Defense in melee, Can I block a firearm Options

[sabs]

I was aware of that, but there is no reason why a sword/staff wielding guy will not just try to hit the oponent's hand/gun to take out his aim, instead of dodging, which takes much more work and more time. But that enters on the whole "realism" thingy that sometimes we allow to slide.

There are many MANY techniques for disarming an opponent with a gun when you have a sword or unarmed. As long as you're in melee range. I've done it. Although not in a real combat situation, I'm not that good. If someone had a martial art form, I would totally allow it.

[WarpedAzz]

I think I'll just have to ask my GM before making the character. Without the defense Im struggling to see the point of a melée character.
Obviously it is all going to depend on the individual circumstances, but on a straight up comparison basis I think the melée fairs poorly.
complex action vs simple. 1 attack vs 2.
Need to be point blank vs any range.
Benefit of reach vs smart gun link
Defense of Reaction only vs reaction plus skill(defender in melée combat is also at -3 vs ranged combat so getting up close is a big disadvantage)
Similar damage though impact armor is usually not as good.

So on a straight up mechanics point guns win hands down. Guns have their drawbacks, ammo, legality etc but I'm only looking at mechanics.

[LurkerOutThere]

That mod is for hitting people with the weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I would allow a Disarm, myself, but that's not parrying the gun. There's a difference between stopping a held weapon from striking your body (block/parry) and stopping someone from simply managing to get the muzzle pointed at you. Give the attacker the penalty for firing in melee, and let the defender use Full Dodge.

I will disagree entirely, if two are already closed in melee then the fundamental question between blocking a gun and blocking a stab are the same, can you keep the hurty bits away from you and can you keep their arms in a position that keeps them from huritng you.

For what it's worth at my tables I would allow someone to parry as opposed to dodge. I understand that this is not RAW, but this is one of those cases where RAW doesn't seem to map right.

[Dakka Dakka]

I was aware of that, but there is no reason why a sword/staff wielding guy will not just try to hit the oponent's hand/gun to take out his aim, instead of dodging, which takes much more work and more time. But that enters on the whole "realism" thingy that sometimes we allow to slide.

This works well if the opponent is quicker than the shooter, but if he isn't he can only remove the gun after he has been shot twice at point blank range

Yeah sorry, i should have checked to see if its in a non anniversary corebook and indicate that its a new addition, sometimes i kinda forget that not everyone has their books handy when posting and not everyone have SR4A period.

I was just too lazy to compare, and remembered that when Arsenal came out, I wondered, why the heck they introduced that modifier without limiting it to when the target is restrained or surprised i.e. can't defend himself anyway.

And i kinda agree with you on that only -1 for shooting in a melee fight is a little too small, especially as with smartial arts you can turn that into a net +1(maybe even +2) by reducing the penalty.
I was just posting what the RAW of the matter is.

Fortunately it doesn't work that way. The advantages only lets you "reduce the ranged combat “attacker in melee combat” modifier", not generally add dice, just as with recoil compensation. Otherwise you could get a ridiculous amount of bonus dice with enough Karma: +2 from fire Fight, +1 form Krav Maga, +1 from Hassidut, +1 ROSS for a total of +5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

So on a straight up mechanics point guns win hands down. Guns have their drawbacks, ammo, legality etc but I'm only looking at mechanics.

That is why in real life armed forces use assault rifles and not swords except for ceremonial purposes, and bayonets aren't used regularly either.

[Aerospider]

Haha. Your tough to convince.

Actually I thought I was leaning more to your persuasion in the debate. Maybe that's not come across well.

Seriously though. Not being able to parry/block also prevents the defender from trying to disarm the firearm (as per the disarm maneuver).

You can disarm, but it's a maneuver to be executed in an attack rather than as a defensive reaction. I think this is somewhat flawed.

[Aerospider]

Just throwing this out there, not having given it much analytical thought –

– are there any insurmountable issues that would occur if the gunman attacked with ranged combat rules and the swordsman defended with melee combat rules?

[Dakka Dakka]

– are there any insurmountable issues that would occur if the gunman attacked with ranged combat rules and the swordsman defended with melee combat rules?

Against a skilled opponent the shooter would just waste ammo.

[sabs]

Honestly speaking in a point blank fight, the guy with the knife is way more dangerous than the guy with the gun.
The gun only has one part that hurts the point. The knife can slice, stab, do reverse hits.

I would allow someone to use intuition+melee to dodge/parry weapons fire at point blank range. But I would make them roll for every IP. If the guy with the gun has more IP's than you do...

Also, I would allow someone to attempt to do a disarm instead of a dodge/parry but if they fail the disarm, then the guy with the gun gets an automatic hit attack for free.

[Mr. Mage]

I was going to bring up Equilibrium's final fight scene, but I see so many people already mentioned it...

At one point, one of my player's decided to try and bring a gun to point blank range against someone they were trying to intimidate. The NPC then promptly kicked the gun out of the PC's hand. I suppose that would be more of an attack than a defense action but I personally would have no problem with allowing a character to parry a gun arm. I think I'd treat it more as a counter-attack/grapple though and I would probably still make you use an IP....

[DrZaius]

I was about to post a long diatribe about RAW, but then I looked it up and Max is right.

"Target Point -Blank
A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack.
Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier." pg. 153 SR4A BBB

and

"Attacker in Melee Combat
If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged
in melee combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to block
his attack within two meters of him, the attack suffers a –3 modifier." pg 150 SR4A BBB

= -1 to the attack.

