CGL Speculation #9, Please review ToS before posting Options

[Bull]

Wow a post from the future! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Good thing that this is still an issue then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah yeah... I told you I was tired! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Never expect coherency from me right after a convention. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hell, don't expect it AT the con, either...

Bull

[Doc Chase]

Some unions do interesting things. For example I'm told that the IBEW union members pension plan is much more poorly funded than the IBEW union leaders pension plan. But I'll admit I haven't ever run into an incompetent commercial electrician. Ones who didn't give a damn about doing their job, yes, I've seen them, but they did know what they were doing when they decided to actually do work.

Hey, some of the unions ensure their members are properly trained - which benefits everybody.

[graywulfe]

So much for not getting into it, damn me and my ego.

...
Some unions are bad;
The UAW (auto workers union) has nearly ten times as many members as the USPS, charges nearly five times the percentage dues per member, who each make nearly 20% more per year on average. The UAW has an income of over a billion US dollars every year (though it might be a bit lower now with all the recent layoffs), and yet the estimated expenses amount to less than 50 million a year, fight for all members to keep their jobs, no matter how well or poorly they do at their job, or how poorly they treat their co-workers.

For the record, the union I was in was UAW. While I can not speak to the number of members or the yearly income of the union. Obviously I would be highly suspicious of you stated average dues given the dues I paid. I can also corroborate the statement regarding them fighting for members jobs regardless of that member deserving the job, or any other factors like that employee's history of harassing other members.

My opinion of unions is complicated. I know the negatives quite well. On the other side the company I worked with the UAW was just as bad as the union in their own way. One example being laying off dozens of employees, and shipping their jobs to Mexico while the head of the company continues to collect his 3/4 Million dollars a year pay along with his extra 1/2 - 3/4 Million dollars yearly bonus. All while the company was claiming they were not making a profit. Obviously the union couldn't do much about that but you can imagine the kinds of activities they tried that were stopped only because of the union.

I guess what I'm saying is that unions are neither good nor bad in and of themselves. Rather they are only as good or as bad as the members, especially the leadership, makes them.

Graywulfe

[otakusensei]

Which opens up a new line of speculation. Why request 6 months, when the company's stated goal is to remain publishing for the license for as long as they're in business?

Possibility one: IMR requests the longest extension they can get, to have time to put their house in order, which means that Topps initially offered an extension of a shorter time frame and IMR had to negotiate them up to their requested 6 months.

Possibility two: IMR would much rather be working under a long term multi-year contract than a short term extension, and are so confident that their bid for the next contract will be the winning one, they requested just six months to limit the amount of time for Topps to consider other possible bids.

I think you're on the right track here.

My guess is that Topps may have agreed to a 6 month for the simple reason that it could take the additional time for IMR to get the sales info together and bankruptcy case settled. The clear take away though is that Topps isn't willing to sign IMR to a long term until this is all behind them. I'm also curious if the extension is from the point where they signed, or if it is retroactive to cover from when the original agreement ran out. Doesn't affect much, but it changes the timetable and I imagine that Topps wouldn't want the lines being developed for any amount of time outside of a license.

Figuring out if they can put this behind them, and how long it will take are the questions on the table for Topps. I doubt the bankruptcy is going to be closed on the 9th. If that was so, they most likely would have taken care of things already. Seeing as things have already dragged out it's not unreasonable to think that IMR will be dealing with it through the end of the year. That's not really a good or bad sign for IMR, things could go either way depending on how they show in court and what the hard facts of the situation are and how they are presented by both sides.

Most important in hearing about the extension though, we can now look forward to more of the same type of work we've seen in the past month. Whether you chalk poor editing and inconsistencies up to the ability of the people developing or simply the current climate at IMR, brought on by the uncertainty of their situation, it doesn't look good for Shadowrun.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Some unions do interesting things. For example I'm told that the IBEW union members pension plan is much more poorly funded than the IBEW union leaders pension plan. But I'll admit I haven't ever run into an incompetent commercial electrician. Ones who didn't give a damn about doing their job, yes, I've seen them, but they did know what they were doing when they decided to actually do work.

Well you generally tend to see an incompetent electrician once. Even the competent ones tend to be early death prone.

[RunnerPaul]

I imagine that Topps wouldn't want the lines being developed for any amount of time outside of a license.

And they aren't. The previously contracted license period was extended, but that doesn't make it any less a license.

And looking back on my two possibilities post, there's a third one that I didn't mention:

Possibility Three: IMR only intends to make SR and BT product for the next six months, despite their previous public statements that they wish to remain the developer for those two franchises.

[otakusensei]

Well you generally tend to see an incompetent electrician once. Even the competent ones tend to be early death prone.

