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WarpedAzz
If my character is in melée with someone and instead of attacking with a melée weapon they decide to shoot me do I defend against this attack as if it was a melée attack or a standard ranged attack?
I realize that my opponent has a -2 die pool mod for using a firearm in melée.
I ask as I'm making a troll using two swords and the two weapon style maneuver. But if my opponent can simply out maneuver this defense by using a gun, it hardly seems worth while.
Makki
you can't, but he gets -3
Mäx
QUOTE (Makki @ Jun 16 2010, 10:59 AM) *
you can't, but he gets -3

Actually its -1 to his dicepool as he also gets the +2 point-blank modifier
Aerospider
Standard ranged attack defence, so Reaction on its own or Reaction + Dodge/Gymnastics if you give up an IP.

There are things you can do to make it less of an issue. For one, make sure you have 2 or 3 IPs so that you can use an active defence and still attack back against slower opponents. Maneuvres can help too, like the disarm maneuvre.

This is a very feasible build: With a troll your swords are likely to have the same kind of damage value as a firearm, you can attack twice and you have +2 reach whilst he has -1 for defending a second attack and -3 to hit you in return. Also, on top of your high body rating and natural armour you get to use ballistic whereas he has to use impact, which is commonly the lower of the two.

You might want to discuss it with your GM since he's in control of the modifiers. For example, if I were your GM I might agree a defence penalty to someone wielding a two-handed firearm (like a firearm) in melee since it's a lot harder to dodge, parry or block with hands a fixed width apart.

You know, the more I think about it the more I'm inclined to allow a block or parry defence. The final fight scene in equilibrium is something I never want to make impossible.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 16 2010, 10:15 AM) *
Actually its -1 to his dicepool as he also gets the +2 point-blank modifier

I thought about that, but decided it was a silly idea. -1 is far too small a penalty for trying to shoot someone as they punch/slice/batter you silly.
I think it's reasonable to assume that the point blank nature of melee is factored into the -3.

He would get a big target bonus though.
WarpedAzz
Not being able to use parry is a 10 die pool difference for a 5 skill character who has two weapon maneuver and hasn't got any further defense adds. Lowering your opponents defense by that much is sure worth the penalty, be it -1 or -3.
If any character has someone coming at them with two weapons, even if the defender is good at melée, would probably be better off pulling a gun. As an added bonus guns would be able to shoot twice as opposed to the complex action melée attack.
Wait a minute, I just reread the Ranged Combat- attacker in melée combat,
"If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged in melée combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to [/size]block[size="2"] his attack within two metros of him, the attack suffers a -3 modifier(emphasis mine)

Is this a strong argument for allowing the block in melée? How can the attacker be aware of someone trying to bock the attack if you can't block ranged attacks?


Dakka Dakka
Don't forget that the point-blank modifier is an optional rule, you are in no way obliged to use it. I agree that a net -1 is to smalll a penalty.

@using two melee weapons: Not only do you get your reach bonus and the defender a penalty for the second attack, you also get a + for friends in melee. The problem with this tactic however is that you have to split your dice pool. So unless you got lots of positive dicepool modifiers and no negative ones, you're probably better off buying the two-weapon styale maneuver and attacking only once. with it you can go on full defence while attacking.
Mäx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 16 2010, 01:02 PM) *
Don't forget that the point-blank modifier is an optional rule, you are in no way obliged to use it. I agree that a net -1 is to smalll a penalty.

Not in anyway more the any other ranged combat modifier from BBB.
Dakka Dakka
Even less so:
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 161')
All of them are considered optional rules, so before adding these rules to a game, the gamemaster and players should review the rules and agree to their use.
WarpedAzz

The rules contradict themselves. The definition of melée combat in the rule book says "or armed combat that does not involve range weapons". So how can an attacker be engaged in melée if he is using a ranged weapon? One of the requirements for the modifier.
As far as the level of penalty, not every character shooting in melée is trying to shoot his immediate opponent. Maybe he is trying to shoot the Mage lurking at the back.

The rules also don't mention defending against armed melée attacks. I'm still interested as to how the shooter can suffer the -3 penalty if he us aware of someone trying to block his attack if blocking ranged attacks isn't possible.
Ascalaphus
Personally I'd allow blocking. While ranged combat (simple) actions are described as mostly trigger-pulling, a melee (complex) action is said to be much more; positioning, feinting, seeking openings and protecting yourself.

Also, it seems more balanced. Melee fighters spend complex actions to make attacks after all.
Mäx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 16 2010, 01:12 PM) *
Even less so:

Target point blank is modifier is in the SR4A corebook, i thought that was kinda obvius from the way i wrote that.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 16 2010, 12:02 PM) *
@using two melee weapons: Not only do you get your reach bonus and the defender a penalty for the second attack, you also get a + for friends in melee.

