One of my players choose Mysterious Implant 25 pts and Wanted 10 pts.

He is a decker/Face.

So I decided he had a stach of data/precious thingies implanted but that the operation doesn't go so well and he suffer from an Adrenalins Pump Syndroma, the stach is applying pressure and stock adrenalins that is released when he is in emotionnal state.

"DECKER SMASH!"

Of course he have absolutely no control wathever on it.

So the only good use for the adrenal pump is as punishment.

I don't understand all of the adrenaline pump hate. Sure, numbers-wise it doesn't always make sense, but does everybody build their character based on that? How fun is it to play a character with no weaknesses, where all bases are covered, where nothing can go sideways?

I think it's an awesome piece of gear that could make for some dynamic combat and roleplaying.

Yeah, there's a downside. Sometimes even a big one. So?

I look at it as Chekov's Implant -if a player ever installs one, I'm going to make sure he/she gets to use it. I could really see it as an 'amg my edge' equalizer.

Thinking on it, I might make a few crazies with them to throw at my next team to see how they cope.

A significant portion of DS posters are *very* numbers focused. Characters with weaknesses or ones that are not fully optimized are looked down upon and I've seen a number of posters refer to people who like playing those kind of characters with various negative remarks.

It's kind of upsetting, and it results in a lot of cookie-cutter builds here. You post X character idea, and 5 people point out the lack of optimization, and without fail you end up looking almost exactly like every other similar character idea from the past.

*looks around*
Crap, where did this soapbox come from?

*looks at the box*

Johnson & Johnson, looks like.

I hope they have fun playing like that. In my opinion that style of play misses the whole point. Why not just play Ikari Warriors?

Everyone's version of fun is different.

In my case, I prefer characters with glaring flaws that either develop during play or start at chargen that force me to roleplay them out. I *LIKE* having to leave what I know and delve into how someone not me would deal with something I don't have. I *don't* like playing a character that can walk over all opposition without much issue. It gets very boring, very quickly for me.

In contrast to that, one of the players in my gaming group absolutely loves playing the Penultimate Bad Ass character. If he's not kicking ass and taking names, he's not happy. If he's not the biggest mofo this side of Cthuluverse, he's not happy. If he builds a character like this, and it doesn't work out because of dice rolls, or creative play on the part of his opposition, he gets quite upset.

Is he wrong or am I? Neither. Everyone has a different definition of fun. Understandably, my favorite games are oWoD, and his are Paladium.

Allow me to pose a counter thought to you. Is it wrong to play a character who knows their strengths and weaknesses? Who given a choice between roughly equivalent things chooses the option that is more reliable? So that they don't have to fight both the rough world of the shadows plus their gear? Which is essentially what adrenal pump puts you in the position of doing. If you want to build a character whose based on having a inferior piece of ware with a serious and life threatening drawback you are perfectly valid for doing so. Me I prefer to play people who only have to worry about the outside world and it's challenges.

That isn't the same thing as always choosing the games technically best options all the time. Power play is fine in my opinion, but variety is even better.

Because technically, the optimizing min/maxing is a part of life in the augmented world of shadowrun . .
Would you implant yourself with something that's probably basically only one use and pretty likely to at least knock you out completely maybe before the fight has ended?
And something that can and probably will kill you if you have bad luck? something that's completely prone to go off without warning in about any situation . . including sex.
Even if you can get the same kind of benefits without the problems under more control on a constant basis?

What's the problem with Adrenal Pumps? You can keep them from going off by using a moodchip (SR4 250). Stun damage at the end still sucks I guess.

Well, it's certainly more fun than being dead, so to say.

But I kinda like the Adrenaline Pump, it's just a bit too harsh, since you have no way to soak that Drain down.

Adding that in as a house rule (Body+Will to lower the Drain) makes it a lot more useable.

Another big problem is the augmented attribute maximum limit, which you easily reach with permanent ware, like Muscle Augmentation/Toner and the likes. The Adrenaline Pump would be a lot more attractive, if it would go beyond those limits.

Bye
Thanee

You'll note I already specifically pointed out that everyone views fun differently and no one is wrong in that regard.

Sure, having a person who knows their strengths and weaknesses and playing to that is a good thing. Often I see character tweaks on this forum that do everything they can to eliminate any and all weaknesses in the characters. It's one thing to play to your strengths and avoid your weaknesses. I do that on all my characters. It's something else entirely to min/max a character so highly that they overrun their opposition without issue and can't effectively be challenged within reason.