That said, I think the GM and players could agree ahead of time what is reasonable. I always interpreted "point blank" as the hostage scenario, i.e. a situation where it's extremely difficult to miss (like when you have a gun to someone's head). I think a troll swinging a sword at me would be a situation where it would be very easy to miss. It also doesn't account for weapon size in any sense; imo (and I think most people would agree) firing an assault rifle while in melee should be more difficult than something like a hold-out pistol. The rules don't support this in any way however; which is the sticking point. If you're planning on playing a melee character, I think the best advice is just to figure out ahead of time with your GM how they will rule on this issue, so you don't get side-tracked mid-session.

[Yerameyahu]

I think point blank simply means 'close'.

Again, there's nothing wrong with allowing a disarm action. It's just not a *parry*, and you don't get it for free. Use Full Dodge, problem solved.

It's no kind of argument to say, 'otherwise, melee sucks'. … Duh. Melee does suck. Stab the guy before he shoots you.

[Mr. Mage]

It's no kind of argument to say, 'otherwise, melee sucks'. … Duh. Melee does suck. Stab the guy before he shoots you.

Indiana Jones in "Raiders". The scene where there's a guy just swinging around his sword and Indy pulls out his gun and shoots him.

If I recall correctly, according to some documentary or something that scene was supposed to have a big long fight where Indy was using his whip to defeat the swordsman, until one of the writer's pointed out that Indy could just shoot the guy instead...

[Dumori]

Actually its -1 to his dicepool as he also gets the +2 point-blank modifier

You DON'T get point blank when in melee. So it's more a -5 mod.

[Doc Chase]

Indiana Jones in "Raiders". The scene where there's a guy just swinging around his sword and Indy pulls out his gun and shoots him.

If I recall correctly, according to some documentary or something that scene was supposed to have a big long fight where Indy was using his whip to defeat the swordsman, until one of the writer's pointed out that Indy could just shoot the guy instead...

It was Ford himself who suggested it, suffering from dysentary at the time.

[Medicineman]

Actually its -1 to his dicepool as he also gets the +2 point-blank modifier

Thats not quite right:)
You get the Point Blank Bonus only if you're NOT in Melee.Once you enter Melee
and so fights actively than it's -3 DP

he who dances in Melee
Medicineman

[LurkerOutThere]

I don't want melee to be superior or frankly even equal to gunplay other then what is dictated by rule of cool, but if your a gun fighter and you allow your enemy to close with you you kind of deserve what comes next.

[Mr. Mage]

It was Ford himself who suggested it, suffering from dysentary at the time.

Ah...was pretty sure someone mentioned it...assumed it would be a writer, but Ford mentioning it makes sense.

[WarpedAzz]

You DON'T get point blank when in melee. So it's more a -5 mod.

-5?
The 20th anniversary edition says
"A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack. Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in melée combat modifier.

Offset definitely reads to me that they are both appropriate.

[LurkerOutThere]

The way I always heard the story is Ford pulled his gun on a lark, being hot and sweaty and suffering from the above mentioned dysentary, and the stunt guy playing the swordsman rolled with it and Speilberg liked the reaction so much he just went with it.

[Doc Chase]

The way I always heard the story is Ford pulled his gun on a lark, being hot and sweaty and suffering from the above mentioned dysentary, and the stunt guy playing the swordsman rolled with it and Speilberg liked the reaction so much he just went with it.

It was a gag take, yar. And to keep 'sort of' on topic, how much reach would the whip have had versus the scimitar? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[sabs]

Indiana Jones in "Raiders". The scene where there's a guy just swinging around his sword and Indy pulls out his gun and shoots him.

If I recall correctly, according to some documentary or something that scene was supposed to have a big long fight where Indy was using his whip to defeat the swordsman, until one of the writer's pointed out that Indy could just shoot the guy instead...

Sure but that guy was nowhere NEAR melee range.

The ideal range for handguns is close, but not too close.
If you're in Melee range with a hand gun, you've got issues. But I would allow either full dodge (but let the player use a martial art skill for dodge) OR I'd allow the player to do an opposed intuition+melee vs intuition+firearm skill. If melee wins he can disarm, or do damage, if shooter wins, he gets a free shot that doesnt' cost him IP.

[Dakka Dakka]

Why Intuition and not Reaction?

I think I remember reading some study about knife vs. gun fights that if the pistol is holstered the gun usually wins if the knifefighter is 7m or more away. With a drawn sidearm the danger zone is smaller, but I don't remember how much.

[Yerameyahu]

I really think just allowing a disarm action to be taken is wholly adequate to the situation. As I understand it, the thread was originally asking about giving a *free* parry (or even disarm) to someone defending against being shot.

[Mr. Mage]

Sure but that guy was nowhere NEAR melee range.

Yea...well...the way something looks in RL or on screen doesn't necessarily translate perfectly to a PnP game....but hopefully you get why I thought it was relevant to this thread.

[sabs]

Why Intuition and not Reaction?

I think I remember reading some study about knife vs. gun fights that if the pistol is holstered the gun usually wins if the knifefighter is 7m or more away. With a drawn sidearm the danger zone is smaller, but I don't remember how much.

Reaction would work too. My thinking for intuition is because it's almost impossible to react fast enough to actually hit someone at point blank range who is actively parrying, unless you're actually just shooting them. If you walk up to them and start shooting, that's probably reaction. But if you walk up to them and hold the gun at point blank range, then it's almost impossible to get the shot off before the person moves.

I would require full dodge until the person got to 1m > range. After that I'd allow opposed roles. Reaction + skill would work just as well.


7M is not melee range though
1M or less is melee range.