Hang on a minute, are you saying that by using two swords to attack twice you are effectively outnumbering your opponent and therefore count as having a +1 friends bonus to each attack?

That's really pushing the bounds of credibility for me. Besides, you've already got the bonus of duplicated modifiers and a -1 penalty to your opponent for receiving a second attack.
Aerospider
QUOTE (WarpedAzz @ Jun 16 2010, 12:01 PM) *
Not being able to use parry is a 10 die pool difference for a 5 skill character who has two weapon maneuver and hasn't got any further defense adds. Lowering your opponents defense by that much is sure worth the penalty, be it -1 or -3.
If any character has someone coming at them with two weapons, even if the defender is good at melée, would probably be better off pulling a gun. As an added bonus guns would be able to shoot twice as opposed to the complex action melée attack.
Wait a minute, I just reread the Ranged Combat- attacker in melée combat,
"If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged in melée combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to [/size]block[size="2"] his attack within two metros of him, the attack suffers a -3 modifier(emphasis mine)

Is this a strong argument for allowing the block in melée? How can the attacker be aware of someone trying to bock the attack if you can't block ranged attacks?

I think they're using another definition of 'block' here. By the way they've said "engaged in melee or ..." I'd imagine they mean you're shooting at a distant target and someone you don't want to shoot is trying to get in the way or put you off or something.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 16 2010, 01:35 PM) *
Target point blank is modifier is in the SR4A corebook, i thought that was kinda obvius from the way i wrote that.
Oh, It wasn't in SR4. I haven't gone through SR4A with a fine toothed comb. A net -1 for using a gun, any gun even long arms, in melee range is ridiculous.
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jun 16 2010, 01:41 PM) *
Hang on a minute, are you saying that by using two swords to attack twice you are effectively outnumbering your opponent and therefore count as having a +1 friends bonus to each attack?

That's really pushing the bounds of credibility for me. Besides, you've already got the bonus of duplicated modifiers and a -1 penalty to your opponent for receiving a second attack.

But those are the rules:
QUOTE ('Arsenal p. 163')
Someone who is simultaneously attacked with two weapons suffers a –1 defense modifier. Note that the defender is also forced
to defend against two attacks with this rule, so also he receives a –1 modifier on the second Defense Test for already defending against a previous attack (see pp. 150–151, SR4). Th is means, in total, the defender suffers –1 against one attack and –2 against the other.
So it is even worse than I said. The first -1 is not a friends in melee modifier but an unnamed one.

Whether this is realistic is of course debatable, just like the net -1 for firing in melee.

Duplicated modifiers are only a bonus in the best of all circumstances. Calculate it with wounds, impaired visibility and something other than your favorite weapon (focus), and dual-wielding quickly becomes a poor choice.
Aerospider
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 16 2010, 01:11 PM) *
But those are the rules:
So it is even worse than I said. The first -1 is not a friends in melee modifier but an unnamed one.

Ah, yes, forgot about that modifier.

It's worth noting, though, that a +1 on one side (like a friends bonus) is almost never probabilistically equivalent to a -1 on the other (like a being-attacked-with-two-weapons penalty).
Yerameyahu
I wouldn't invent a -3, and you can't parry. Don't bring a knife to a gun fight.
WarpedAzz
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jun 16 2010, 11:44 AM) *
I think they're using another definition of 'block' here. By the way they've said "engaged in melee or ..." I'd imagine they mean you're shooting at a distant target and someone you don't want to shoot is trying to get in the way or put you off or something.


Haha. Your tough to convince. So do you think "getting in the way" is a complex or simple action? Presumeably an interrupt? (tongue firmly in check).

Seriously though. Not being able to parry/block also prevents the defender from trying to disarm the firearm (as per the disarm maneuver).

I think Ascalaphus and I are thinking the same.

