Nowhere in SR4, SM, DG, or in the FAQ do I find any reference to Reach having any effect in astral combat. And I guess that's on purpose -- didn't reach factor into the price of weapon foci in previous editions? That obviously isn't the case in SR4. How do you guys handle reach in your games. It's hard to imagine astral forms of Great Dragons being on par with metahumans in this respect, or an astral projecting troll armed with a pole-ax weapon focus on the same level as an astrally projecting pixie using an enchanted butter knife.

Well, I don't think it's that hard. Astral could easily be pure power, not shape.

That said, I don't have much trouble allowing it; my games are very low on magic anyway.

There is no mention of it explicitly. It is there implicitly:Reach is part of physical combat, so it also applies to Astral Combat. The differences to normal combat are delineated afterwards.

It was the case in SR4, SR4A changed that.

Astral Movement is extremely fast an 3 Dimensional and IIRC Weapon Reach is no longer a Modifier(thats why its not a Cost Modifier either) because you can reach/ touch / attack your Enemy from every angle)

HokaHey
Medicineman

While it's clear that with rapid three-dimensional astral movement all sorts of different maneuvers are plausible, the BBB actually says that astral combat is resolved in the same way as physical combat. Could you provide a quotation saying that reach, superior position, knockdown etc. don't apply to astral combat?

While I agree with you Dakka Dakka, in that nothing is mentioned by RAW beyond your quote...some aspects of physical combat simply would not translate to astral combat (which explains why a different skill is needed)

How the heck do you 'knock' an astral form to the ground? (since little things like gravity has little effect on astral forms...)

There may just as well be ways to attack astrally so that, if successful, the opponent is in the same disadvantageous situation as being prone. AFAIK astral entities are not points but have similar dimensions as their mundane counterparts or at least have an astral size in case of purely astral entities. As such there is nothing in the rules forbidding you to do an astral throw or leg lock or whatever.

The difference in size and movement speeds probably justifies another skill. Weirdly Dodge, which is purley physical works on the astral as well. Scratch that, it is only in the FAQ, so irrelevant.

If you're in the Reach/knockdown/etc-doesn't-apply-in-astral-combat camp, would it apply to a dual-natured person attacking (or being attacked) by a purely astral form?

While I'm not in that camp, it still doesn't work. You can't physically attack a astral entity:

This is not always the case though... You can attack an Astral Form with a Physical Attack...





As you can see, there are at least 2 exceptions to your caveat above... I believe that I have shown that you CAN attack an Astral Form with a Physical Attack.

Keep the Faith

Or it could just be contradictions or bad wording.

it just doesn 't make sense. With my hands i can't attack an astral entity but with long fingernails (claws) or a magic pointy stick i can

When those Claws are a Critter Power; or the Long Pointy Syick is a Weapon Focus, Yes...
Won't work with a Common Sword, or your fists (unless an Adept with Killing Hands) afterall... Since those are generally Magical in Nature

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

It's worth mentioning that Invoked Great Form spirits only get Reach when materialized. Seems weird that an astral troll mage would get reach but a great spirit doesn't...

There are no known ranged weapons that function in astral space, so
unarmed attacks, active weapon foci (p. 199), and mana spells are the
only options for astral combat.

I took that to mean that there was not any range hence no reach. I also use this to prevent running back and forth where players had no chance of hitting or vice versa.

Except that Reach is not the Same Thing as Range... they are two, completely different Concepts...

Keep the Faith

I still think this is really a GM call. It likely has little impact on your game either way. No astral reach is simpler, which is a big point in its favor. Yes astral reach is, perhaps, more consistent, so there's that.

You are correct, but from a GM standpoint I didn't want to worry about spirits, animals, people, etc trying to figure out where everyone was, their relative size or to cut down on spells, elemental attacks so completely dominating that I figured distance was irrelevant. Either you fight or you run. It also meant that dual natured creatures had a chance to strike out at their astral attacker. I didn't feel like having magicians suddenly destroying dual natured beings that had no spells.

Vastly simplified and I may modify it to mean 3 types of distances (close, visual, not perceived) if it become an issue.

Understandable...

Keep the Faith

In previous editions your astral form did not have to look like your real form and could be larger or smaller. I am not sure if that is still around in 4e but if you can be a troll sized mage because that is how you visualize yourself or whatever I'd say reach becomes irrelevant as a stat because you are as big as you want to be.

I am in the camp that removes it.

1. Its easier.
2. It does not make much sense when people are moving 6,000 KPH
3. Astral form does not=size wise physical form look at spirits and there reach.


It is not really specified beyond the general rule that astral combat follows melee combat rules. But general rules and guidelines are frequently unclear or do not cover every possibility.

I rule that reach does apply in the astral. When you bring a katana weapon foci into the astral, you are really bringing the idea of a katana into the astral, and a katana, as a sword, has superior reach to a fist. Astral combat isn't about physical speeds and positions, but metaphysical ideals.

Exactly, you would also get the weapon's AP, since this is also part of the weapons stats and concept. AP is a lot less interesting on the astral plane, because few entities have actual astral armor.

So how does this work with guardian spirits who have weapons? How does it work with very powerful spirits as their size tends to represent their force?

Well, Guardian Spirits do not have weapons on the Astral Plane last I checked...

Keep the Faith

The description states them having weapons. This is part of their aspect, but if you are going to give reach for weapons you should give the same for a spirit.

Everything in astral is just window dressing, like appearing in VR as a dragon or something. … except foci, and powers that specifically state otherwise.

Looks to me like the description is describing a Materialized Spirit, not one in the Astral Realm... and the Spirit CAN have a weapon, assuming that you gave it one or it picked one up...

And I agree with you... If a Spirit is wielding a Weapon with reach, then the Spirit gets the benefit of the Reach...

Keep the Faith

Great the sidebar about "Spirit Appearance" (Street Magic p. 96 f.) contradicts the prior rules about them: So to me it makes no difference whether the materialized spirit looks like a minigun-wielding Dutch or the predator. Either way it won't have ranged weapons unless it picks one up. Hmm, I just found out that Gaurdian Spirits cannot get a ranged attack power.

If all physical melee combat rules apply to the astral combat :

What happen when a dual creature is knockdown in astral combat ? All of sudden you see it do a somersault in physical world ? what if this knock it down the stairs or a building ?

Aren't dual creature supposed to exist at the same spot in both space (Astral and Physical) ?

Yes, that is exactly what should happen by my understanding of the rules. After all, when slashes and gashes can appear out of "nothing" then why should the same force cleaving flesh be unable to move the body ?
Or if you prefer, you could see it as the astral part of the critter being moved and the physical part - being connected to it - has no choice but following because unlike in actual astral projection, it needs to stay connected to its astral part.

I can imagine somy funny maneuvers from this, like using a throw on the astral plane to move the pysical body somewhere it takes damage (like into a fire or dangerous machinery) Or you could project and throw a (dual-natured) critter from a roof that would be too heavy on the physical plane to be moved like this.

Oh, if only characters were dual-natured...

Are you thinking about a specific kind of critter? Most critters that are too heavy to throw usually are also too strong to knock down.

.oO(Hmm but their astral strength....)