CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[BlueMax]

As far as I understand it, boycotting BP stations doesn't really hurt BP the company in the vast number of cases. Just the poor guy owning and operating the station.

Correct. I didn't want to bring up that Gas and Diesel are Fungible.

BlueMax

[JM Hardy]

Well, it's important to point out that:

a) Jason had just banned me from the freelancer forums because I accused him of lying (I still maintain he was being dishonest, Jason disagrees),

I was hoping we had left this particular accusation behind, but here it is again. I've tried to take care of it in PMs the last time it came up, but apparently that didn't work. So let me be absolutely clear on what happened. I was discussing the upcoming release schedule. I said books would be coming out in the following order: Dawn of the Artifacts 2, Corporate Guide, Almanac, War!, Attitude, [unannounced future product], first Horizon adventure, Spy Games. In reality, here's what happened. Dawn of the Artifacts 2 was released. Corporate Guide has been electronically released and is at the printers. Almanac will follow next. Then War!. Then Attitude. Now, unannounced future product will be delayed, but I got the first five right, and the remainders are basically in the right order. What I said was going to happen, happened. Yet somehow me saying it was going to happen that way was dishonest. I'm not sure how that can be.

Bobby is free to have disagreements with me on matters of opinion, and he can think I don't know enough about Shadowrun, and he can not like my writing, and that's all fine. But I take accusations of dishonesty seriously, and I would appreciate it if this one, which has been repeated multiple times, did not recur.

Jason H.

[Redjack]

To change the topic just a bit:

6. No alternate accounts. Users of DSF may post under one account only. If multiple accounts are discovered to belong to one user, the additional accounts will be terminated. Do not share your password with other users. You are responsible for the actions of anyone else using your account.

Using a second account to get around a board suspension so that you can continue personal attacks makes it personal to us. It also stacks up those attacks on your primary account, in addition to the TOS violation for multiple accounts. If you get suspended, take a walk, take a breath and stay away until your suspension is over.. Otherwise days becomes weeks.

[imperialus]

To change the topic just a bit:



Using a second account to get around a board suspension so that you can continue personal attacks makes it personal to us. It also stacks up those attacks on your primary account, in addition to the TOS violation for multiple accounts. If you get suspended, take a walk, take a breath and stay away until your suspension is over.. Otherwise days becomes weeks.

I must admit I'm impressed and surprised it took this long for the sock puppets to appear.

[crizh]

But I take accusations of dishonesty seriously, and I would appreciate it if this one, which has been repeated multiple times, did not recur.

Jason H.

Alright, enough already.

You are going to be hearing that accusation for the rest of your life. You banned Bobby from the freelancer forums for it and precipitated a massive shit-storm.

Whether or not he was right to accuse you of dissembling nobody can deny that he had good reason to believe that the future release schedule might be in jeopardy. At that point it looked to most of the world that CGL might be days from following FASA and Fanpro into oblivion. He also had good reason to suggest that promises of payment for freelance work might not be honoured. Is every single SR and BT freelancer currently up to date? As CGL faces possible bankruptcy on Friday it is entirely within the bounds of possibility that some of those freelancers may never be paid.

Whether you believed yourself to be telling the truth is not relevant. Bobby had good reason to doubt the veracity of your statements and your reaction to that has ensured that you'll be hearing about it indefinitely.

[Redjack]

I know everyone has an axe to grind, an opinion and a side. We're just losing patience quickly with it all. Personally, the flame bait that has been drawn to the board over the last few months from both sides is the most frustrating to me. Its bad enough when the people with some history here go to war but the influx of new members seeking nothing more than to sling poo is getting real old.

[Darkeus]

Oh the dead horse has been beat to a fine paste by now. Old is an understatement.

[Cain]

As far as I understand it, boycotting BP stations doesn't really hurt BP the company in the vast number of cases. Just the poor guy owning and operating the station.

And continuing to buy from them just helps their case further. I never claimed it was a win-win situation; only that if you buy from someone, you're supporting their policies.

What percentage of Shadowrun players (and possible buyers of new books) know about this, I wonder? I mean, sure, everyone here at dumpshock.com does, but we're just a small part of the community.

