CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Cheops]

Well I personally would not want to support LLC because my buddy's game company was brought down by one of the partners stealing money from the business. Having seen the hardship, stress, and anger that it caused him I would not want anyone else to have to have that happen to them. Seeing this happen now, to the company that publishes one of my favorite settings (and my friend's too), makes me think that LLC is the lowest of the low pond scum (remember he's allegedly been taking his family's money too!) and that I'd rather not give him any more opportunity. I also don't know the guy at all so I see no reason to forgive him even if he did seek repentence (which we haven't seen any indication of yet).

YMMV.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I think you're too cynical. I think most small business do things in an honest, fair, and forthright manner. I don't think most businesses skirt the laws or treat the people they work with badly. I think that's the exception - not the rule. That's just my personal experience, having worked with and for many small businesses over the past 20 years.

What is funny is I have never worked for an honest small business. The most honest business I worked for and even than I'm not saying paragons of virtue was a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical wholesaler focused on cancer drugs.

[urgru]

The bankruptcy proceeding is showing as TERMINATED on PACER. I expect we'll hear more about this from Catalyst shortly.

Update: I spoke too soon. Someone fat fingered the docket and closed the case by accident. It's been re-opened, but some of the PACER status pages are still showing termination as the last update.

REOPENED CASE. This case was closed due to an administrative error. It is ORDERED that this case is reopened. Mark L. Hatcher, Clerk of the Bankrupcty Court. (Related document(s) 21 Case Closed Without Discharge). (USBC Staff - Brazil, Victoria) (Entered: 06/21/2010 at 13:55:49)

[Doc Chase]

What is funny is I have never worked for an honest small business. The most honest business I worked for and even than I'm not saying paragons of virtue was a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical wholesaler focused on cancer drugs.

Most small businesses do - when you are faced with your clientele daily, you know that crossing them is going to spread quickly and shut you down. When the stakes get higher, when you get shareholders and have to meet earnings goals; those are the times when ethics start to blur in order to get that dollar in your wallet.

[Deadmannumberone]

Most small businesses do - when you are faced with your clientele daily, you know that crossing them is going to spread quickly and shut you down. When the stakes get higher, when you get shareholders and have to meet earnings goals; those are the times when ethics start to blur in order to get that dollar in your wallet.

You assume that the only way a small business can be unethical is by screwing their clientele.

[Cabral]

Well I personally would not want to support LLC because my buddy's game company was brought down by one of the partners stealing money from the business. Having seen the hardship, stress, and anger that it caused him I would not want anyone else to have to have that happen to them. Seeing this happen now, to the company that publishes one of my favorite settings (and my friend's too), makes me think that LLC is the lowest of the low pond scum (remember he's allegedly been taking his family's money too!) and that I'd rather not give him any more opportunity. I also don't know the guy at all so I see no reason to forgive him even if he did seek repentence (which we haven't seen any indication of yet).

YMMV.

I sympathize with your stance. However, I cannot agree with it. Your proposed method of robbing LLC of opportunity to "questionably acquire" more also robs him of the opportunity to repay the company; to repay debts; to pay freelancers. The company needs money to move forward. While some may argue for the sale of the Coleman's estate, I doubt that would be enough with the consumer boycotting new products.
a
In my opinion, voting with your wallet hurts the people in the same situation as your friend, particularly at this stage where parties are trying to correct the situation.

I want the freelancers to get paid. If I was a little better at finishinrg projects, I'd try to be one (art; not really writing) ... I just cannot see any way withholding money for good products will accomplish that.

---
Cabral (Dghost from ShadowRN and Pixel from IRC)

[Adam]

Holy frick oldtimers out of the woodwork!

[Bull]

Holy frick oldtimers out of the woodwork!

Indeed. Heya Pixel! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[hermit]

I'm mainly curious about how other people think about this - do you react to the unproven situation and risk harming the innocent? Or do you ignore it and risk rewarding the guilty?

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? And since when is everyone working for/ownig a share in CGL guilty by association because LLC allegedly did things?

Well I personally would not want to support LLC because my buddy's game company was brought down by one of the partners stealing money from the business. Having seen the hardship, stress, and anger that it caused him I would not want anyone else to have to have that happen to them.

Would you rather have his company tank because customers would like to see his partner go down? Would that have made your buddy any happier, if the company could have been salvaged otherwise?

