CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Cthulhudreams]

What you not going to let your kid play Monopoly

Well no, it's a terrible game.

More to the point, are you suggesting that you wouldn't be worried about apple if Steve jobs and every designer that had worked on the ipod left and were replaced by ex-microsoft employees?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well no, it's a terrible game.

More to the point, are you suggesting that you wouldn't be worried about apple if Steve jobs and every designer that had worked on the ipod left and were replaced by ex-microsoft employees?

If he doesn't, I will answer that one... Lets see... Nope, I couldn't care any less...

Keep the Faith

[Abstruse]

Passion is low on my list of priorities for a SR writer. I want a good rules writer and a good fluff writer. They can learn the setting, but passion does not make a poorly designed rule a good rule. I'm making no comments about past and current freelancers skills. But I don't care if they love it, loving it does not make it good. Skill makes it good. Tom Dowd and Nigel Findley loved the setting I'm sure, but that isn't what made there stuff good. There talent and skills is what made it good. There passion got them motivated to do it, and probably for less pay than they deserved. The next freelancer can hate the SR setting for all I care, if they write good rules I'm happy.

Have you ever read or watched something written by someone who didn't care versus someone who does? All the talent in the world will not replace that. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd rather talent and craft over passionate drivel (which is why I'm not writing), but you cannot replace passion.

[Cthulhudreams]

If he doesn't, I will answer that one... Lets see... Nope, I couldn't care any less...

Keep the Faith

Is this because

A) you don't care about apple as a company full stop, or

B) that you don't think the quality of apple's output would be affected

in the proposed hypothetical? I find it very difficult to belive that any company can manage a massive turnover of it's workbase without quality impacts. Those that do, such as EDS, rely on strong top down driven processes and quality control measures to drive consistency across the business.

However, we know that IMR does not have these mechanics in place extrinsic to their workforce. By relying on the intrinsic knowledge of your workforce (which IMR does) you are subject to issues if your workforce turns over (which it has).

I do not see how under this scenario you can conclude that product will not be impacted. We've seen it already - IMR was literally unable to deliver on a promise to remove specific contributions to the Corporate Guide despite specific assurances to do so.

Have you ever read or watched something written by someone who didn't care versus someone who does? All the talent in the world will not replace that. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd rather talent and craft over passionate drivel (which is why I'm not writing), but you cannot replace passion.

It is funny. IMR has admitted themselves that they have not paid, or are significantly behind in paying a number of freelancers, hence the pulling of copyrights and the audit to ensure they have paid people. Given that, it's unlikely that their will be a purely finacial reward, and IMR is relying on other sources of motivation, such as passion. If there is less passion, it is probable that the quality of outcomes will be impacted.

[Congzilla]

Well no, it's a terrible game.

More to the point, are you suggesting that you wouldn't be worried about apple if Steve jobs and every designer that had worked on the ipod left and were replaced by ex-microsoft employees?

I don't think there is anyone who worked on 1e left so your argument is invalid. Aslo, there are some ex MS employees out there like Robbie Bach that I don't think would miss a beat running Apple. But most importantly, there are not any Apple IP's I care enough about to support regardless of ownership. Everything they do someone else did first and or has done better. Just not marketed as well.

[Cthulhudreams]

I don't think there is anyone who worked on 1e left so your argument is invalid. Aslo, there are some ex MS employees out there like Robbie Bach that I don't think would miss a beat running Apple. But most importantly, there are not any Apple IP's I care enough about to support regardless of ownership. Everything they do someone else did first and or has done better. Just not marketed as well.

So you do not think that a company would be impacted if a huge percentage of their employees resigned? This is extremely puzzling, and flies in the face of all availible evidence. We know high turnovers results in low quality and low customer satisfaction, and this can only be mitigated by strong process controls within the company.

But IMR doesn't HAVE any process controls within the company.

Why do you think that the brtoad academic and professional concensus in this area is wrong?

[Congzilla]

So you do not think that a company would be impacted if a huge percentage of their employees resigned? This is extremely puzzling, and flies in the face of all availible evidence. We know high turnovers results in low quality and low customer satisfaction, and this can only be mitigated by strong process controls within the company.

But IMR doesn't HAVE any process controls within the company.

Why do you think that the brtoad academic and professional concensus in this area is wrong?

I never said they wouldn't be effected. But to think SR will stop because some freelancers are gone is just idiotic. Were on edition 4 and owner 4 or so, and it hasn't stopped yet. Whatever left won't missed or will be replaced.

[Cabral]

Holy frick oldtimers out of the woodwork!