My grandfather lived a long a occasionally painful life as an amateur electrician. His example taught my father the benefits of making sure that you took the precautions to maintain proper use of your arms and general motor functions while working on household wiring. His living example taught me the value of maintaining a relationship with a skilled professional.

[Kid Chameleon]

Hey, some of the unions ensure their members are properly trained - which benefits everybody.

If one is in a DS frame of mind and reading quickly, that can appear to come off as "...some of the unicorns ensure..."

[Doc Chase]

If one is in a DS frame of mind and reading quickly, that can appear to come off as "...some of the unicorns ensure..."

This would also be 100% accurate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[emouse]

Possibility Three: IMR only intends to make SR and BT product for the next six months, despite their previous public statements that they wish to remain the developer for those two franchises.

Most business plans don't include closing in six months.

Unless Leviathans is an amazing, huge, runaway hit, that's likely what losing SR and BT would mean for IMR. They don't have any other product lines at this point.

[RunnerPaul]

Most business plans don't include closing in six months.

Unless Leviathans is an amazing, huge, runaway hit, that's likely what losing SR and BT would mean for IMR. They don't have any other product lines at this point.

Yeah, but for all we know, their lawyer is telling them behind closed doors that the odds on their pending court case aren't good, and they're making plans to close up shop and dissolve the company before the judgment hits. It'd explain why the other "owners" aren't too worried about their names not actually being on file as owners, because that just insulates them even further from any potential liability from the company folding up abruptly (and even the two listed owners are protected due to the nature of Limited Liability Companies). Sure, there's still the issue of the co-mingling of funds and the tax consequences of such, but if the company closes up and disposes of all its records in the process, that becomes much harder to investigate.

[BlueMax]

Most business plans don't include closing in six months.

Unless Leviathans is an amazing, huge, runaway hit, that's likely what losing SR and BT would mean for IMR. They don't have any other product lines at this point.

I sadly will not be purchasing Leviathans. Its been pimped so hard, that I am angry at a game I have never played.


However, there will be plenty of money from me via the
* War, Attitude and so on
* 27th Anniversary Battletech Boxset (The plan is to buy several boxes so my sons have lots of miniatures to paint.)
* A Time of War
* The Clan Boxset

BlueMax

[Furluge]

Random note from an exhausted, sleep depped GM just getting home from Gen Con... It was stated by Tara and Brent at the "What's Up With..." seminar at the convention that the extension was for 6 months, which was what CGL requested, not Topps. This was several hours before the license was finalized (And it was stated taht it was still pending finalization at the seminar) on Friday.

By the same token, Iron Wind Metal, who's been running on 6 month extensions for quite some time and has been wanting a longer extension, announced that they had gotten a 1 1/2 year extension that night as well. Which is very cool for Mike and the IWM guys.

The entire convention was very positive. Tara briefed the GMs a bit about the situation and asked that we not discuss the situation with players if they ask about it, but should refer them to Tara, Brent, or Amy at the booth. Nobody really asked anything though, and those that did comment on it, it seemed to be, as I said, very positive. The players just want to continue to get Shadowrun product.

Now... I have a Shadowrun game to sleep through. I'll have more stuff to post later tonight or tomorrow. Or Tuesday. Or something. Depends on when I wake up.

Bull

Six months huh? Still it's definitely a lot more than someone's predicted two-months. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) You're description of the GM's attitude about everything is very similar to my own experience at my LFGS. I think it's fair to say, based on what we know about how gamers usually act, that it's probably close to what the vast majority think.

[otakusensei]

Short back and forth over Twitter, thought I'd share.

Here's the original:

Looks like we won 4 out of 5 of our Origins Awards nominations...2 for BT, 1 for Poo (go WildFire) and 1 for EP (go Posthuman)! rnb

Here's my response:

@catalystgamelab Isn't Wildfire suing you right now? They cool with you calling it "our" award?

And here's what I got back:

@otakusensei Despite our current differences, we're still very proud to have been an integral part of bringing Poo to market.

Let it not be said the folks at IMR don't have a sense of humor. Made my day.

[Redjack]

@otakusensei Despite our current differences, we're still very proud to have been an integral part of bringing Poo to market.

Let it not be said the folks at IMR don't have a sense of humor. Made my day.