That said, I reiterrate: Neither is wrong. Play what is fun to you.

I don't understand the powergaming mentality, and my friend who is a powergamer to the core doesn't understand playing a "real" person with highs and lows. It's a paradigm thing, and no one is wrong because of their choice or point of view.

This was brought up at my gaming table, and somebody managed to rub some Science on the problem. Check this out:

http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gami...RPGPlayers.html

According to this article, WOTC did a survey of gamers to determine what sort of gaming experience they preferred. Now, I've heard this "different kinds of gamers" thing before, but this is the first time anybody has claimed to have actually done some research to back up their theories.

For the link-shy, it claims roughly equal distributions of Power-Gamers, Thinkers, Storytellers, and Character Actors, with approximately 12% falling into the middle. This was pretty surprising to me; like many people, I assumed that my style of gaming was both the only correct way to do it, and the most popular choice.

Many threads on Dumpshock are driven by the group the article calls Thinkers; gamers who enjoy strategic planning and combat, and consider the rules to be a puzzle with an optimal solution. I can understand how someone who sees the game this way would be resistant to houserules and attempts to balance the power of the game - if "winning" is contingent upon an understanding of the rules, then making the rules a moving target is kind of a dick move.

The problem is that different groups have different definitions of "winning" - optimal character builds, glorious victory on the battlefield, an epic plot and story, or just the chance to crack your buddies up with a goofy accent. In a lot of ways, we're not all playing the same game, and that's why some players seem so wrongheaded about things. At the gaming table, you can always sit down with your players and find out what sort of game they like best - if you get everyone on the same page, then you get fun instead of friction.

Unfortunately, on Dumpshock, we've pretty much got to learn to live with each other. Understanding where the other guys are coming from helps, though.

Thanks for that link there, Mike. I wish we could get access to that survey. It'd be interesting to see where I really fall.

Game balance doesn't exist solely to combat overpoweredness. Underpowered things are just as broken as overpowered things are. And the Adrenaline Pump is very much a broken thing.

That said, there's a difference between building flawed characters and building characters with broken rules. Personally, I love flawed characters and practically every single one I create has some significant ones to the point where I've had several GMs just look at me oddly for some of the negative traits I given them. For example, my obscenely unlucky character with Edge 6 but also Gremlins 4 and Bad Luck (and yes, we rarely adhere to the mystifying 35 point limitation).

Broken rules don't make for better characters just by virtue of using broken rules. Not by a long shot. In regards to the Adrenaline Pump, it's unpredictable, damages you, is subpar to practically any other option, and has grossly inflated costs in both nuyen and Essence on top of a wildly inappropriate Availability rating. On top of that, you have to burn even more resources just to have a shot at controlling the thing at all. Rules don't get broken much worse than that. It's a wretchedly designed character option, which is why it "gets so much hate." Not because people optimize, but because it's a piece of shit implant.

Not just this game but also in oWOD games, we never go by the limitation on negative qualities. You only get credit for the first 35 points (in SR, for instance) but you can take as many qualities as you want. Screw yourself as hard as you want, we don't care. After a point though, you don't get points for being a walking catastrophe.

I some time shift a few qualitys in to new catgorys that are exempt from the 35BP limit. On both sides any posative over 35 bp cost x2 that and requires GM permision. The special qualities and such tend to be exempt.

Closest I could find with my Google Fu:

http://quizfarm.com/quizzes/do+you+liketo+...r-type-are-you/

I got Storyteller. I know its not the same as the "official" survey but its still kind of cool.

Is there an SR4A page reference for using a moodchip to stop the Adrenal Pump from activating? Not that it matters much, because you'll still take the unresisted stun from a duration that can't be ended prematurely.

It seems your link-fu is weak.

RPG Player Quiz

In a futuristic setting, it is. In a world where there are expert systems for everything, one can assume that the characters know the game rules. They are of course not expressed as dice, but every single probability must have been studied by one corp or another. So when somebody decides to spend a significant part of Essence and Nuyen on ware, he should try to get the most bang for his buck, and he has access to all the necesary knowledge to do so.