I can't see how you get "the friends in melée" bonus for attacking with two weapons as well as the defender being -1/-2 defense against the two attacks.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (WarpedAzz @ Jun 16 2010, 02:32 PM) *
I can't see how you get "the friends in melée" bonus for attacking with two weapons as well as the defender being -1/-2 defense against the two attacks.
That was my mistake talking from memory. You only get -1/-2.
WarpedAzz
So if the answer is don't bring a knife to a gunfight what is the point of a melée character?
Yerameyahu
You could allow a special Disarm action to grab a gun, but unless they're clubbing you with the gun, you're not parrying it.
Garou
I see allow parrying in my games. Okay, i know the "no knives in gunfight motto", but once you get into melee range, it is not a gun fight anymore, it is a knife fight, in a way. smile.gif but speaking seriously, i allow it, even because most long range weapons would leave that fight rather damaged, AND there is a specific modification on Arsenal that allows weapons to be used in melee combat without being damaged or misfire.
Yerameyahu
That mod is for hitting people with the weapon. smile.gif

I would allow a Disarm, myself, but that's not parrying the gun. There's a difference between stopping a held weapon from striking your body (block/parry) and stopping someone from simply managing to get the muzzle pointed at you. Give the attacker the penalty for firing in melee, and let the defender use Full Dodge.

Maybe require a Take Aim action to get the +2 from Point Blank, to represent the effort of getting a clear shot ready?
Garou
I was aware of that, but there is no reason why a sword/staff wielding guy will not just try to hit the oponent's hand/gun to take out his aim, instead of dodging, which takes much more work and more time. But that enters on the whole "realism" thingy that sometimes we allow to slide.
Mäx
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 16 2010, 02:11 PM) *
Oh, It wasn't in SR4. I haven't gone through SR4A with a fine toothed comb. A net -1 for using a gun, any gun even long arms, in melee range is ridiculous.

Yeah sorry, i should have checked to see if its in a non anniversary corebook and indicate that its a new addition, sometimes i kinda forget that not everyone has their books handy when posting and not everyone have SR4A period.

And i kinda agree with you on that only -1 for shooting in a melee fight is a little too small, especially as with smartial arts you can turn that into a net +1(maybe even +2) by redusing the penalty.
I was just posting what the RAW of the matter is.
sabs
QUOTE (Garou @ Jun 16 2010, 02:07 PM) *
I was aware of that, but there is no reason why a sword/staff wielding guy will not just try to hit the oponent's hand/gun to take out his aim, instead of dodging, which takes much more work and more time. But that enters on the whole "realism" thingy that sometimes we allow to slide.


There are many MANY techniques for disarming an opponent with a gun when you have a sword or unarmed. As long as you're in melee range. I've done it. Although not in a real combat situation, I'm not that good. If someone had a martial art form, I would totally allow it.
WarpedAzz
I think I'll just have to ask my GM before making the character. Without the defense Im struggling to see the point of a melée character.
Obviously it is all going to depend on the individual circumstances, but on a straight up comparison basis I think the melée fairs poorly.
complex action vs simple. 1 attack vs 2.
Need to be point blank vs any range.
Benefit of reach vs smart gun link
Defense of Reaction only vs reaction plus skill(defender in melée combat is also at -3 vs ranged combat so getting up close is a big disadvantage)
Similar damage though impact armor is usually not as good.

So on a straight up mechanics point guns win hands down. Guns have their drawbacks, ammo, legality etc but I'm only looking at mechanics.

LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 16 2010, 06:58 AM) *
That mod is for hitting people with the weapon. smile.gif

I would allow a Disarm, myself, but that's not parrying the gun. There's a difference between stopping a held weapon from striking your body (block/parry) and stopping someone from simply managing to get the muzzle pointed at you. Give the attacker the penalty for firing in melee, and let the defender use Full Dodge.


I will disagree entirely, if two are already closed in melee then the fundamental question between blocking a gun and blocking a stab are the same, can you keep the hurty bits away from you and can you keep their arms in a position that keeps them from huritng you.

For what it's worth at my tables I would allow someone to parry as opposed to dodge. I understand that this is not RAW, but this is one of those cases where RAW doesn't seem to map right.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Garou @ Jun 16 2010, 03:07 PM) *
I was aware of that, but there is no reason why a sword/staff wielding guy will not just try to hit the oponent's hand/gun to take out his aim, instead of dodging, which takes much more work and more time. But that enters on the whole "realism" thingy that sometimes we allow to slide.
This works well if the opponent is quicker than the shooter, but if he isn't he can only remove the gun after he has been shot twice at point blank range

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 16 2010, 03:11 PM) *
Yeah sorry, i should have checked to see if its in a non anniversary corebook and indicate that its a new addition, sometimes i kinda forget that not everyone has their books handy when posting and not everyone have SR4A period.
I was just too lazy to compare, and remembered that when Arsenal came out, I wondered, why the heck they introduced that modifier without limiting it to when the target is restrained or surprised i.e. can't defend himself anyway.

QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 16 2010, 03:11 PM) *
And i kinda agree with you on that only -1 for shooting in a melee fight is a little too small, especially as with smartial arts you can turn that into a net +1(maybe even +2) by reducing the penalty.
I was just posting what the RAW of the matter is.
Fortunately it doesn't work that way. The advantages only lets you "reduce the ranged combat “attacker in melee combat” modifier", not generally add dice, just as with recoil compensation. Otherwise you could get a ridiculous amount of bonus dice with enough Karma: +2 from fire Fight, +1 form Krav Maga, +1 from Hassidut, +1 ROSS for a total of +5 silly.gif

QUOTE (WarpedAzz @ Jun 16 2010, 03:20 PM) *
So on a straight up mechanics point guns win hands down. Guns have their drawbacks, ammo, legality etc but I'm only looking at mechanics.
That is why in real life armed forces use assault rifles and not swords except for ceremonial purposes, and bayonets aren't used regularly either.
Aerospider
QUOTE (WarpedAzz @ Jun 16 2010, 01:32 PM) *
Haha. Your tough to convince.

Actually I thought I was leaning more to your persuasion in the debate. Maybe that's not come across well.

QUOTE (WarpedAzz @ Jun 16 2010, 01:32 PM) *
Seriously though. Not being able to parry/block also prevents the defender from trying to disarm the firearm (as per the disarm maneuver).

You can disarm, but it's a maneuver to be executed in an attack rather than as a defensive reaction. I think this is somewhat flawed.
Aerospider
Just throwing this out there, not having given it much analytical thought –

– are there any insurmountable issues that would occur if the gunman attacked with ranged combat rules and the swordsman defended with melee combat rules?
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Aerospider @ Jun 16 2010, 03:36 PM) *
– are there any insurmountable issues that would occur if the gunman attacked with ranged combat rules and the swordsman defended with melee combat rules?
Against a skilled opponent the shooter would just waste ammo.
sabs
Honestly speaking in a point blank fight, the guy with the knife is way more dangerous than the guy with the gun.
The gun only has one part that hurts the point. The knife can slice, stab, do reverse hits.

I would allow someone to use intuition+melee to dodge/parry weapons fire at point blank range. But I would make them roll for every IP. If the guy with the gun has more IP's than you do...

Also, I would allow someone to attempt to do a disarm instead of a dodge/parry but if they fail the disarm, then the guy with the gun gets an automatic hit attack for free.
Mr. Mage
I was going to bring up Equilibrium's final fight scene, but I see so many people already mentioned it...

At one point, one of my player's decided to try and bring a gun to point blank range against someone they were trying to intimidate. The NPC then promptly kicked the gun out of the PC's hand. I suppose that would be more of an attack than a defense action but I personally would have no problem with allowing a character to parry a gun arm. I think I'd treat it more as a counter-attack/grapple though and I would probably still make you use an IP....
DrZaius
I was about to post a long diatribe about RAW, but then I looked it up and Max is right.

"Target Point -Blank
A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack.
Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in Melee Combat modifier." pg. 153 SR4A BBB

and

"Attacker in Melee Combat
If the attacker is attempting to conduct a ranged attack while engaged
in melee combat, or if he is aware of another character trying to block
his attack within two meters of him, the attack suffers a –3 modifier." pg 150 SR4A BBB

= -1 to the attack.

That said, I think the GM and players could agree ahead of time what is reasonable. I always interpreted "point blank" as the hostage scenario, i.e. a situation where it's extremely difficult to miss (like when you have a gun to someone's head). I think a troll swinging a sword at me would be a situation where it would be very easy to miss. It also doesn't account for weapon size in any sense; imo (and I think most people would agree) firing an assault rifle while in melee should be more difficult than something like a hold-out pistol. The rules don't support this in any way however; which is the sticking point. If you're planning on playing a melee character, I think the best advice is just to figure out ahead of time with your GM how they will rule on this issue, so you don't get side-tracked mid-session.
Yerameyahu
I think point blank simply means 'close'.

Again, there's nothing wrong with allowing a disarm action. It's just not a *parry*, and you don't get it for free. Use Full Dodge, problem solved.

It's no kind of argument to say, 'otherwise, melee sucks'. … Duh. Melee does suck. Stab the guy before he shoots you.
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 16 2010, 11:17 AM) *
It's no kind of argument to say, 'otherwise, melee sucks'. … Duh. Melee does suck. Stab the guy before he shoots you.


Indiana Jones in "Raiders". The scene where there's a guy just swinging around his sword and Indy pulls out his gun and shoots him.

If I recall correctly, according to some documentary or something that scene was supposed to have a big long fight where Indy was using his whip to defeat the swordsman, until one of the writer's pointed out that Indy could just shoot the guy instead...
Dumori
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 16 2010, 10:15 AM) *
Actually its -1 to his dicepool as he also gets the +2 point-blank modifier

You DON'T get point blank when in melee. So it's more a -5 mod.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Mr. Mage @ Jun 16 2010, 04:35 PM) *
Indiana Jones in "Raiders". The scene where there's a guy just swinging around his sword and Indy pulls out his gun and shoots him.