Anyone can make poo. You gotta just stop for a moment of respect for two companies that can not only sell it, but win awards for it... irregardless of anything else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[tete]

/tangent

Unions are good and bad. Government and Not for Profit having Unions are absurd, your not trying to make profit why are you screwing your employees? Outside of that good Unions help save workers from bad management who will cut 10,000 jobs to get his/her 1 million bonus for coming in under budget. Or say if you want your job you need to pull 60+ hr weeks without extra pay. Bad unions raise pay above industries standards and refuse to let layoffs or pay cuts happen in bad times for the company.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yeah, but for all we know, their lawyer is telling them behind closed doors that the odds on their pending court case aren't good, and they're making plans to close up shop and dissolve the company before the judgment hits. It'd explain why the other "owners" aren't too worried about their names not actually being on file as owners, because that just insulates them even further from any potential liability from the company folding up abruptly (and even the two listed owners are protected due to the nature of Limited Liability Companies). Sure, there's still the issue of the co-mingling of funds and the tax consequences of such, but if the company closes up and disposes of all its records in the process, that becomes much harder to investigate.

I love how my brain reads things some times. Initially I read Yeah, but we all know, not but for all we know. It is amazing what the difference one word makes. I'm glad I paused and reread before responding.

[Caine Hazen]

Union talk, getting WAY off topic people. Let's just reel that in an cut it off before it devolves.

Thanks

[urgru]

Yeah, but for all we know, their lawyer is telling them behind closed doors that the odds on their pending court case aren't good, and they're making plans to close up shop and dissolve the company before the judgment hits. It'd explain why the other "owners" aren't too worried about their names not actually being on file as owners, because that just insulates them even further from any potential liability from the company folding up abruptly (and even the two listed owners are protected due to the nature of Limited Liability Companies). Sure, there's still the issue of the co-mingling of funds and the tax consequences of such, but if the company closes up and disposes of all its records in the process, that becomes much harder to investigate.

Generally speaking, an involuntary petition in a case like this is less likely to be granted with each passing day. Involuntary petitioners have to show that a firm or person isn't paying its debts as they come due. A court isn't concerned so much with the past as the present and future. "Is and will this debtor be able to service its debts?" is the question being asked. And it's asked when the matter is before the judge, not as of the moment the petition was filed. Not paying people in the past is a HUGE strike, obviously, but if checks are going out the door now, the amount owed to creditors is becoming more manageable now and revenues look likely to cover the debts now and in the future . . . well, you should be able to see why time is not a friend to a group of petitioners faced with a debtor that wants to survive and has even a slim shot at fending off an attack.

For Catalyst, pushing things back to the day after GenCon has to be a huge win. Do you honestly think they're going to secure a short-term license renewal, launch new product, get good press, and then walk into court in Washington with the expectation they'll get liquidated? You could be right, I suppose, but fighting to put things off until after Con season and putting money into print product aren't actions I'd interpret as cutting and running.

Your liability insulation theory is nonsensical. The minor owners aren't worried about their status because that's a fight for later. If the firm is liquidated today, there's nothing to own tomorrow. Ken's said as much here. He's a pretty credible source considering that he's, you know, one of those owners. That's a much more logical reason to delay resolution of ownership issues than some crackpot scheme amongst the minority owners to avoid potential future liability.

IMR/Catalyst may very well end up getting liquidated, but the kind of scheming you're suggesting just doesn't make sense and wouldn't actually work. They're clearly trying to survive.

[Ancient History]

In the latest bit of weirdness from CGL, I recently heard they had sold their entire stock of Vice to PSI. Which is good, that means Vice can get out to stores, and I hear PSI are awesome. Unfortunately, that does raise some concerns about comp copies.

Comp copies are the free copies of a book a writer or artist gets as part of their contracted compensation; it's nice to have a couple books come in the mail with your name on them, so that you can sell them on ebay or show them to your parents to prove you haven't been just dicking around on the internet for the last couple months. What most people don't realize is that freelancers (or ex-freelancers, as the case may be) don't get their comp copies automatically when the book hits the street; CGL only mails them out once or twice a year...usually but not always according to some arcane schedule and/or exhaustive bitching on someone's part, I'm not sure. (LEs are a different animal, where usually they reserve a couple so freelancers have a chance to buy them...it gets weird).

But, the thing is, CGL just sold all of their copies of Vice to PSI. All of them. Including the ones that should have been reserved for freelancers (or ex-freelancers, as the case may be, like my case). So if CGL doesn't want to default on their contracts, they're going to have to actually buy copies back from PSI...or so I presume. I mean, sent CGL an e-mail about it, and they haven't deigned to respond yet. Presumably because they're in full con-recovery mode. Still.

[Bull]

*looks at thread post count*

*waves*

Should be about time for a new thread!