[Congzilla]

I personally feel no guilt in buying CGL products as I showed with my wallet by buying 9 books last week. If they don't make any money the freelancers will never get paid. If LLC is guilty of tax evasion or embezzlement, that is for the courts to decide. But for me it comes down to making sure I have the books in my possession to be able to teach my child the games I loved growing up as he grows up. I am not going to abandon the IP's I have loved for two decades because a couple guys at the company who happen to hold the publishing rights to the IP's are d-bags.

[Martin_DeVries_I...]

I personally feel no guilt in buying CGL products as I showed with my wallet by buying 9 books last week. If they don't make any money the freelancers will never get paid. If LLC is guilty of tax evasion or embezzlement, that is for the courts to decide. But for me it comes down to making sure I have the books in my possession to be able to teach my child the games I loved growing up as he grows up. I am not going to abandon the IP's I have loved for two decades because a couple guys at the company who happen to hold the publishing rights to the IP's are d-bags.

Agreed. I've played this game for nearly 20 years and want to play for another 20. I want this IP to survive. I don't want to reward anybody's bad behavior, and I want to be sure that people are fairly compensated for their work; but boycotting the company is not going to achieve either of those things. So I am still buying Shadowrun products. Hell, I'm even working on a freelance proposal right now--too many good writers are no longer associated with the company and some of us need to step up if there's going to be any product at all.

[Ancient History]

I sympathize with your stance. However, I cannot agree with it. Your proposed method of robbing LLC of opportunity to "questionably acquire" more also robs him of the opportunity to repay the company; to repay debts; to pay freelancers. The company needs money to move forward. While some may argue for the sale of the Coleman's estate, I doubt that would be enough with the consumer boycotting new products.

With respect, I don't see Loren ever paying back the money he took from the company. Not while he's drawing a paycheck, not in his lifetime. Hell, can you imagine how long it would take you to pay back $200k? If you paid back $1,000 a month you'd take about four years to pay that back (assuming no interest). Loren is supposed to have taken over three times that. CGL really can't wait for 12+ years to get that cash back. And LLC has declared bankruptcy before. I don't know how that sort of debt would work, but I wouldn't put it past him to try and do it again if he thought he could.

[hermit]

With respect, I don't see Loren ever paying back the money he took from the company. Not while he's drawing a paycheck, not in his lifetime. Hell, can you imagine how long it would take you to pay back $200k? If you paid back $1,000 a month you'd take about four years to pay that back (assuming no interest). Loren is supposed to have taken over three times that. CGL really can't wait for 12+ years to get that cash back. And LLC has declared bankruptcy before. I don't know how that sort of debt would work, but I wouldn't put it past him to try and do it again if he thought he could.

Maybe having him pay back via transfer of ownership of his house or something (which he then could rent from the company) would work? Other than such a scheme, no, it probably wouldn't.

He declared bankrupcy before? personal or with a company?

[Congzilla]

Maybe having him pay back via transfer of ownership of his house or something (which he then could rent from the company) would work? Other than such a scheme, no, it probably wouldn't.

He declared bankrupcy before? personal or with a company?

Or even easier, he could simply sell his stake in the company for the balance due to an investor. Even better if that investor is Topps, an IP holder who owns their own development studio almost always put out better product ie: Wizards owned by Hasbro or White Wolf owned by CCP (Crowd Control Productions makers of the oh so wonderful and overly addictive EvE Online).

[emouse]

With respect, I don't see Loren ever paying back the money he took from the company. Not while he's drawing a paycheck, not in his lifetime. Hell, can you imagine how long it would take you to pay back $200k? If you paid back $1,000 a month you'd take about four years to pay that back (assuming no interest). Loren is supposed to have taken over three times that. CGL really can't wait for 12+ years to get that cash back. And LLC has declared bankruptcy before. I don't know how that sort of debt would work, but I wouldn't put it past him to try and do it again if he thought he could.

Where'd you pull the $1000 a month from? Yeah, he might owe 3x the amount in your original example, but I'd suspect his income would be garnished or reduced by more than just $1000 a month.

Since CGL seems to be in the position at the moment of having the funds and support to move forward, they can take a longer view on the payback schedule. Though the sooner it's paid back, the better.

[emouse]

Or even easier, he could simply sell his stake in the company for the balance due to an investor. Even better if that investor is Topps, an IP holder who owns their own development studio almost always put out better product ie: Wizards owned by Hasbro or White Wolf owned by CCP (Crowd Control Productions makers of the oh so wonderful and overly addictive EvE Online).

