A use for Adrenalins Pump 3 Options

[IKerensky]

One of my players choose Mysterious Implant 25 pts and Wanted 10 pts.

He is a decker/Face.

So I decided he had a stach of data/precious thingies implanted but that the operation doesn't go so well and he suffer from an Adrenalins Pump Syndroma, the stach is applying pressure and stock adrenalins that is released when he is in emotionnal state.

"DECKER SMASH!"

Of course he have absolutely no control wathever on it.

[Deadmannumberone]

So the only good use for the adrenal pump is as punishment.

[svenftw]

I don't understand all of the adrenaline pump hate. Sure, numbers-wise it doesn't always make sense, but does everybody build their character based on that? How fun is it to play a character with no weaknesses, where all bases are covered, where nothing can go sideways?

I think it's an awesome piece of gear that could make for some dynamic combat and roleplaying.

Yeah, there's a downside. Sometimes even a big one. So?

[Doc Chase]

I don't understand all of the adrenaline pump hate. Sure, numbers-wise it doesn't always make sense, but does everybody build their character based on that? How fun is it to play a character with no weaknesses, where all bases are covered, where nothing can go sideways?

I think it's an awesome piece of gear that could make for some dynamic combat and roleplaying.

Yeah, there's a downside. Sometimes even a big one. So?

I look at it as Chekov's Implant -if a player ever installs one, I'm going to make sure he/she gets to use it. I could really see it as an 'amg my edge' equalizer.

Thinking on it, I might make a few crazies with them to throw at my next team to see how they cope.

[Jhaiisiin]

I don't understand all of the adrenaline pump hate. Sure, numbers-wise it doesn't always make sense, but does everybody build their character based on that? How fun is it to play a character with no weaknesses, where all bases are covered, where nothing can go sideways?

I think it's an awesome piece of gear that could make for some dynamic combat and roleplaying.

Yeah, there's a downside. Sometimes even a big one. So?

A significant portion of DS posters are *very* numbers focused. Characters with weaknesses or ones that are not fully optimized are looked down upon and I've seen a number of posters refer to people who like playing those kind of characters with various negative remarks.

It's kind of upsetting, and it results in a lot of cookie-cutter builds here. You post X character idea, and 5 people point out the lack of optimization, and without fail you end up looking almost exactly like every other similar character idea from the past.

*looks around*
Crap, where did this soapbox come from?

[Doc Chase]

A significant portion of DS posters are *very* numbers focused. Characters with weaknesses or ones that are not fully optimized are looked down upon and I've seen a number of posters refer to people who like playing those kind of characters with various negative remarks.

It's kind of upsetting, and it results in a lot of cookie-cutter builds here. You post X character idea, and 5 people point out the lack of optimization, and without fail you end up looking almost exactly like every other similar character idea from the past.

*looks around*
Crap, where did this soapbox come from?

*looks at the box*

Johnson & Johnson, looks like.

[svenftw]

A significant portion of DS posters are *very* numbers focused. Characters with weaknesses or ones that are not fully optimized are looked down upon and I've seen a number of posters refer to people who like playing those kind of characters with various negative remarks.

It's kind of upsetting, and it results in a lot of cookie-cutter builds here. You post X character idea, and 5 people point out the lack of optimization, and without fail you end up looking almost exactly like every other similar character idea from the past.

*looks around*
Crap, where did this soapbox come from?

I hope they have fun playing like that. In my opinion that style of play misses the whole point. Why not just play Ikari Warriors?

[Jhaiisiin]

Everyone's version of fun is different.

In my case, I prefer characters with glaring flaws that either develop during play or start at chargen that force me to roleplay them out. I *LIKE* having to leave what I know and delve into how someone not me would deal with something I don't have. I *don't* like playing a character that can walk over all opposition without much issue. It gets very boring, very quickly for me.

In contrast to that, one of the players in my gaming group absolutely loves playing the Penultimate Bad Ass character. If he's not kicking ass and taking names, he's not happy. If he's not the biggest mofo this side of Cthuluverse, he's not happy. If he builds a character like this, and it doesn't work out because of dice rolls, or creative play on the part of his opposition, he gets quite upset.

Is he wrong or am I? Neither. Everyone has a different definition of fun. Understandably, my favorite games are oWoD, and his are Paladium.

[LurkerOutThere]

A significant portion of DS posters are *very* numbers focused. Characters with weaknesses or ones that are not fully optimized are looked down upon and I've seen a number of posters refer to people who like playing those kind of characters with various negative remarks.

It's kind of upsetting, and it results in a lot of cookie-cutter builds here. You post X character idea, and 5 people point out the lack of optimization, and without fail you end up looking almost exactly like every other similar character idea from the past.

*looks around*
Crap, where did this soapbox come from?