Storyteller
80%
Tactician
65%
Character Player
60%
Specialist
50%
Power Gamer
35%
Casual Gamer
35%
Weekend Warrior
30%

Knid o' what I guessed. Though seemingly a bit low on the power-game front.

Heh, neat quiz. My results were Storyteller 100%, Character Player 95%, Specialist 60%, Tactician 55%, Casual Gamer 35%, Weekend Warrio 30%, Power Gamer 30%. I feel the same way for the most part, but I'd image people would say I'm a bit more of a power gamer than that simply by virtue of how involved I get in the character creation process. Most of my characters tend to inadvertently be on the higher end of the power range; though I guess "Specialist" covers that angle suitably.

Anyway, my last point still remains. Game balance works both ways. It's not only there to stop players from having characters that are too powerful, but to keep them from having overly weak ones, too. And that is largely achieved by having balanced rules, which Shadowrun (like most games) isn't exactly renowned for. But by no means does that make the Adrenaline Pump a balanced character option. If you took away some of the negatives, particularly the complete reliance on randomness (by letting the player trigger it at will in addition to it triggering on its own) and definitely the damage dealing, it would be a competitive option. As it stands, it simply eats up your Essence and starting resources for a negligible gain. And based upon a few comments in the other thread discussing it, there's GMs out there that feel obliged to make sure it's even more of a broken option by emphasizing its negatives.

wait, that does not sound right O.o
i actually had a tie breaker between weekend warrior and story teller o.O
And why the hell is Storyteller way up there?
And Character Player? That should be Casual Gamer and Specialist!
And why is Power Gamer way down there? I get accused of being just that about every single gaming session . . and usually, i am proud of that too!

That oft cited Stormwind Fallacy once again shows up(paraphrased): Just because you play a well rounded or optimized character doesn't mean your not roleplaying. Just because your roleplaying doesn't mean you need to play a gimp.

You *can* trigger it at will. You just have to worry about it triggering by accident, as well, and there's no way to turn it off in the standard rules (borrow the MAO rules from SR3?).

One day I will play a GIMP! B&E and escape artist spec'd adept. Leather "jacket" and full FFBA and a hobby of tieing up incapacitated opposition. Just was that joke needs that pun.

Starts stating.

wait, i thought the stormwind fallacy was essentially that if you have to fix something, it was clearly broken in the first place and therefore the argument that it can be fixed is not a valid argument to show that something is not broken.

am i getting my roleplaying fallacies crossed?

i call it the MMORPG curse, as the mentality seems to be all over the place there. Each time there is a game change, there is a uproar about nerf vs their ultra-optimized build that makes use of every little corner case they could find to maximize damage output. Heck, some will tell you to wipe and restart a character if you put a single point in a "useless" skill.

MMO curse is a misnomer, I think. MMOs do have that sort of mindset at times, but this sort of thing has existed well before even MUDs were popular. I think the issue is a bit more fundamental: "Welcome to the Shadows," and other PBP games aside, we're not playing the game here, but rather we're discussing the metagame, and since we're all disparate posters, we're discussing a metagame that's highly, highly based on the RAW (and thus numbers) since that's really the only thing on which we can quickly develop a consensus.

Naturally, this tends to skew the conversation somewhat, especially when someone rolls in asking for build advice. For example, I couldn't possibly give someone here advice about what kind of character will fit in from a roleplaying perspective at their table without a helluva lot more information than I'm likely to get from your standard "Help me build X post." Their table is a local metagame that I do not have access to. I can't really tell them whether Shiva Arms is the sort of thing that'll enrich their game experience-- I don't know them well enough to make that judgement. It may very well give them less roleplaying fun than spending an equivalent amount of BP on NERPS oriented Knowledge skills. But I can tell them that Shiva Arms aren't really good for much of anything as far as dice pools are concerned and be reasonably sure that it's an accurate statement. And lo, the conversation turns to "power gaming," for lack of anything better to do.

Conceptually it is awesome. The negatives are so massive in the level 2 and 3 versions that it does not help roleplaying it hinders it unless falling over dead basically at random is good roelplaying.

I just don't think that it enhances the "reality" of a character to have him make horrible equipment choices..

But I'm not one to rag on someone for wanting to play a wacky concept, like a character with a random number generator attached to a cranial bomb that will detonate if it ever hits 18. Oh wait, we were talking about the Rating 3 Adrenal Pump, weren't we. My bad.

