CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[fistandantilus4....]

ROFL it is titled 'Speculation', why would you have ever thought news would matter.

Titling a thread 'speculation' doesn't excuse people from posting inane comments and filling up posts with "rear" talking and pointless arguements. I keep waiting for this thread to show some redeeming value. So far we get one post every few pages where someone gets some decent info or someone new to the issue gets caught up. We've got 8 previous threads they can reference to do that, and I'm failing to see a point to more arguing over another thread or two or three.

If it were all simple discussion and a few debates/arguements here and there, we'd be more content with it. I personally think that it's great that people can come here and get a lot of information on what's going on. I'm not happy with the fact that most of the useful stuff is buried under nine threads of junk with a few gems here and there. I'm even less happy with the fact that we get daily Reports sent to us about one issue or another from this thread and its previous incarnations, and half the other reports we get tie back to this. Its redeeming value is fading, in my opinion at least.

[Ancient History]

So we have LLC (person: CEO of IMR;Alleged not-good person for having allegedly (with supporting documentation in the form of emails) "commingled" (read: stolen. accidental or not, this is still actionable theft [needs legal fact-check?]) 3/4 of a million dollars in assets that belonged to the company.

At least, yeah. See graphs

IMR and Topps and CGL are related how? And Wildfire, Posthuman Studios (not person LLC's), and freelancers owe fealty to whom during this period?

Catalyst Game Labs is an imprint of IMR. WildFire and Posthuman used to be published through IMR, but are now going to be publishing through a new outfit, Sandstorm LLC, which employees some former IMR employees.

My understanding is that the Shadowrun freelancers who withheld their copyrights have been paid. Some continue to work for the company, others have chosen not to (or been booted). On the BattleTech side of the house, despite also being owed money, nobody has to the best of my knowledge withdrawn copyright in an effort to get paid.

[Abstruse]

IMR and Topps and CGL are related how? And Wildfire, Posthuman Studios (not person LLC's), and freelancers owe fealty to whom during this period?

Topps = Owner of the Intellectual Property for both Shadowrun and BattleTech (after a purchase of WizKids, which got the rights after FASA folded)
IMR = InMediaRes Productions. Company licensing the rights to Shadowrun and BattleTech from Topps
CGL = Catalyst Game Labs. The actual development company that is developing/writing/editing/etc. the Shadowrun and BattleTech books and games. Wholely-owned by IMR.

There's a LOT more going on here...basically, FASA created both games (as well as many, many others including licensed products) during their long run. Eventually, they folded and Jordon K Weisman took the rights to Shadowrun and BattleTech with him when he founded WizKids (famous for MageKnight and HeroClix). WizKids was then bought by Topps (who was bought by Michael "I Already Ruined Disney So Let's Ruin Everything Else Cool" Eisner (okay, had to let my biases known on that one) and his company National Entertainment Collectibles Association).

WizKids originally licensed both Shadowrun and BattleTech to a company called FanPro, which was an American subsidiary of Fantasy Productions (something German), the company which had been doing the German translations for both games. IMR received the license to product the fiction for BattleTech in 2003. When the licenses for the actual games expired, IMR aggressively pursued them and created CGL as a subsidiary to handle the actual development while IMR would be the "business end" and a shell company. They received the license in 2007 and it was set to expire sometime between yesterday and three weeks ago depending on which source you ask. The license, as stated above, is currently being extended for an unknown period possibly to be taken away at the end or possibly to be renewed under new terms.

Hopefully, that'll work as a primer on the history (and hopefully, I got all my facts right, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong).

[Adam]

FanPro LLC was a distinct company from Fantasy Productions GmbH, not a subsidiary.

Any distinction between IMR and CGL is fairly pointless: CGL is basically just a brand name. The checks say IMR.

NECA has no relation to Eisner, that I know of. Topps and NECA are distinct; Topps sold WizKids to NECA. WizKids was founded before FASA closed.

[Kid Chameleon]

No litigation against her claims no. But she does now work for the company with whom the litigation is against,

I am unaware of any litigation between Sandstorm and IMR. I don't believe the two have ever done business.

[Jaid]

Or it means they don't think she has the money to make her worth suing. But the fact that she is now working for the company that took IP's from Catalyst, lol well now that just makes this a darned soap opera. Ok this is pure speculation so follow me on this; a conspiracy to manufacture probable cause to terminate a contract. Say a game made a lot more money than expected. The IP holder now feels unfairly compensated by the publisher. The IP holder then recruits other internal employees within the publisher to assist in manufacturing a condition granting them probable cause to terminate their contracts and reclaim the IP and print it themselves. I don't know but it sounds like an exciting run (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

CGL never had the IPs that they lost. if they owned those IPs, it could not have been taken from them without an extended and likely very unpleasant legal battle with probably a very very very low chance of succeeding. additionally, there are very readily provable ways of showing that the companies which *did* own those IPs had other completely valid reasons of leaving (ie not getting paid in a timely fashion, which iirc CGL has also admitted to, to the point of even handing over physical product to cover some of their debt)

I hope that wasn't directed at me in particular, but as I said before, for various reasons, I believe your statements to be true. I primarily objected to the assertion that there were only two valid positions.

agreed.

