Does Reach Factor into Astral Combat? Options

[czarcasm]

Nowhere in SR4, SM, DG, or in the FAQ do I find any reference to Reach having any effect in astral combat. And I guess that's on purpose -- didn't reach factor into the price of weapon foci in previous editions? That obviously isn't the case in SR4. How do you guys handle reach in your games. It's hard to imagine astral forms of Great Dragons being on par with metahumans in this respect, or an astral projecting troll armed with a pole-ax weapon focus on the same level as an astrally projecting pixie using an enchanted butter knife.

[Yerameyahu]

Well, I don't think it's that hard. Astral could easily be pure power, not shape.

That said, I don't have much trouble allowing it; my games are very low on magic anyway.

[Dakka Dakka]

Nowhere in SR4, SM, DG, or in the FAQ do I find any reference to Reach having any effect in astral combat.

There is no mention of it explicitly. It is there implicitly:

Astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat.

Reach is part of physical combat, so it also applies to Astral Combat. The differences to normal combat are delineated afterwards.

And I guess that's on purpose -- didn't reach factor into the price of weapon foci in previous editions? That obviously isn't the case in SR4.

It was the case in SR4, SR4A changed that.

[Medicineman]

Astral Movement is extremely fast an 3 Dimensional and IIRC Weapon Reach is no longer a Modifier(thats why its not a Cost Modifier either) because you can reach/ touch / attack your Enemy from every angle)

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Dakka Dakka]

While it's clear that with rapid three-dimensional astral movement all sorts of different maneuvers are plausible, the BBB actually says that astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Could you provide a quotation saying that reach, superior position, knockdown etc. don't apply to astral combat?

[Aarakin]

While I agree with you Dakka Dakka, in that nothing is mentioned by RAW beyond your quote...some aspects of physical combat simply would not translate to astral combat (which explains why a different skill is needed)

How the heck do you 'knock' an astral form to the ground? (since little things like gravity has little effect on astral forms...)

[Dakka Dakka]

How the heck do you 'knock' an astral form to the ground? (since little things like gravity has little effect on astral forms...)

There may just as well be ways to attack astrally so that, if successful, the opponent is in the same disadvantageous situation as being prone. AFAIK astral entities are not points but have similar dimensions as their mundane counterparts or at least have an astral size in case of purely astral entities. As such there is nothing in the rules forbidding you to do an astral throw or leg lock or whatever.

The difference in size and movement speeds probably justifies another skill. Weirdly Dodge, which is purley physical works on the astral as well. Scratch that, it is only in the FAQ, so irrelevant.

[czarcasm]

If you're in the Reach/knockdown/etc-doesn't-apply-in-astral-combat camp, would it apply to a dual-natured person attacking (or being attacked) by a purely astral form?

[Dakka Dakka]

While I'm not in that camp, it still doesn't work. You can't physically attack a astral entity:

Astrally perceiving and dual-natured characters use their Physical attributes and skills to fight opponents with a physical body, and their Astral Combat + Willpower to fight wholly astral entities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

While I'm not in that camp, it still doesn't work. You can't physically attack a astral entity:

This is not always the case though... You can attack an Astral Form with a Physical Attack...

SR4A, Page 296, Critter Power Natural Weapon:
If the critter is dual natured, Natural Weapon may be used with the normal Unarmed Combat skill and physical Damage Value to perform attacks against astral opponents (within reach).

SR4A, Page 199, Weapon Foci:
When used in physical combat, weapon foci grant the character a dice pool modifier to melee attacks equal to their Force. The character still relies on her Physical attributes and skills in combat; the weapon focus merely makes her more effective. This also applies to astrally perceiving characters fighting an opponent on the astral plane.

As you can see, there are at least 2 exceptions to your caveat above... I believe that I have shown that you CAN attack an Astral Form with a Physical Attack.

Keep the Faith

[Dakka Dakka]

Or it could just be contradictions or bad wording.

it just doesn 't make sense. With my hands i can't attack an astral entity but with long fingernails (claws) or a magic pointy stick i can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Or it could just be contradictions or bad wording.

it just doesn 't make sense. With my hands i can't attack an astral entity but with long fingernails (claws) or a magic pointy stick i can (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

When those Claws are a Critter Power; or the Long Pointy Syick is a Weapon Focus, Yes...
Won't work with a Common Sword, or your fists (unless an Adept with Killing Hands) afterall... Since those are generally Magical in Nature

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[jimbo]

It's worth mentioning that Invoked Great Form spirits only get Reach when materialized. Seems weird that an astral troll mage would get reach but a great spirit doesn't...