If I recall correctly, according to some documentary or something that scene was supposed to have a big long fight where Indy was using his whip to defeat the swordsman, until one of the writer's pointed out that Indy could just shoot the guy instead...


It was Ford himself who suggested it, suffering from dysentary at the time.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 16 2010, 04:15 AM) *
Actually its -1 to his dicepool as he also gets the +2 point-blank modifier


Thats not quite right:)
You get the Point Blank Bonus only if you're NOT in Melee.Once you enter Melee
and so fights actively than it's -3 DP

he who dances in Melee
Medicineman
LurkerOutThere
I don't want melee to be superior or frankly even equal to gunplay other then what is dictated by rule of cool, but if your a gun fighter and you allow your enemy to close with you you kind of deserve what comes next.
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jun 16 2010, 11:41 AM) *
It was Ford himself who suggested it, suffering from dysentary at the time.


Ah...was pretty sure someone mentioned it...assumed it would be a writer, but Ford mentioning it makes sense.
WarpedAzz
QUOTE (Dumori @ Jun 16 2010, 03:39 PM) *
You DON'T get point blank when in melee. So it's more a -5 mod.


-5?
The 20th anniversary edition says
"A target within one meter can be difficult to miss; apply a +2 dice pool modifier to the attack. Note that this may be offset by the Attacker in melée combat modifier.

Offset definitely reads to me that they are both appropriate.
LurkerOutThere
The way I always heard the story is Ford pulled his gun on a lark, being hot and sweaty and suffering from the above mentioned dysentary, and the stunt guy playing the swordsman rolled with it and Speilberg liked the reaction so much he just went with it.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jun 16 2010, 03:59 PM) *
The way I always heard the story is Ford pulled his gun on a lark, being hot and sweaty and suffering from the above mentioned dysentary, and the stunt guy playing the swordsman rolled with it and Speilberg liked the reaction so much he just went with it.


It was a gag take, yar. And to keep 'sort of' on topic, how much reach would the whip have had versus the scimitar? wobble.gif
sabs
QUOTE (Mr. Mage @ Jun 16 2010, 04:35 PM) *
Indiana Jones in "Raiders". The scene where there's a guy just swinging around his sword and Indy pulls out his gun and shoots him.

If I recall correctly, according to some documentary or something that scene was supposed to have a big long fight where Indy was using his whip to defeat the swordsman, until one of the writer's pointed out that Indy could just shoot the guy instead...


Sure but that guy was nowhere NEAR melee range.

The ideal range for handguns is close, but not too close.
If you're in Melee range with a hand gun, you've got issues. But I would allow either full dodge (but let the player use a martial art skill for dodge) OR I'd allow the player to do an opposed intuition+melee vs intuition+firearm skill. If melee wins he can disarm, or do damage, if shooter wins, he gets a free shot that doesnt' cost him IP.


Dakka Dakka
Why Intuition and not Reaction?

I think I remember reading some study about knife vs. gun fights that if the pistol is holstered the gun usually wins if the knifefighter is 7m or more away. With a drawn sidearm the danger zone is smaller, but I don't remember how much.
Yerameyahu
I really think just allowing a disarm action to be taken is wholly adequate to the situation. As I understand it, the thread was originally asking about giving a *free* parry (or even disarm) to someone defending against being shot.
Mr. Mage
QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 16 2010, 12:02 PM) *
Sure but that guy was nowhere NEAR melee range.


Yea...well...the way something looks in RL or on screen doesn't necessarily translate perfectly to a PnP game....but hopefully you get why I thought it was relevant to this thread.
sabs
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jun 16 2010, 05:18 PM) *
Why Intuition and not Reaction?

I think I remember reading some study about knife vs. gun fights that if the pistol is holstered the gun usually wins if the knifefighter is 7m or more away. With a drawn sidearm the danger zone is smaller, but I don't remember how much.


Reaction would work too. My thinking for intuition is because it's almost impossible to react fast enough to actually hit someone at point blank range who is actively parrying, unless you're actually just shooting them. If you walk up to them and start shooting, that's probably reaction. But if you walk up to them and hold the gun at point blank range, then it's almost impossible to get the shot off before the person moves.

I would require full dodge until the person got to 1m > range. After that I'd allow opposed roles. Reaction + skill would work just as well.


7M is not melee range though
1M or less is melee range.
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