[RunnerPaul]

Topps = Owner of the Intellectual Property for both Shadowrun and BattleTech (after a purchase of WizKids, which got the rights after FASA folded)

Except for the rights to develop video games for both of those franchises, which FASACorp had granted to their spinoff company FASAInteractive prior to folding. FASAInteractive was then bought by Microsoft, who have since licensed those rights to Smith & Tinker, a company that FASA co-founder Jordan Weisman created after founding Alternate Reality Game producers 42 Entertainment, after founding WizKids.

Because some uninformed corporate lawyer might misconstrue character sheet assistance software as being a video game, it took an extended period of time for a license to be issued to Lone Wolf Development for them to add a Shadowrun module to their popular Hero Lab program. All the paperwork had to be examined extra carefully by multiple parties to ensure that IMR/CGL, acting on Topps behalf, wasn't licensing out to Lone Wolf something that Microsoft had given exclusive rights to Smith & Tinker to make.

[Cabral]

At least, yeah. See graphs

AH, is there anything documenting how much of those draws, if not all, are unauthorized? It is my understanding that is still uncertain.

[Ancient History]

My understanding - and I may well be wrong - is that all draws from the company are to be done equally by all owners according to their percentage ownership, after a vote. That is, instead of regular dividends the owners decide together when and how much to take out of the company. If that is indeed the case, then every one of those draws is, I believe, irregular and unauthorized by the other owners.

[SkepticInc]

So we have LLC (person: CEO of IMR/CGL;Alleged not-good person for having allegedly (with supporting documentation in the form of emails) "commingled" (read: stolen. accidental or not, this is still actionable theft [needs legal fact-check?]) 3/4 of a million dollars in assets that belonged to the company.

Topps owns the rights to Shadowrun, IMR/CGL did something bad with money, freelancers got screwed in the mean time, the Shadowrun licensing from Topps to IMR/CGL is still in place but is not currently in production, and may be suddenly revoked if the company folds on account of lawsuits.

Who is suing who again? I imagine Topps would have IMR/CGL on due diligence, and LLC (person) faces possible jail time for theft?

Is the main concern of the thread about losing SR, being mad about our favorite freelancers and writers getting screwed (or getting screwed if you are one), or justified moral outrage?

Lastly, have any of the writers worked in an evil AA corp based on IMR/CGL into any of the upcoming books yet?

[Jaid]

So we have LLC (person: CEO of IMR/CGL;Alleged not-good person for having allegedly (with supporting documentation in the form of emails) "commingled" (read: stolen. accidental or not, this is still actionable theft [needs legal fact-check?]) 3/4 of a million dollars in assets that belonged to the company.

Topps owns the rights to Shadowrun, IMR/CGL did something bad with money, freelancers got screwed in the mean time, the Shadowrun licensing from Topps to IMR/CGL is still in place but is not currently in production, and may be suddenly revoked if the company folds on account of lawsuits.

Who is suing who again? I imagine Topps would have IMR/CGL on due diligence, and LLC (person) faces possible jail time for theft?

Is the main concern of the thread about losing SR, being mad about our favorite freelancers and writers getting screwed (or getting screwed if you are one), or justified moral outrage?

Lastly, have any of the writers worked in an evil AA corp based on IMR/CGL into any of the upcoming books yet?

topps is not suing anyone in this case, to my knowledge. they apparently have someone specifically assigned to keep an eye on CGL, however, and we don't know how long the license extension that they have granted will last (and i'm not sure what you mean by licensing not in production, but CGL is still producing shadowrun and battlemech material)

CGL *is* being sued by a group of 3 creditors (last i heard, it was only 3 anyways) who feel that catalyst is unlikely to be able to ever pay the debt back.

as far as the main concern of the thread... well, that's all over the place. i'd say a little bit of all of those, but it's probably more fair to say it's a lot of all of those, and a whole host of other stuff too.

and no, any current material being written isn't likely to show up on the scene for at least several months, and that assumes it could somehow be worked into an already-existing product, which seems unlikely, to say the least.

[SkepticInc]

CGL *is* being sued by a group of 3 creditors (last i heard, it was only 3 anyways) who feel that catalyst is unlikely to be able to ever pay the debt back.

Who are the creditors? I was sort of wondering how a game company had $3/4 million for someone to embezzle anyway. Do game companies make quite a bit of money? I'd been under the impression it was not usually so (other than WotC).

[kzt]

Who are the creditors? I was sort of wondering how a game company had $3/4 million for someone to embezzle anyway. Do game companies make quite a bit of money? I'd been under the impression it was not usually so (other than WotC).