There are thousands of people on Dumpshock alone, but very few of those are active posters. Combine that with the huge number of potential Shadowrun players on RPG.net, we can assume that thousands of people know. Of those, maybe 5000 care about it at all, and maybe 10% care enough to stop buying. So, across the nation, maybe 500 people, tops. That's still a noticeable dent in sales.

[Dread Moores]

Every dollar spent is a vote. Buy gas at BP, you're supporting poor environmental policies, even if you like their gas. Buy something from CGL, you're supporting the Loren L Coleman retirement fund, even if you like their products.

I *love* Shadowrun. And I won't buy their products because I can't stomach what CGL has done to a lot of people I respect.

Really nice avoidance of what I actually said, Cain. My point wasn't that the dollar spent is a vote. There's no debating that. My point was your initial post seemed to indicate that the voter's actual motivations for buying said product was a desire to support the poor management. I understanding voting with your money. I don't understanding casting aspersions on some unknown buyer's motivations for buying the product (which I would largely guess boil down to "I liked the book"). Especially when there are, and will be, fans out there who have no idea of everything going on here. They'll keep buying product. Their motivations for doing so have nothing to do with CGL, or heck, even knowledge of what the heck has gone on.

[Lithium]

So speculators, does anyone have any links to any further documents filed in relation to the bankruptcy hearing on Friday?

Will DSF's own travelling reporter be in attendance this time?

[emouse]

* puts on conspiracy cap* So I'm seeing a flood of new Shadowrun products coming, and I have to wonder how much this has to do with license renewal. Were these products already in the pipe-line and are being pushed out early? Or is this just business as usual?

Well, if the drain on resources was so bad that it was resulting in production delays, part of the reason for a sudden surge of products could be a result of CGL getting its books in order, or at least has managed to get some additional source of funding to help get things back on track.

[Cain]

Really nice avoidance of what I actually said, Cain. My point wasn't that the dollar spent is a vote. There's no debating that. My point was your initial post seemed to indicate that the voter's actual motivations for buying said product was a desire to support the poor management. I understanding voting with your money. I don't understanding casting aspersions on some unknown buyer's motivations for buying the product (which I would largely guess boil down to "I liked the book"). Especially when there are, and will be, fans out there who have no idea of everything going on here. They'll keep buying product. Their motivations for doing so have nothing to do with CGL, or heck, even knowledge of what the heck has gone on.

First off, I confess to hyperbole. No, wanting Loren L. Coleman to have a nice house is not the only reason to buy a CGL product. But it is an unintended consequence.

As far as fans not knowing, that's the point of the internet and word-of-mouth. Spread the word, and let people make up their own minds. Most every Shadowrun fan I've met has been via the internet; a game with a Gibsonian Matrix will likely have a more tech-savvy game base.

[emouse]

Every dollar spent is a vote. Buy gas at BP, you're supporting poor environmental policies, even if you like their gas.

Buy gas pretty much anywhere and you're supporting poor environmental policies. BP was not necessarily uniquely positioned to have this happen, just the first to have it happen.

To bring it back to CGL's situation, getting real information about the situation and how the company has or hasn't changed its ways, as well as information about your options, and then make a decision for yourself is really the best thing to do.

[Cain]

Buy gas pretty much anywhere and you're supporting poor environmental policies. BP was not necessarily uniquely positioned to have this happen, just the first to have it happen.

To bring it back to CGL's situation, getting real information about the situation and how the company has or hasn't changed its ways, as well as information about your options, and then make a decision for yourself is really the best thing to do.

I chose BP because it's all over the news right now. Otherwise I would have mentioned the Exxon Valdez.

But the fact is, your money is your voice. No matter how much we jones for it, we don't really require the latest Shadowrun product. If you don't like what CGL is doing, then don't buy their stuff. The best thing to do, if you want to speak up, is to speak from your wallet.

[Saint Sithney]

I chose BP because it's all over the news right now. Otherwise I would have mentioned the Exxon Valdez.

But the fact is, your money is your voice. No matter how much we jones for it, we don't really require the latest Shadowrun product. If you don't like what CGL is doing, then don't buy their stuff. The best thing to do, if you want to speak up, is to speak from your wallet.

Yeah, oil isn't really the best example. Every consumer-side gas station just gets their oil from whoever is supplying it cheapest. They are literally interchangeable by the time you get access to it.