That is a very possible scenario, but based on past history, I would really prefer that the buyer not be Topps. The last time Wizards owned their own development studio (Wizkids), they stopped innovating a few years before closing up. Even Wizards looks to be going the way of Wizkids. They haven't put out a new game in years, and they've been gradually dropping product lines one by one. I suspect Wizards as we know it now won't last more than another year or two.

On the other hand, Topps is also not in the turmoil they were after buying WizKids, and the person tasked with overseeing IMR has experience in the RPG environment. However, the person Topps picked to oversee WizKids had Magic TG on his resume, so it can be hard to judge.

[Congzilla]

That is a very possible scenario, but based on past history, I would really prefer that the buyer not be Topps.

If it was CCP, we would at least get the worlds two greatest MMO's out of it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Cthulhudreams]

Where'd you pull the $1000 a month from? Yeah, he might owe 3x the amount in your original example, but I'd suspect his income would be garnished or reduced by more than just $1000 a month.

Since CGL seems to be in the position at the moment of having the funds and support to move forward, they can take a longer view on the payback schedule. Though the sooner it's paid back, the better.

I think you are under a sad misaprehension about how much RPG industry people get paid, and how much of the subsequent discretionary budget he is likely to be able to hand over.

[Cain]

I personally feel no guilt in buying CGL products as I showed with my wallet by buying 9 books last week. If they don't make any money the freelancers will never get paid. If LLC is guilty of tax evasion or embezzlement, that is for the courts to decide. But for me it comes down to making sure I have the books in my possession to be able to teach my child the games I loved growing up as he grows up. I am not going to abandon the IP's I have loved for two decades because a couple guys at the company who happen to hold the publishing rights to the IP's are d-bags.

Then how do you plan on getting rid of the d-bags?

You make a statement every time you spend money. If you want to make a statement in favor of things like yacht races and luxury houses, then spend your money there.

In some thirty years of roleplaying, I've never gotten so attached to a game that I'd teach my child to support unethical business practices. There will always be RPGs to be bought, and I seriously doubt that waiting a few months or even years to buy a few books will bring down Shadowrun. There's a difference between sending a message and trying to bring down a company and IP.

[Martin Silenus]

With respect, I don't see Loren ever paying back the money he took from the company. Not while he's drawing a paycheck, not in his lifetime. Hell, can you imagine how long it would take you to pay back $200k? If you paid back $1,000 a month you'd take about four years to pay that back (assuming no interest). Loren is supposed to have taken over three times that. CGL really can't wait for 12+ years to get that cash back. And LLC has declared bankruptcy before. I don't know how that sort of debt would work, but I wouldn't put it past him to try and do it again if he thought he could.

Forgive me if this ground has been trod before in one of the previous threads... but doesn't alleged criminal behavior make this a situation that doesn't lend itself to bankruptcy? I think it would behoove him to adhere to any repayment plan he agrees to, at least until the statute of limitations expires. A repayment plan could include lots of things. Off the top of my head:

Cash payments of the sort you're considering.
Whatever the house is still worth.
His stake in CGL, which could be kept by the other owners or sold to bring on a new partner.
Any other assets he might have.
Any other assets he might be able to borrow.

If his actions were criminal, then his bargaining position is weak. Most people do anything they can to stay out of prison.

[Cheops]

I sympathize with your stance. However, I cannot agree with it. Your proposed method of robbing LLC of opportunity to "questionably acquire" more also robs him of the opportunity to repay the company; to repay debts; to pay freelancers. The company needs money to move forward. While some may argue for the sale of the Coleman's estate, I doubt that would be enough with the consumer boycotting new products.
a
In my opinion, voting with your wallet hurts the people in the same situation as your friend, particularly at this stage where parties are trying to correct the situation.

I want the freelancers to get paid. If I was a little better at finishinrg projects, I'd try to be one (art; not really writing) ... I just cannot see any way withholding money for good products will accomplish that.

---
Cabral (Dghost from ShadowRN and Pixel from IRC)

And ignored... so I don't get permabanned.

[Abstruse]

Personally, the politics don't mean crap to me when it comes to whether or not I'm going to be buying anymore products from CGL. It's going to be the quality of the product they produce. The best way for CGL to ensure they get my consumer dollar is to put out top-quality product. This means bringing in people who know and understand the setting and have a sincere passion for Shadowrun.