[otakusensei]

Generally speaking, an involuntary petition in a case like this is less likely to be granted with each passing day. Involuntary petitioners have to show that a firm or person isn't paying its debts as they come due. A court isn't concerned so much with the past as the present and future. "Is and will this debtor be able to service its debts?" is the question being asked. And it's asked when the matter is before the judge, not as of the moment the petition was filed. Not paying people in the past is a HUGE strike, obviously, but if checks are going out the door now, the amount owed to creditors is becoming more manageable now and revenues look likely to cover the debts now and in the future . . . well, you should be able to see why time is not a friend to a group of petitioners faced with a debtor that wants to survive and has even a slim shot at fending off an attack.

For Catalyst, pushing things back to the day after GenCon has to be a huge win. Do you honestly think they're going to secure a short-term license renewal, launch new product, get good press, and then walk into court in Washington with the expectation they'll get liquidated? You could be right, I suppose, but fighting to put things off until after Con season and putting money into print product aren't actions I'd interpret as cutting and running.

Your liability insulation theory is nonsensical. The minor owners aren't worried about their status because that's a fight for later. If the firm is liquidated today, there's nothing to own tomorrow. Ken's said as much here. He's a pretty credible source considering that he's, you know, one of those owners. That's a much more logical reason to delay resolution of ownership issues than some crackpot scheme amongst the minority owners to avoid potential future liability.

IMR/Catalyst may very well end up getting liquidated, but the kind of scheming you're suggesting just doesn't make sense and wouldn't actually work. They're clearly trying to survive.

A lot of what IMR is doing right now can be construed as putting on an act rather than operating in a normal manner. The two can be remarkably similar, the differences being that a real functioning company with something to prove would be taking the time to distinguish themselves and their product, while someone looking to turn a quick buck while they still have a license would be cranking out anything they can PDF. IMR has released street dates, but they have rarely been set in stone as I recall.

In a career of isolated incidents it would be easy to take the news of IMR selling all their Vice copies to PSI as an honest mistake. However given their past unprofessional behavior and slapdash business practices it's just more fuel for the fire. For the sake of the people due copies of their own work under contract I hope the rumor is untrue or IMR makes good somehow.

[Demonseed Elite]

In a career of isolated incidents it would be easy to take the news of IMR selling all their Vice copies to PSI as an honest mistake. However given their past unprofessional behavior and slapdash business practices it's just more fuel for the fire. For the sake of the people due copies of their own work under contract I hope the rumor is untrue or IMR makes good somehow.

I agree. Continuing mistakes this area--whether real mistakes or not--can't keep happening.

[Mesh]

A lot of what IMR is doing right now can be construed as putting on an act rather than operating in a normal manner. The two can be remarkably similar, the differences being that a real functioning company with something to prove would be taking the time to distinguish themselves and their product, while someone looking to turn a quick buck while they still have a license would be cranking out anything they can PDF. IMR has released street dates, but they have rarely been set in stone as I recall.

In a career of isolated incidents it would be easy to take the news of IMR selling all their Vice copies to PSI as an honest mistake. However given their past unprofessional behavior and slapdash business practices it's just more fuel for the fire. For the sake of the people due copies of their own work under contract I hope the rumor is untrue or IMR makes good somehow.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohplease.gif) I'm finally finished with this thread. It has at least stayed true to its Title and Speculated.

Mesh

[urgru]

A lot of what IMR is doing right now can be construed as putting on an act rather than operating in a normal manner. The two can be remarkably similar, the differences being that a real functioning company with something to prove would be taking the time to distinguish themselves and their product, while someone looking to turn a quick buck while they still have a license would be cranking out anything they can PDF. IMR has released street dates, but they have rarely been set in stone as I recall.

In a career of isolated incidents it would be easy to take the news of IMR selling all their Vice copies to PSI as an honest mistake. However given their past unprofessional behavior and slapdash business practices it's just more fuel for the fire. For the sake of the people due copies of their own work under contract I hope the rumor is untrue or IMR makes good somehow.

Of course they're not operating in a normal manner. This isn't a normal business situation. Expecting them to act like its 2005 is stupid. I've taken some shots at the quality of the editing in the TRO:3085 previews, so I feel your pain on that front . . . but new print products at the conventions are key indicators of life and vitality for a firm under legal attack. End of the day, I'd push it out the door too.

If this was an act, they'd not be putting money into printing. They'd not be hiring a new accountant to replace Jen. They'd not be taking the time to streamline the customer service e-mails. That's time and money that wouldn't be invested if the goal was to maximize short term return w. the expectation the license is a lost cause or the bankruptcy a foregone conclusion. At the end of the day, it may be too little, too late. Hell, the Vice thing sounds pretty inept. Nonetheless, I think it's time to stop suggesting that people still with IMR - other than the Colemans - are looking to burn the proverbial house down. This is business, not Lost. It's entirely possible to be a bad businessperson without being a malicious douche.