Indeed. Heya Pixel! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey guys. Since I got a job, it's been hard to keep up with the hobbies. Doesn't help that I have about two dozen... It seems to be easier now that I picked up an Evo comlink... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I really hit the ground running ... already made someone's ignore list. (Though I fear he thought I was slighting his friend, which was not my intention...)

[Shinobi Killfist]

Have you ever read or watched something written by someone who didn't care versus someone who does? All the talent in the world will not replace that. Now, don't get me wrong, I'd rather talent and craft over passionate drivel (which is why I'm not writing), but you cannot replace passion.

Yes I have, and if they were good at there job it made it a good movie or whatever. Talent replaces a lot more than passion ever will. In a perfect world you will sometimes have the full package. For rules sometimes I think not having a passion on the subject is an asset. I don't want someone passionate about SR when designing rules I want the clear headed and dispassionate. Passionate people have favorites, passionate people don't care about certain parts of the game, passionate people care more about what they want the game to be instead on what the game should be in order to be a better game. Some people can turn that off and work dispassionately when needed but not everyone is wired that way. For rules give me the people who's passion is doing a good job but don't have any really strong feelings on the game.

[Cain]

To insinuate I am teaching my child unethical business by passing on games I love despite what the company who produces them does? Now your just all sorts of out of line., that is just below the belt. Besides your supporting a much worse corporation every time you turn on your iPod, boot up Windows, or do a Google search. You watch NBC? NBC is owned by GE who makes your lightbulbs as well as the jet engines for many of the drones and fighter planes we use to bomb people. Not to mention the comapny that makes the Bayer Aspirin (Bayer) and the BASF media (BASF) you use also produced Zyklon B which was the Nazi's favorite product (under the corporation name IB Farben). The list of corporations doing ridiculous things to kill the planet and / or control the masses is extensive and your going to get on your high horse about someone who may or may not have stolen less than 1 million. Hell if you turned the power on in your house today your a hypocrite.

Now you're taking things personal. Calm down.

And for the record, I don't own a TV, IPod, or jet plane. I do use Windows, but use Android a lot more. I take it you're a Linux user, then?

I never said they wouldn't be effected. But to think SR will stop because some freelancers are gone is just idiotic. Were on edition 4 and owner 4 or so, and it hasn't stopped yet. Whatever left won't missed or will be replaced.

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier you said:

With how the market is for P&P these days there is a very very fine line between making a statement and bringing down a company.

Now, I don't know if you've read much philosophy. But I believe it was Thoreau who said that we should be choosy about our passions. I'm passionate about Shadowrun. I have a love for the game that you'd never understand. And because I love the game, I want to make sure the line is being taken care of-- handled by experts, handled with care, handled with love. Because of that, I want Shadowrun to be in the hands of great writers: writers with passion and talent, but also perserverence and longevity. I've done professional writing. Anyone can hand in a great paragraph. Being able to steadily churn out great work, year after year? That goes beyond talent.

Do I want Shadowrun in the hands of people who'll use up writers left and right? Do you? Hell no. You want quality work, year after year. And that's what some of the ex-freelancers managed to deliver. Now, how do I tell the company that I want those freelancers back, instead of bringing in new talent, wringing them dry, and grabbing more like some hungry giant? I have to send a message, and the biggest voice I have is my wallet. You claim to have a passion for Shadowrun-- how can you support people treating the line writers this way?

Yes I have, and if they were good at there job it made it a good movie or whatever. Talent replaces a lot more than passion ever will. In a perfect world you will sometimes have the full package. For rules sometimes I think not having a passion on the subject is an asset. I don't want someone passionate about SR when designing rules I want the clear headed and dispassionate. Passionate people have favorites, passionate people don't care about certain parts of the game, passionate people care more about what they want the game to be instead on what the game should be in order to be a better game. Some people can turn that off and work dispassionately when needed but not everyone is wired that way. For rules give me the people who's passion is doing a good job but don't have any really strong feelings on the game.

I disagree. Passion powers the path to perfection, and we want perfection. How many threads here have someone bitching about something in SR that isn't perfect? Only the passionate will have the energy to make things perfect.

[crizh]

IG Farben

Fixed that for ya.

If you're interested and can find a copy you should give Germany's Master Plan - The Story of an Industrial Offensive (Borkin and Welsh, 1943) a read, fascinating stuff.

[Deadmannumberone]

I disagree. Passion powers the path to perfection, and we want perfection. How many threads here have someone bitching about something in SR that isn't perfect? Only the passionate will have the energy to make things perfect.