I've been reading and playing Shadowrun since I was 11 years old. I bought a copy of 2nd Ed. almost as soon as it rolled off the presses. The quality of writing from the authors, specifically Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley, hooked me. Shadowtech, Street Samurai Catalog, Universal Brotherhood, 2XS, Tir Tairngire...these books really struck a chord with me when I was younger, and I kept buying them and reading them up until just a couple of years ago (due to a lack of new product mostly...I was buying the core books and never reading them honestly, mostly by force of habit). However, I have 90% of the 1st through 3rd books and all the core 4th books. I really don't need a single scrap of paper more from Shadowrun to play to my heart's content. If there aren't any new books that I feel are up to the quality levels of those books I loved from the previous editions, I'm not going to bother buying them.

If CGL really wants my money? What they need to do is either repair the relationships with the freelancers they chased off or else make things right and scout new talent who have the same passion for the material. Talented people who are going to put the same care are attention to detail that the freelancers have been for the past two decades and change.

[kzt]

Most small businesses do - when you are faced with your clientele daily, you know that crossing them is going to spread quickly and shut you down. When the stakes get higher, when you get shareholders and have to meet earnings goals; those are the times when ethics start to blur in order to get that dollar in your wallet.

Make the month, make the quarter, make the year....

[Shinobi Killfist]

Personally, the politics don't mean crap to me when it comes to whether or not I'm going to be buying anymore products from CGL. It's going to be the quality of the product they produce. The best way for CGL to ensure they get my consumer dollar is to put out top-quality product. This means bringing in people who know and understand the setting and have a sincere passion for Shadowrun.

I've been reading and playing Shadowrun since I was 11 years old. I bought a copy of 2nd Ed. almost as soon as it rolled off the presses. The quality of writing from the authors, specifically Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley, hooked me. Shadowtech, Street Samurai Catalog, Universal Brotherhood, 2XS, Tir Tairngire...these books really struck a chord with me when I was younger, and I kept buying them and reading them up until just a couple of years ago (due to a lack of new product mostly...I was buying the core books and never reading them honestly, mostly by force of habit). However, I have 90% of the 1st through 3rd books and all the core 4th books. I really don't need a single scrap of paper more from Shadowrun to play to my heart's content. If there aren't any new books that I feel are up to the quality levels of those books I loved from the previous editions, I'm not going to bother buying them.

If CGL really wants my money? What they need to do is either repair the relationships with the freelancers they chased off or else make things right and scout new talent who have the same passion for the material. Talented people who are going to put the same care are attention to detail that the freelancers have been for the past two decades and change.

Passion is low on my list of priorities for a SR writer. I want a good rules writer and a good fluff writer. They can learn the setting, but passion does not make a poorly designed rule a good rule. I'm making no comments about past and current freelancers skills. But I don't care if they love it, loving it does not make it good. Skill makes it good. Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley loved the setting I'm sure, but that isn't what made there stuff good. There talent and skills is what made it good. There passion got them motivated to do it, and probably for less pay than they deserved. The next freelancer can hate the SR setting for all I care, if they write good rules I'm happy.

[Congzilla]

Then how do you plan on getting rid of the d-bags?

You make a statement every time you spend money. If you want to make a statement in favor of things like yacht races and luxury houses, then spend your money there.

In some thirty years of roleplaying, I've never gotten so attached to a game that I'd teach my child to support unethical business practices. There will always be RPGs to be bought, and I seriously doubt that waiting a few months or even years to buy a few books will bring down Shadowrun. There's a difference between sending a message and trying to bring down a company and IP.

Getting rid of the d-bags? I don't work there that isn't my problem. I have my own d-bags at work to get rid of. I made my statement in favor of the IP (shadowrun and Battletech), I don't care what is happening within the company, nothing has been proven in court yet. Until it is, it is nothing but he said, she said.

To insinuate I am teaching my child unethical business by passing on games I love despite what the company who produces them does? Now your just all sorts of out of line., that is just below the belt. Besides your supporting a much worse corporation every time you turn on your iPod, boot up Windows, or do a Google search. You watch NBC? NBC is owned by GE who makes your lightbulbs as well as the jet engines for many of the drones and fighter planes we use to bomb people. Not to mention the comapny that makes the Bayer Aspirin (Bayer) and the BASF media (BASF) you use also produced Zyklon B which was the Nazi's favorite product (under the corporation name IB Farben). The list of corporations doing ridiculous things to kill the planet and / or control the masses is extensive and your going to get on your high horse about someone who may or may not have stolen less than 1 million. Hell if you turned the power on in your house today your a hypocrite.

With how the market is for P&P these days there is a very very fine line between making a statement and bringing down a company.

I am sure if you looked hard enough you would find some skeletons in Milton Bradly's closet. What you not going to let your kid play Monopoly or Candy Land now?