Anyway, have you ever sat in the same room with someone while they play a video game that you know and love, and they're just terrible at it? Like, they keep making the same mistakes over and over, getting frustrated, and you can't even talk to them anymore about it? They may even be having a great time slamming into that wall, over and over again, but to you, it feels like being slowly suffocated in a river of tar. You don't want to feel this way. It's unpleasant to feel this way, but you do. You can't help it. It's like their casual approach is an insult to the time and effort you've put in to becoming good at something.

I'm not saying that's you - that you don't know what you're doing if you make character-driven choices. Not at all. It's just that same feeling which drives me toward making a sleek character. I feel that way inside every time I'm making a character and I start getting frivolous (Wild Technomancer? Why wouldn't I want to spend my first 300 karma making this concept viable? Who needs cyber anyway?) or leaving bits out (well, I could go for used cyber since it has no effect on limb capacity, but getting just as much for half the price se- ...I can't even finish that thought. It's repulsive to me. Every time I try, I say to myself "You can do better than this!" "Why are you pissing around? Get the damn shinguards! I don't care why a mage would be wearing shinguards! Maybe he's afraid of rogue Leprechauns?! Buy it already!" and I just feel that slow crush until I end up with soccermage the magnificent, because, fuck it. I want the Impact armor. I NEED IT.

If you don't understand that compulsion, you should feel blessed by the Tao. I... I'm not there. I still can't reach roleplay zen.

Okay, since that's my current character concept:

Daniel Soaring-Eagle was a fairly competent Big Game Hunter from the Cascade Ork tribe. He had done a number of contract jobs for clients from Seattle, either vermin control or paracritter recovery, and was pretty good at it. Although not a shaman, he still follows the Wolf Totem, and is very much a pack hunter - his family is very important to him.

He was working a contract to take down a big, valuable and rare paracritter, and had enlisted many of his family and friends to help bring it down. Just as they were ready to bag it, a Corp black-ops team comes in to recover it. The Cascades protest, and the Corp team opens fire without hesitation. Daniel catches a rocket blast, and takes enough damage to put him out of the fight. The Corp team leaves them for dead. His employer's DocWagon beacon gets the two of them rescued, and when Daniel awakens, a local charity with ties to the Neo-Anarchists has paid to have him reconstructed - with buggy, 20-year old Russian military surplus cyberlimbs. His arm and leg are chrome now, but they react slowly, the nerve connections are spotty, and they are huge and awkward. He hates them. His eye is worse - it actually glows red, like a bad movie villain, and whirrs and clicks when it tries to focus on something.

Daniel is *pissed*. He lost most of his family and friends, as well as most of his Essence, because some Corp bio-research team got lazy. He's got a vendetta against the corps, which is going to be a huge struggle considering he still hasn't identified *which* corp was running that black op. Until he has the resources to find out, he's going to try and find a way to make the money he needs by waging war on the Megacorps. He's driven by his anger, and is suffering from survivor's guilt - he's too screwed up to consider 'making the best of a bad situation' by getting better cyberware, or cloned limbs. He's going to take his huge, over-armored steel foot and kick some ass. If the cyberware was an upgrade, he wouldn't have as much of a reason for his barely-restrained fury, but every awkward sound and jerky glitch reminds him that there's somebody out there he owes a bullet to. ...and Daniel pays his debts.

Daniel is sub-optimal in a lot of ways. I don't think his story would work as well if he was a perfect Cyber Samurai. His flaws make him interesting to me.

I could see Daniel getting into a tussel with some people and losing, and that being the catalyst for him realizing that with all the buggy ware he has, sure it reminds him of his goal, but it's now holding him back from it as well. Start with the arm, then the leg, then if it's really an issue, the eye, but that might be able to stay. Mount the old ware on a wall in his home so every time he comes home, he sees and is reminded of why he's doing this. Better yet, when you go to the new arm and leg, make them modular at the shoulder/hip and get the old ware modded to be modular as well. Then when The Day comes that you're about to beat the tar out of the one responsible, you can swap back to the old ware to complete the circle

Interesting. I think most people would peg me as a power gamer, and its true that I go for the combat bad ass types. Reason being that they are typically the ones needed to move the story forwards. To me, there's nothing more annoying that a plot point you can't get past because you got your ass kicked (unless that in itself IS the plot point). That's not to say encounters should be easy- rather, that people should play characters that let them deal with conflicts decently, because otherwise the story hits roadblocks. (Yeah, I know, opposition scales to party capability. Its a catch 22, ain't it?)