Passion without temperance creates games like F.A.T.A.L. It does not make perfection.

[Furluge]

Just to be clear, do you mean that Tiger Eyes is lying and that she wasn't asked by by either Coleman or Bills to falisfy royalty reports?

I thought I was pretty clear in what I said. Either anyone who has made any statement might not be entirely honest, and to compound that, regardless of their honesty, their perception of what actually happened may be based on miss-communication. That means that, for any issue in this debacle, what we're hearing, as opposed to what actually happened, could be one party involved lying outright, not being completely honest and hiding information, having a recollection of events that differs from actually happened, thinking another party meant one thing when they actually meant something else, and of course the last possibility, everything actually occurred how that party stated. That's a lot of possibilities, and only two of them require the party to actually lie, and one one other requires "coloring/spinning the truth."

Why is that paragraph so long? Because I don't want you jumping up and screaming, "Furluge said Tiger Eyes is a big fat liar! I heard him say it. Boo! Hiss!" I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that I don't know Tiger Eyes, though this statement applies to Jason, Bobby, and anyone else who's ever been involved in any part of all this and has said anything regarding the events that occurred, and therefore I have no frame of reference to believe they're being honest or dishonest, and regardless if they are honest or not I have no way of knowing if their information is accurate. So, there you have it. I don't know exactly what happened. The only things I can safely say for certain did happen is the co-mingling of funds and difficulty paying freelancers, both things that CGL has admitted to. (Because let's face it, you don't admit to bad stuff you didn't do.) Everything else about "What really happened" is still unconfirmed.

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? And since when is everyone working for/ownig a share in CGL guilty by association because LLC allegedly did things?

Oh we stopped doing that ages ago. Now you're guilty once accused unless you're proven innocent. And since trials don't declare you innocent you're assumed guilty for eternity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Just ask The Ramseys how that works.

[hermit]

Do I want Shadowrun in the hands of people who'll use up writers left and right?

You say that as if FanPro and FASA would have had substantially higher ethical standards than CGL. FanPro especially left a lot of bills forever unpaid when it tanked. FASA too, I think. Both were famously late in paying for work published to boot.

Oh we stopped doing that ages ago. Now you're guilty once accused unless you're proven innocent.

Woot for mob justice and acting based on half-truths!

[Cthulhudreams]

That's a lot of possibilities, and only two of them require the party to actually lie, and one one other requires "coloring/spinning the truth."

So do you think Tiger eyes was asked to falsify royalty reports or not?

There is no third answer - 'Tiger eyes is not a credible source' is the same as 'no' in this situation. Yes, it really is that black and white.

[hermit]

So do you think Tiger eyes was asked to falsify royalty reports or not?

There is no third answer - 'Tiger eyes is not a credible source' is the same as 'no' in this situation.

There is, as he said, no black and white in this, even if you want it so much.

Saying "Things may be insinuated and/or misunderstood" does not mean the same as no. "I do not know" also is a viable answer. As much as believers would like it, the world is not binary.

[Grinder]

You say that as if FanPro and FASA would have had substantially higher ethical standards than CGL. FanPro especially left a lot of bills forever unpaid when it tanked. FASA too, I think. Both were famously late in paying for work published to boot.

Co-mingling of money, co-mingling of money! *shakes fists* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Congzilla]

Fixed that for ya.

If you're interested and can find a copy you should give Germany's Master Plan - The Story of an Industrial Offensive (Borkin and Welsh, 1943) a read, fascinating stuff.

Lol, thanks, I was just typing fast to get that out of my head before I fell asleep.

[Endroren]

Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? And since when is everyone working for/ownig a share in CGL guilty by association because LLC allegedly did things?

This isn't what I said or what I'm saying. I'm not going to get into a long, drawn out argument here - I don't think it would benefit anyone. If you want to discuss this at length, feel free to PM me. My original post isn't relevant to you, and that's cool. I was speaking to those to whom it would have relevance.

[Congzilla]

Now you're taking things personal. Calm down.

I was calm but it was still rather offensive.

And for the record, I don't own a TV, IPod, or jet plane. I do use Windows, but use Android a lot more. I take it you're a Linux user, then?

You don't need to own a jet plane to support GE, you just need to turn on a PC monitor, blender, oven, refrigerator, clothes dryer, or one of the millions of things GE subsidiaries make. And lets' not bother getting into the business practices of the corporation who made your PC monitor.

I never said they wouldn't be effected. But to think SR will stop because some freelancers are gone is just idiotic. Were on edition 4 and owner 4 or so, and it hasn't stopped yet. Whatever left won't missed or will be replaced.

