Nowhere is a Mundane against astral observers mentioned.

"Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target." Straightforward, when using astral perception, use astral perception modifiers. However, if you read on astral visibility in Street Magic, several times it is explicitly stated that physical world cover and modifiers can still apply. Does this mean a mundane character could get physical world modifiers and cover, but not the skill at all?

"The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like." This is interesting since it only refers to palming items that in themselves have an astral form, so it seems to be a case of an astral form hiding/"palming" another astral form. No mention of concealing mundane items from astral perception.

[TommyTwoToes]

There is no functional difference between a mundane and a dual natured being using stealth. The being takes up the same location and its movements are limited what they can do on the material plane. The aura of the being exists on the astral and again that is functionally the same (in terms of stealth) as the being on the astral plane. Are you going to tell me that a perceiving being can't target a mundane in astral space with a gun? That the aura isn't on the astral plane? You are making no sense - *what* is the difference as far as stealth between an adept with Astral Perception vs. one without using stealth against other astral perceivers - none. What is the difference between a complete mundane using stealth vs. an adept w/o Astral Perception - none. So when is using stealth on the astral "useless". Why even say it is useless if, as you are arguing that the FAQ only applies to beings aware of the astral, the beings using stealth can use it absolutely fine. Hell, a mage astrally projecting probably is *better* at stealthing than they would be in their meat body.

Except the being that cannot and never has been able to use Astral Perception should be unable to hide from astral sight. Can you, right now, where ever you are sitting hide your true emotional state on the Astral? No, because you can't know what you are showing, what the environment around you shows. Its like a person who was born blind trying to hide. Or more extreme, a blind person raised by blind people, who has only ever heard stories of sighted people (less than 1% of the population) trying to hide. In fact the thought process that cause you to hide will alter your aura (changed emothional state) and may make you stand out more. Dual natured and Astrally perceiving folks should be able to use stealth to attempt to hide, since they can perceive the medium in which they are hiding.

[Apathy]

I have never seen using the infrared, ultraviolet, or radar, but if I wanted to avoid cameras that might view using these things I believe I could learn how to do it, or at least learn the steps that would increase my odds of success. Just because I've never used astral perception doesn't mean I couldn't learn the strengths and weaknesses of it and act in ways that made me difficult to spot using those techniques.

[sn0mm1s]

So let's go through this.

"Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?" You take this can refer to someone using physical world stealth against an astral observer and not a question of can I do X on the astral.

Yes and no, obviously an astrally projecting being can't use physical stealth because they don't have those stats on the astral. However, for 99% of stealth test we are dealing with physical world stealth.

"Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless." From this you infer that no mundanes can use stealth against astral observers. I see a general statement on how the astral is percieved.

Then give me the example where the attempt is "useless".
Projecting - described in FAQ (As I mentioned in most cases this is probably more effective for the mage than using physical stats)
Dual Natured - same as regular old stealth with the option of substituting in Logic.
Mundane - now, if this works as a regular Agility + Infiltration test then stealth is *never* useless. Not even close. Stealth isn't particularly hard either with any character focused on infiltration.

" Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers." Note the mechanics here only apply to Astral Projecting and Dual natured using Stealth on the astral. No mention of Mundanes at all. Also note the "Hide in astral space" in the first sentence, this is explicitly about a full astral form using a skill in the astral against astral observers. Then it goes on to a sentence about dual natured characters using stealth against astral observers. Nowhere is a Mundane against astral observers mentioned.

So? A mundane's aura exists on the astral plane. How would you describe a mundane trying to hide vs. an astral observer... are they not trying to hide their aura in astral space? They definitely aren't trying to hide their aura in the physical world. There is no difference from the viewpoint of an astral observer between a dual natured being or a mundane trying to hide. You guys are like Bill Clinton trying to argue the definition of "is". What is your definition of "in" and "on" and describe to me a mundane hiding their aura from an astral observer without using "in" or "on" or some sort of synonym.

"Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target." Straightforward, when using astral perception, use astral perception modifiers. However, if you read on astral visibility in Street Magic, several times it is explicitly stated that physical world cover and modifiers can still apply. Does this mean a mundane character could get physical world modifiers and cover, but not the skill at all?

Yup, just like a surprised runner behind cover getting shot at. The runner will get the cover bonus - but won't get to roll reaction or dodge because they are unaware of the person taking a shot at them - just like they are unaware of an astral observer.

"The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like." This is interesting since it only refers to palming items that in themselves have an astral form, so it seems to be a case of an astral form hiding/"palming" another astral form. No mention of concealing mundane items from astral perception.

This is because mundane items are opaque and dead and palming would be just the same (or maybe even easier) - they aren't glowing saying "Look at me."

[Yerameyahu]

It's not about hiding your emotions, it's about hiding behind people and objects. That's the same skill regardless.

[DamienKnight]

Err I am sorry but hiding behind physical unliving cover wont block LOS in astral.

All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.

No.
All things are opaque on astral, even glass.

I am with Rotbart on this. A brick wall may not glow on the astral, and make a living being easy to spot when it is the backdrop, but astral entities cannot see through solid physical objects... regardless of whither light can pass through the object.

Also, ultimate astral sneaky... the conceal power. Anyone with good essence can have conceal by ingesting some magical drugs. Or hire your friendly neighborhood mage to summon a spirit for you to cast conceal. I would charge a player 100$ per force per service for something like that.

With a force 6 conceal, they have 6 less dice to see you with. Combine that with a high threshold created by your Infiltration check, and your unspottable, even by spirits on the astral!

[KarmaInferno]

Hm. So a pixie inside an Otomo drone would be effectively undetectable on the astral as a living creature.




-karma

[Yerameyahu]

Yup, and unable to use its own Astral Sight ability. Of course, isn't pixie-inside-any-drone a house-rule situation to begin with?

Nah, it's not armor, it's a drone, humanoid-shaped vehicle. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[sn0mm1s]

Hm. So a pixie inside an Otomo drone would be effectively undetectable on the astral as a living creature.




-karma

Depends, I think that there is a source somewhere that states full body armor doesn't hide an aura in the astral not sure about the drone.