[Cardul]

Cain,
under what circumstances would you say it would be acceptable to buy from CGL again?

Me, personally? I am going to buy from them, because I like Shadowrun and Battletech, and
am looking forward to Leviathans. I like that, while they might not be the most forthcoming on
details, Randall, Herb, Ben, and Jason are more involved with the community then any other
game company I have seen. I could care less about Coleman because I have never had any
interaction with him. Sure, I would love to know who their new Operations Manager is, as I had
gone to Vairdic(aka David Stansel-Garner) many a times in the past when my FLGS was having issues
getting distributors to send Shadowrun or Battletech product. I am giving Catalyst the chance to
turn around. I know what I expect to be going on, since it is what I would do, but I have no idea
if that is going on. I do not know if their new Operations Manager is given an Operational Budget to
pay freelancers, printers, artists, and salaries. I expect that is what is happening, though, because that
is what I would do. I do not see Ancient History, Demonseed Elite, Patrick Goodman, or even Jason Hardy
as being "essential to shadowrun." All I care about is the usability of the product. NOTE: I have seen wonderful,
high quality books for other systems that were utterly useless, and poor quality books that were so usable, I still
pull them out to this day. So, quality of the product is not necessarily important to me.

[Larsine]

Oh, that explains why I don't remember saying what was attributed to me ... because I didn't write it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sorry about that, my mistake. Didn't check the original source...

Lars

[RunnerPaul]

I said books would be coming out in the following order: Dawn of the Artifacts 2, Corporate Guide, Almanac, War!, Attitude, [unannounced future product], first Horizon adventure, Spy Games.

Yes, books. To the freelancers, that's part of the schedule that really matters, as their payments come due 30 days after the physical book is published.

In reality, here's what happened. Dawn of the Artifacts 2 was released.

Released, and sold to the public before the matter of Jen's hold on her copyrighted material was resolved. Kept off shelves for like what, over a month, until you actually had the rights for the material you wanted to sell?

Corporate Guide has been electronically released and is at the printers.

While PDFs might be part of an overall "Release Schedule", from the perspective of one freelancer telling another that they might not get paid in as timely of a manner that the schedule suggests, its the publication date on the book that counts. Furthermore, this PDF was released to the public with material that was not free and clear from a copyright standpoint. True, it was corrected with an updated PDF when the matter was pointed out, but that means that the earliest that the printer could have started making the books is when the updated PDF was made available.

Almanac will follow next. Then War!. Then Attitude. Now, unannounced future product will be delayed, but I got the first five right,

It's a bit premature to say you've gotten the first five right, seeing as only the first two of those five have actually been released in any format. Unless you're willing to give us firm street dates on Almanac, War!, and Attitude at this time?

What I said was going to happen, happened.

So, out of 8 products, which would each have a PDF release and a book publication date, 3 of those 16 (two PDFs and one book) have actually been met. Of those three, two were out the door before they were ready from a copyright standpoint. From where I'm sitting, I'd say it's too soon to tell whether the release schedule was overly optimistic or not.

[JM Hardy]

Yes, books. To the freelancers, that's part of the schedule that really matters, as their payments come due 30 days after the physical book is published.


Released, and sold to the public before the matter of Jen's hold on her copyrighted material was resolved. Kept off shelves for like what, over a month, until you actually had the rights for the material you wanted to sell?


While PDFs might be part of an overall "Release Schedule", from the perspective of one freelancer telling another that they might not get paid in as timely of a manner that the schedule suggests, its the publication date on the book that counts. Furthermore, this PDF was released to the public with material that was not free and clear from a copyright standpoint. True, it was corrected with an updated PDF when the matter was pointed out, but that means that the earliest that the printer could have started making the books is when the updated PDF was made available.


It's a bit premature to say you've gotten the first five right, seeing as only the first two of those five have actually been released in any format. Unless you're willing to give us firm street dates on Almanac, War!, and Attitude at this time?


So, out of 8 products, which would each have a PDF release and a book publication date, 3 of those 16 (two PDFs and one book) have actually been met. Of those three, two were out the door before they were ready from a copyright standpoint. From where I'm sitting, I'd say it's too soon to tell whether the release schedule was overly optimistic or not.