Character Player
75%
Storyteller
65%
Specialist
55%
Tactician
55%
Casual Gamer
45%
Weekend Warrior
40%
Power Gamer
40%


I find this a li'l funny since I know how capable I am of blowing the doors off many campaigns via Magicians. Then again, I kinda weaned myself off of playing mages precisely because of that, so in a way the results make sense.

Because the survey assesses what you value, not how you achieve it. I had high ranks in storyteller and character (tiebreaker between the two) but like you, would typically be called a power gamer. That's because I typically want my character to live long enough and be powerful enough to see an actual story progress. Weaker characters don't accomplish as much story wise / character wise, unless you tailor the game to them.
There's probably also a large element of bias; people lie on surveys, and surveys are often poorly written, or have to few questions to make a meaningful assessment.

Yeah, there's times where you're really just using your min-maxing powers to take an oddball build from being mostly good as a doorstop to being being pretty playable. For example, neither drakes or the SURGE qualities Setae and Dynamic skin coloration are very good, but a SURGE'd Eastern Drake Infiltrator/Subdual Adept with those qualities can be quite playable without being anything you'd really consider a GM's nightmare. Besides, some color-changing dragon looking thingy suddenly flying from out of nowhere and constricting someone unconscious is just plain freaky.

I have a use for Adrenalin pump 3 mysterious ware on that PC you hate...

I dunno, Whipstitch. You'd have to be naked, after all.

Yeah, I was going to say...I don't think this survey weights power-gaming responses very high, or just doesn't have as many questions geared towards power-gaming. Its a pity we don't have the Wizards of the Coast survey.

An interesting point made in the original article was that even people who scored low on strategy in their poll were still much more strategic then the general population; it was only within the RPG community that they seemed unstrategic. Shades of blue, I think the term was.

Hooloovoo!

Yeah, but either way you're intimidating. You're either a big, naked troll grappler or a mini-dragon.

Snrk. Okay, yeah. At the very least, people don't want to be near you; hopefully they don't have guns, though.

Yeah, having used cyber can be a nasty choice, but I was specifically thinking about limb capacity items being used cyber, since you get the same effect from them for half the cost. There aren't many good reasons to get a new Orentation system or a new Nanohive when you can just get one used and drop it in a limb for no extra essence cost.

It's always been a case of "why pay retail?" for me. It may seem unfair to pay half as much as book for something you drop in a limb, but it's not unreasonable. Especially for an Augmentation Addict.

hunh..

here I thought I was giving everything 110%..

You know, I have found that everyone forgets that an adrenaline pump boosts your will, too. There's times when that is just priceless.

Oh yeah...

You Scored as Weekend Warrior
The Weekend Warrior is in the game to kick down doors and kill monsters. After a long day in the office or classroom, he wants his character to wade into the action—too much time spent on diplomacy, story arc, planning, or even character-building tends to bore him. He tends to prefer combat-ready, simple-to-create, simple-to-run characters, leaning toward fighter types or blaster magic-users. Optimizing the rules for an ideal character is secondary, so long as he gets to hit things. To the Weekend Warrior, the greatest reward in roleplaying is the exciting, action-packed battle. With apologies to Robin Laws.



Weekend Warrior
75%
Power Gamer
65%
Specialist
60%
Character Player
55%
Tactician
40%
Casual Gamer
35%
Storyteller
30%

You can see that for me it's all about the butt-kicking! Seriously, don't ever try and make me the face. It will never end well.

I belive myself to be a "thinker". I love to make plans for maximized efficiency. But I prefer doing that ingame. Sure, I like trying to come up with overpowered characters as well, but what can I do after that? Die so I can make another overpowered character? Not likely. Instead, I make and average or even underpowered character and then I optimize the strategy instead of the character. It's so much more fun that way.(For me at least)

Anyways, back on-topic. Why is the Adrenaline Pump such a bad choice? I know it's not sustainable and the damage is uncomfortable to say the least, but it does have advantages in essence/nuyen cost, doesn't it? (Muscle Toner + Muscle Argumentation = half nuyen cost and more than half essence cost, and gives half the stats but doesn't keep you conscious when you reach your maximum stun damage)