You're contradicting yourself. Earlier you said:

With how the market is for P&P these days there is a very very fine line between making a statement and bringing down a company.

That actually isn't a contradiction. As stated the IP's have had several owners, Catalyst could be effected by a boycott, especially since they need liquid funds right now to get things to print to hold the ship together. My point was that the license won't die with CGL as it didn't with FASA or FanPro.

I'm passionate about Shadowrun. I have a love for the game that you'd never understand. And because I love the game, I want to make sure the line is being taken care of-- handled by experts, handled with care, handled with love. Because of that, I want Shadowrun to be in the hands of great writers: writers with passion and talent, but also perserverence and longevity. I've done professional writing. Anyone can hand in a great paragraph. Being able to steadily churn out great work, year after year? That goes beyond talent.

For starters I think you must be equating post count or date joined on Dumpshock when gauging my love for the game. No need to turn this into a swinging johnson contest over nerd love, I have been a huge SR and BT fan for twenty years now.

I disagree. Passion powers the path to perfection, and we want perfection. How many threads here have someone bitching about something in SR that isn't perfect? Only the passionate will have the energy to make things perfect.

Would you rather see sub-par material or see SR drop out of print entirely?

[Cabral]

So do you think Tiger eyes was asked to falsify royalty reports or not?

There is no third answer

Actually, there is. There is also "Tiger Eyes credibility is not beyond reproach and I cannot draw conclusions based upon her statements."

Personally, considering the general professionalism I've seen in her posts, not to mention the conviction voiced on her behalf by friends and former coworkers, I am fairly convinced of her trustworthiness. However, that is a decision for each of us to make.

Assuming that there are only two possible answers to a question is a common fallacy of logic. (See false dilemma)

[Cheops]

Passion without temperance creates games like F.A.T.A.L. It does not make perfection.

Bazinga!

I think the biggest problem for CGL going forward if it keeps the licenses is that it is primarily a BT vehicle. Judging from their often angry and hurt posts in this thread I think it is safe to say that the "replacements" do love SR. However, SR definitely has the feel of a red-headed stepchild. SR and BT are packaged together because they always have been so LLC and RB picked it up along with their golden child -- BT. The passion for SR at the highest levels is dimmed in comparison.

I do have a fondness for BT for getting me into TT gaming. There is strong nostalgia whenever I look at stuff for it. But I've grown up and my tastes in games have changed (Flames of War is awesome). Clickytech was the last failed attempt by a dying game to reclaim popularity in my corner of the world. Several old Avalon Hill games get more play at the local society and the players are friendlier and more willing to teach new blood than the singular BT table is.

[Cthulhudreams]

Actually, there is. There is also "Tiger Eyes credibility is not beyond reproach and I cannot draw conclusions based upon her statements."

Personally, considering the general professionalism I've seen in her posts, not to mention the conviction voiced on her behalf by friends and former coworkers, I am fairly convinced of her trustworthiness. However, that is a decision for each of us to make.

Assuming that there are only two possible answers to a question is a common fallacy of logic. (See false dilemma)

Your first line is exactly the same as saying 'Tiger eyes is not a credible source' except with more words.

Saying that you don't believe someone because they lack credibility, is still saying you don't believe them. Also your link is broken.

[Redjack]

Assuming that there are only two possible answers to a question is a common fallacy of logic. (See false dilemma)

I really get a splinter under my fingernails when someone tries to muddy the waters like this.

So do you think Tiger eyes was asked to falsify royalty reports or not?

Some questions do have yes/no answers and are in fact black or white.

[Warlordtheft]

Actually, there is. There is also "Tiger Eyes credibility is not beyond reproach and I cannot draw conclusions based upon her statements."

Personally, considering the general professionalism I've seen in her posts, not to mention the conviction voiced on her behalf by friends and former coworkers, I am fairly convinced of her trustworthiness. However, that is a decision for each of us to make.

Assuming that there are only two possible answers to a question is a common fallacy of logic. (See false dilemma)

Another possibility, there were differences over how and what accounting procedures with different viewpoints as to what constitutes income for purposes of royalties. Seems obvious that all monies made (aka revenue) off the IP should go towards the topps royalty payment, but that assumes that it is spelled out exactly in that manner. If it based off profits and not revenue then you get into a whole different ball game. Do you base it off of profit of each item or the line as a whole? This is where the gray areas come up and how one is supposed to account for it.

I'm not saying LLC is innocent, nor am I saying he is guilty as sin. I just want to point out that there are two sides to this story and we don't know all the details.