Allow me to pose a counter thought to you. Is it wrong to play a character who knows their strengths and weaknesses? Who given a choice between roughly equivalent things chooses the option that is more reliable? So that they don't have to fight both the rough world of the shadows plus their gear? Which is essentially what adrenal pump puts you in the position of doing. If you want to build a character whose based on having a inferior piece of ware with a serious and life threatening drawback you are perfectly valid for doing so. Me I prefer to play people who only have to worry about the outside world and it's challenges.

[Buio]

Allow me to pose a counter thought to you. Is it wrong to play a character who knows their strengths and weaknesses? Who given a choice between roughly equivalent things chooses the option that is more reliable?

That isn't the same thing as always choosing the games technically best options all the time. Power play is fine in my opinion, but variety is even better.

[Stahlseele]

I don't understand all of the adrenaline pump hate. Sure, numbers-wise it doesn't always make sense, but does everybody build their character based on that? How fun is it to play a character with no weaknesses, where all bases are covered, where nothing can go sideways?

I think it's an awesome piece of gear that could make for some dynamic combat and roleplaying.

Yeah, there's a downside. Sometimes even a big one. So?

Because technically, the optimizing min/maxing is a part of life in the augmented world of shadowrun . .
Would you implant yourself with something that's probably basically only one use and pretty likely to at least knock you out completely maybe before the fight has ended?
And something that can and probably will kill you if you have bad luck? something that's completely prone to go off without warning in about any situation . . including sex.
Even if you can get the same kind of benefits without the problems under more control on a constant basis?

[SkepticInc]

What's the problem with Adrenal Pumps? You can keep them from going off by using a moodchip (SR4 250). Stun damage at the end still sucks I guess.

[Thanee]

I don't understand all of the adrenaline pump hate. Sure, numbers-wise it doesn't always make sense, but does everybody build their character based on that? How fun is it to play a character with no weaknesses, where all bases are covered, where nothing can go sideways?

Well, it's certainly more fun than being dead, so to say. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I kinda like the Adrenaline Pump, it's just a bit too harsh, since you have no way to soak that Drain down.

Adding that in as a house rule (Body+Will to lower the Drain) makes it a lot more useable.

Another big problem is the augmented attribute maximum limit, which you easily reach with permanent ware, like Muscle Augmentation/Toner and the likes. The Adrenaline Pump would be a lot more attractive, if it would go beyond those limits.

Bye
Thanee

[Jhaiisiin]

Allow me to pose a counter thought to you. Is it wrong to play a character who knows their strengths and weaknesses? Who given a choice between roughly equivalent things chooses the option that is more reliable? So that they don't have to fight both the rough world of the shadows plus their gear? Which is essentially what adrenal pump puts you in the position of doing. If you want to build a character whose based on having a inferior piece of ware with a serious and life threatening drawback you are perfectly valid for doing so. Me I prefer to play people who only have to worry about the outside world and it's challenges.

You'll note I already specifically pointed out that everyone views fun differently and no one is wrong in that regard.

Sure, having a person who knows their strengths and weaknesses and playing to that is a good thing. Often I see character tweaks on this forum that do everything they can to eliminate any and all weaknesses in the characters. It's one thing to play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses. I do that on all my characters. It's something else entirely to min/max a character so highly that they overrun their opposition without issue and can't effectively be challenged within reason.

That said, I reiterrate: Neither is wrong. Play what is fun to you.

I don't understand the powergaming mentality, and my friend who is a powergamer to the core doesn't understand playing a "real" person with highs and lows. It's a paradigm thing, and no one is wrong because of their choice or point of view.

[MikeKozar]

I hope they have fun playing like that. In my opinion that style of play misses the whole point. Why not just play Ikari Warriors?

Everyone's version of fun is different.

...

Is he wrong or am I? Neither. Everyone has a different definition of fun. Understandably, my favorite games are oWoD, and his are Paladium.

This was brought up at my gaming table, and somebody managed to rub some Science on the problem. Check this out:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gami...RPGPlayers.html

According to this article, WOTC did a survey of gamers to determine what sort of gaming experience they preferred. Now, I've heard this "different kinds of gamers" thing before, but this is the first time anybody has claimed to have actually done some research to back up their theories.

For the link-shy, it claims roughly equal distributions of Power-Gamers, Thinkers, Storytellers, and Character Actors, with approximately 12% falling into the middle. This was pretty surprising to me; like many people, I assumed that my style of gaming was both the only correct way to do it, and the most popular choice.

Many threads on Dumpshock are driven by the group the article calls Thinkers; gamers who enjoy strategic planning and combat, and consider the rules to be a puzzle with an optimal solution. I can understand how someone who sees the game this way would be resistant to houserules and attempts to balance the power of the game - if "winning" is contingent upon an understanding of the rules, then making the rules a moving target is kind of a dick move.