That's why I didn't put a date on the books when I mentioned the order. I knew there were problems--I knew we would have to get people paid off to get some books out the door, and I knew we would need money for printing. But there were efforts going on to address those problems. Also, other than the e-fiction line, the plan was to get books to the printer around the same time they were released electronically. We intend to keep having hard copy books coming out, and as I mentioned two books (one of which has not yet been released electronically) are at the printers currently.

I don't have firm street dates, but Corp Guide is out, Almanac is being printed, and War and Attitude will follow. I now that freelancers had been burned before, and I can understand them being wary of information. But there's considerable difference between wondering if a schedule is overly optimistic, and out-and-out, and repeatedly, accusing me of lying for saying that releases are going to come out in the order that, to this point, has been followed.

Jason H.

[RunnerPaul]

but Corp Guide is out,

In PDF only so far.

Almanac is being printed,

It is? Did it just go to the printers then? (In your post earlier this morning, Corp Guide is the only one you listed as "at the printers".)

But there's considerable difference between wondering if a schedule is overly optimistic, and out-and-out, and repeatedly, accusing me of lying for saying that releases are going to come out in the order that, to this point, has been followed.

And I've always gotten the impression from AH's posts that his warnings were about the former, and not the latter.

[LurkerOutThere]

That's funny because the read I keep getting from AH's posts is he thought his position with the company was so important that he could call his boss an *expletive* liar behind his back and think that nothing would come of it if it got back to him. Frankly I'm also pretty sure that statement didn't happen in a total vacuum. Now lets be honest with ourselves, how well would that go over at most of our day jobs?

At this point the only thing AH's got over any other disgruntled employee is a venue and a following.

[Ancient History]

Ex-freelancer, Lurker. Not employee.

At the time Jason posted his list, several freelancers had withdrawn their drafts pending being paid. No payments had as yet gone out. Attitude did not even have a full complement of first drafts in (hell, I wasn't sure the entire book was assigned at that point), War! and the Horizon adventures both needed a lot of work still. Jason completely neglected ebooks, including the couple that were in development at the time - and that's also not counting a couple other products he hasn't mentioned. His schedule was bullshit. That Corp Guide was "released" before 6WA is a matter of luck, not planning and foresight.

So yes, I thought Jason was being dishonest with his proposed schedule. It was incomplete and neglected what I considered to be several vital factors (i.e. people had not yet been paid so their material could not be released, and some books were more complete but set to be released after books that hadn't been written yet).

[JM Hardy]

Ex-freelancer, Lurker. Not employee.

At the time Jason posted his list, several freelancers had withdrawn their drafts pending being paid. No payments had as yet gone out. Attitude did not even have a full complement of first drafts in (hell, I wasn't sure the entire book was assigned at that point), War! and the Horizon adventures both needed a lot of work still. Jason completely neglected ebooks, including the couple that were in development at the time - and that's also not counting a couple other products he hasn't mentioned. His schedule was bullshit. That Corp Guide was "released" before 6WA is a matter of luck, not planning and foresight.

So yes, I thought Jason was being dishonest with his proposed schedule. It was incomplete and neglected what I considered to be several vital factors (i.e. people had not yet been paid so their material could not be released electronically, and some books were more complete but set to be released after books that hadn't been written yet).

I was aware of the various circumstances when I mentioned the schedules. The reason I made the schedule the way I did was that I was aware of plans to deal with various circumstances. It wasn't "luck" that made Corp Guide come out--we had a plan for it to come out when I mentioned the schedule, and the plan worked out. So the book has been released electronically and is at the printers. You can call the pipeline what you'd like, but I'd just like to call it what it has been to this point: accurate.

Here's the main difference--AH thought I was ignoring circumstances, like people not being paid. I wasn't. I was aware of them. But I was also aware, as AH was not, of plans to deal with them--plans that have since come to fruition.

Re: Runner Paul's earlier question: Yes, the Almanac is in the hands of a printer.

Jason H.

[urgru]

@Jason: Does 6WA need color plates? One of the tweets in the CGL stream made it sound as if it was going overseas to print. If so, is the longer time to retail why we can't buy it in PDF yet?

[Ancient History]

Yeah, I don't believe you. Your schedule was released, what, 21 March? You didn't announce CGL cutting checks for freelancers until 4 April - and that's after Midnight was "accidentally" shipped.