I've heard there are apparently about 250 creditors. Printers, free-lancers, family who lent money, friends who lent money, companies who formerly had a business relationship, etc. Not sure if this includes Topps, the IRS or the State of Washington tax people.

[SkepticInc]

I've heard there are apparently about 250 creditors. Printers, free-lancers, family who lent money, friends who lent money, companies who formerly had a business relationship, etc. Not sure if this includes Topps, the IRS or the State of Washington tax people.

Then if CGL survives the first 3 lawsuits, a class action suit will still likely end them?

[sirdoom]

NECA has no relation to Eisner, that I know of. Topps and NECA are distinct; Topps sold WizKids to NECA. WizKids was founded before FASA closed.

But there is a direct relationship between Eisner and Topps:

„NEW YORK, NY, Oct 2007 – The company that started it all in the trading card business when Baseball was not in the turmoil that it is in now, has inked a deal to be taken over by private equity. On Wednesday shareholders of the Topps Company (NASDAQ: TOPP) has finally approved a $385.4 million private equity takeover of the Company. The firms of Tornante Co. better known as the firm that Michael Eisners built, and Madison Dearborn Partners LLC came to terms with Topps back in March for the pricetag of $9.75 a share for Topps. It has taken this long for the votes to turn in favor of the takeover but in light of their current status this is the best route for their investors today and maybe for Topps in the long run.“

[Mesh]

„NEW YORK, NY, Oct 2007 – The company that started it all in the trading card business when Baseball was not in the turmoil that it is in now, has inked a deal to be taken over by private equity. On Wednesday shareholders of the Topps Company (NASDAQ: TOPP) has finally approved a $385.4 million private equity takeover of the Company. The firms of Tornante Co. better known as the firm that Michael Eisners built, and Madison Dearborn Partners LLC came to terms with Topps back in March for the pricetag of $9.75 a share for Topps. It has taken this long for the votes to turn in favor of the takeover but in light of their current status this is the best route for their investors today and maybe for Topps in the long run.“

Wow, nice find, sirdoom! So Topps went private in 07 at a company value of $385 million. Whewwwww! I'm about to leave for work so I'm still curious (googling) what their yearly revenue must be. It's got to be way off the chart I had them pegged on. First article I find is this one:

100 million Attax card packs sold by Topps

This really puts the Topps - CGL licensing issues in perspective. No wonder this isn't a big deal for Topps.

Mesh

[Congzilla]

Well I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers last night with my rants. I hope people took it for what it was, pure speculation for entertainments sake, and not as my actual opinion of the situation. EvE Online was down last night, that's my excuse and I am sticking to it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) .

I understand this situation has effected many people here's livelihood and I certainty wasn't trying to make light of that fact. For the record my actual opinion is that I think Tiger Eyes is being honest and I would have done the same thing in her shoes including the new job. By everything that has been presented here I think it is obvious who is to blame for the mess and who assisted them. As for JH, I think he is just trying to do what he can to keep the ship afloat and I personally don't find it appropriate for me to question his ethics in staying with CGL.

[Endroren]

Who are the creditors? I was sort of wondering how a game company had $3/4 million for someone to embezzle anyway. Do game companies make quite a bit of money? I'd been under the impression it was not usually so (other than WotC).

The story is that the "co-mingling" took place over three years, so it wasn't 3/4 mil in one pop. As for game companies making money, this is a company with two of (to my understanding of the biz) stronger licenses out there. So it isn't your usual "two-guys in the basement with a print-on-demand contract game company."

PS: I totally respect the "two-guys in the basement with a print-on-demand contract game company"s out there - in fact I'd like to be one some day. Just clarifying the type of company we're talking about.

[Endroren]

Like, for example, distracting you from the fact that the EP core rulebook is available! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

You know - I think I DID hear SOMEWHERE that the EP core rulebook is available. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (EP rocks BTW)

[Congzilla]

You know - I think I DID hear SOMEWHERE that the EP core rulebook is available. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (EP rocks BTW)

Yup just ordered mine from Amazon this morning. Any word on the Gamemaster Pack going back on sale?

[Tiger Eyes]

Yup just ordered mine from Amazon this morning. Any word on the Gamemaster Pack going back on sale?

We have the GM screen here at Origins, and it will be going into stores by the first week of August. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

I've heard there are apparently about 250 creditors. Printers, free-lancers, family who lent money, friends who lent money, companies who formerly had a business relationship, etc. Not sure if this includes Topps, the IRS or the State of Washington tax people.

.
Can you cite a source, kzt?

[Adam]

But there is a direct relationship between Eisner and Topps:

Yes. That wasn't what I was correcting.

[kzt]

.
Can you cite a source, kzt?

Frank said that he was told that by one of the creditors.

[Cabral]

Frank said that he was told that by one of the creditors.

Frank Trollman? As a contrast to what I said about Tiger Eyes, due to Frank's "professionalism", here and elsewhere, he is someone I distrust highly as a source.