[Omenowl]

There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.

I took that to mean that there was not any range hence no reach. I also use this to prevent running back and forth where players had no chance of hitting or vice versa.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.

I took that to mean that there was not any range hence no reach. I also use this to prevent running back and forth where players had no chance of hitting or vice versa.

Except that Reach is not the Same Thing as Range... they are two, completely different Concepts...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

I still think this is really a GM call. It likely has little impact on your game either way. No astral reach is simpler, which is a big point in its favor. Yes astral reach is, perhaps, more consistent, so there's that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Omenowl]

Except that Reach is not the Same Thing as Range... they are two, completely different Concepts...

Keep the Faith

You are correct, but from a GM standpoint I didn't want to worry about spirits, animals, people, etc trying to figure out where everyone was, their relative size or to cut down on spells, elemental attacks so completely dominating that I figured distance was irrelevant. Either you fight or you run. It also meant that dual natured creatures had a chance to strike out at their astral attacker. I didn't feel like having magicians suddenly destroying dual natured beings that had no spells.

Vastly simplified and I may modify it to mean 3 types of distances (close, visual, not perceived) if it become an issue.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You are correct, but from a GM standpoint I didn't want to worry about spirits, animals, people, etc trying to figure out where everyone was, their relative size or to cut down on spells, elemental attacks so completely dominating that I figured distance was irrelevant. Either you fight or you run. It also meant that dual natured creatures had a chance to strike out at their astral attacker. I didn't feel like having magicians suddenly destroying dual natured beings that had no spells.

Vastly simplified and I may modify it to mean 3 types of distances (close, visual, not perceived) if it become an issue.

Understandable...

Keep the Faith

[Shinobi Killfist]

In previous editions your astral form did not have to look like your real form and could be larger or smaller. I am not sure if that is still around in 4e but if you can be a troll sized mage because that is how you visualize yourself or whatever I'd say reach becomes irrelevant as a stat because you are as big as you want to be.

I am in the camp that removes it.

1. Its easier.
2. It does not make much sense when people are moving 6,000 KPH
3. Astral form does not=size wise physical form look at spirits and there reach.


It is not really specified beyond the general rule that astral combat follows melee combat rules. But general rules and guidelines are frequently unclear or do not cover every possibility.

[TheOOB]

I rule that reach does apply in the astral. When you bring a katana weapon foci into the astral, you are really bringing the idea of a katana into the astral, and a katana, as a sword, has superior reach to a fist. Astral combat isn't about physical speeds and positions, but metaphysical ideals.

[Dakka Dakka]

I rule that reach does apply in the astral. When you bring a katana weapon foci into the astral, you are really bringing the idea of a katana into the astral, and a katana, as a sword, has superior reach to a fist. Astral combat isn't about physical speeds and positions, but metaphysical ideals.

Exactly, you would also get the weapon's AP, since this is also part of the weapons stats and concept. AP is a lot less interesting on the astral plane, because few entities have actual astral armor.

[Omenowl]

I rule that reach does apply in the astral. When you bring a katana weapon foci into the astral, you are really bringing the idea of a katana into the astral, and a katana, as a sword, has superior reach to a fist. Astral combat isn't about physical speeds and positions, but metaphysical ideals.

So how does this work with guardian spirits who have weapons? How does it work with very powerful spirits as their size tends to represent their force?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So how does this work with guardian spirits who have weapons? How does it work with very powerful spirits as their size tends to represent their force?

Well, Guardian Spirits do not have weapons on the Astral Plane last I checked...

Keep the Faith

[Omenowl]

Well, Guardian Spirits do not have weapons on the Astral Plane last I checked...

Keep the Faith

The description states them having weapons. This is part of their aspect, but if you are going to give reach for weapons you should give the same for a spirit.

[Yerameyahu]

Everything in astral is just window dressing, like appearing in VR as a dragon or something. … except foci, and powers that specifically state otherwise. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)