The problem is that different groups have different definitions of "winning" - optimal character builds, glorious victory on the battlefield, an epic plot and story, or just the chance to crack your buddies up with a goofy accent. In a lot of ways, we're not all playing the same game, and that's why some players seem so wrongheaded about things. At the gaming table, you can always sit down with your players and find out what sort of game they like best - if you get everyone on the same page, then you get fun instead of friction.

Unfortunately, on Dumpshock, we've pretty much got to learn to live with each other. Understanding where the other guys are coming from helps, though.

[Jhaiisiin]

Thanks for that link there, Mike. I wish we could get access to that survey. It'd be interesting to see where I really fall.

[Ol' Scratch]

Game balance doesn't exist solely to combat overpoweredness. Underpowered things are just as broken as overpowered things are. And the Adrenaline Pump is very much a broken thing.

That said, there's a difference between building flawed characters and building characters with broken rules. Personally, I love flawed characters and practically every single one I create has some significant ones to the point where I've had several GMs just look at me oddly for some of the negative traits I given them. For example, my obscenely unlucky character with Edge 6 but also Gremlins 4 and Bad Luck (and yes, we rarely adhere to the mystifying 35 point limitation).

Broken rules don't make for better characters just by virtue of using broken rules. Not by a long shot. In regards to the Adrenaline Pump, it's unpredictable, damages you, is subpar to practically any other option, and has grossly inflated costs in both nuyen and Essence on top of a wildly inappropriate Availability rating. On top of that, you have to burn even more resources just to have a shot at controlling the thing at all. Rules don't get broken much worse than that. It's a wretchedly designed character option, which is why it "gets so much hate." Not because people optimize, but because it's a piece of shit implant.

[Jhaiisiin]

Not just this game but also in oWOD games, we never go by the limitation on negative qualities. You only get credit for the first 35 points (in SR, for instance) but you can take as many qualities as you want. Screw yourself as hard as you want, we don't care. After a point though, you don't get points for being a walking catastrophe.

[Dumori]

I some time shift a few qualitys in to new catgorys that are exempt from the 35BP limit. On both sides any posative over 35 bp cost x2 that and requires GM permision. The special qualities and such tend to be exempt.

[Caelwyn]

Thanks for that link there, Mike. I wish we could get access to that survey. It'd be interesting to see where I really fall.

Closest I could find with my Google Fu:

http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/do+you+liketo+...r-type-are-you/

I got Storyteller. I know its not the same as the "official" survey but its still kind of cool.

[Yerameyahu]

Is there an SR4A page reference for using a moodchip to stop the Adrenal Pump from activating? Not that it matters much, because you'll still take the unresisted stun from a duration that can't be ended prematurely. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Deadmannumberone]

Closest I could find with my Google Fu:

http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/do+you+liketo+...r-type-are-you/

I got Storyteller. I know its not the same as the "official" survey but its still kind of cool.

It seems your link-fu is weak.

RPG Player Quiz

[Traul]

That isn't the same thing as always choosing the games technically best options all the time.

In a futuristic setting, it is. In a world where there are expert systems for everything, one can assume that the characters know the game rules. They are of course not expressed as dice, but every single probability must have been studied by one corp or another. So when somebody decides to spend a significant part of Essence and Nuyen on ware, he should try to get the most bang for his buck, and he has access to all the necesary knowledge to do so.

[Dumori]

Storyteller
80%
Tactician
65%
Character Player
60%
Specialist
50%
Power Gamer
35%
Casual Gamer
35%
Weekend Warrior
30%

Knid o' what I guessed. Though seemingly a bit low on the power-game front.

[Ol' Scratch]

Heh, neat quiz. My results were Storyteller 100%, Character Player 95%, Specialist 60%, Tactician 55%, Casual Gamer 35%, Weekend Warrio 30%, Power Gamer 30%. I feel the same way for the most part, but I'd image people would say I'm a bit more of a power gamer than that simply by virtue of how involved I get in the character creation process. Most of my characters tend to inadvertently be on the higher end of the power range; though I guess "Specialist" covers that angle suitably.

Anyway, my last point still remains. Game balance works both ways. It's not only there to stop players from having characters that are too powerful, but to keep them from having overly weak ones, too. And that is largely achieved by having balanced rules, which Shadowrun (like most games) isn't exactly renowned for. But by no means does that make the Adrenaline Pump a balanced character option. If you took away some of the negatives, particularly the complete reliance on randomness (by letting the player trigger it at will in addition to it triggering on its own) and definitely the damage dealing, it would be a competitive option. As it stands, it simply eats up your Essence and starting resources for a negligible gain. And based upon a few comments in the other thread discussing it, there's GMs out there that feel obliged to make sure it's even more of a broken option by emphasizing its negatives.