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> Suite Programing, dude., Rules on programing suites
Floyd
post Jun 28 2010, 07:46 PM
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Page 128, of Unwired, has program suites the player or gamemaster can buy and use. The upshot is that the suite is a slew of programs that, systematically, counts as a single program. Reduces system lag.

A player could group together programs to reduce their system lag effect, basically creating a player designed suite. But I could not find any game rulings that would allow a player to do that.

I thought of imposing an Extended Programming skill test with a threshold of the total rating of all programs in the suite added up, and an interval of 1 month. But I don't want to create a house rule without knowing the published rule, if there is one.

Please let me know if there is a published rule, and where it might be. Or if there is not, what possible game imbalance I may be creating with my house rule above.
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deek
post Jun 28 2010, 08:10 PM
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It says (same page) that you follow the rules for each component program, however all changes must be done together). So you have all the rules there, you just have to invest a lot of time to program a suite and none of it is operational until you get it all done. And, you'd have to patch it all at the same time as well.

So the balance is, you spend a lot of time maintaining these program suites.
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Hand-E-Food
post Jun 30 2010, 06:40 AM
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Additionally, if one program crashes or is infected, the entire suite suffers the same fate.
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sabs
post Jun 30 2010, 04:05 PM
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Although in RAW you don't have to patch self-programmed software.
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deek
post Jun 30 2010, 05:09 PM
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QUOTE (sabs @ Jun 30 2010, 12:05 PM) *
Although in RAW you don't have to patch self-programmed software.

I thought I read somewhere here a couple weeks ago that that was errata'd, so you do have to patch it...

If not, then one less disadvantage to a programming suite.
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sabs
post Jun 30 2010, 05:26 PM
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Not that I know of
But I haven't checked every errata.
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Doc Chase
post Jun 30 2010, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (deek @ Jun 30 2010, 06:09 PM) *
I thought I read somewhere here a couple weeks ago that that was errata'd, so you do have to patch it...

If not, then one less disadvantage to a programming suite.


I believe that was the other way around. Otherwise it's more cost effective to buy pirated software every month rather than drop 6 weeks and 3k to make a Rating 6 program.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 30 2010, 05:40 PM
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The errata only says the self-coded software does not degrade *due to planned obsolescence*, not that it does not degrade at all (due to actual obsolescence, etc.).
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sabs
post Jun 30 2010, 05:51 PM
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There are absolutely 0 rules for planned vs unplanned obsolescence.

So that leaves it wide open to who the hell knows.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 30 2010, 06:04 PM
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Exactly. Which is why you would assume they *do* degrade.
QUOTE
Unwired Errata v1: Software programmed by the hacker and Open Source programs never degrade in this fashion, but may require patch- ing to remain current at the gamemaster’s discretion.
The GM is explicitly free to tweak that, though. Standard degrade rate is 1/mo Hacking, 1/2mo Other; the GM could rule that self-coded degrades half as fast (1/2mo Hacking, 1/4mo Other).

I'm a lifelong minmaxer, and an enthusiastic SR 'hacker' player, and even I would blush to argue that I self-coded all my programs and now I'm set for life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 30 2010, 06:55 PM
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It takes a ridiculously long time to write your own programs though, even with a programming environment and a rush job. Do your games really feature that much downtime?
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Doc Chase
post Jun 30 2010, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 30 2010, 07:55 PM) *
It takes a ridiculously long time to write your own programs though, even with a programming environment and a rush job. Do your games really feature that much downtime?


Hey, snag a big score, lie low for the heat to die down...It could happen.
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 30 2010, 07:48 PM
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You only have to do it once, ever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Hell, pretend it happened during your pre-chargen. Downtime is infinite.
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Lanlaorn
post Jun 30 2010, 08:24 PM
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I don't know if I'd be able to get away with "I didn't pay for any of these programs at chargen because my character spent 5 years programming before the team met", lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Yerameyahu
post Jun 30 2010, 08:25 PM
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That's what I'm saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) You can't get away with, "I never have to update these", either.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2010, 01:17 AM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 30 2010, 01:24 PM) *
I don't know if I'd be able to get away with "I didn't pay for any of these programs at chargen because my character spent 5 years programming before the team met", lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


You would still pay for the Programs (it is still a resource after all, and you are not really "Buying" them), as Character Creation "Resources" are just there to place a limit on what you can purchase... using the hubris of "I coded them Myself" is really not all that bad... Honestly, I have found that with the existence of cracked software, it is a pittance to keep the programs SOTA, so it really is not all that big of a deal...

And programming Software is not all that hard to do either... with Programming Suites (Extra Dice), Programming Environments (1/2 Interval), and Rush Jobs (1/2 Interval, possible increased Risks), and even Edge Expenditures to Cut the Interval (1/2 Again), Programming a Hacking Program which usually has an Interval of 1 Month now has a possible ending interval of 3.5 Days... An Agent (3 Month Interval) becomes an Interval of 9 1/2 Days... Not so bad actually

And the Eratta in Unwired says that Self-Programmed programs MAY degrade at the GM's WHim... does not mean that it has to... you can always use the arrogance of continuous tweaking during down time to keep it SOTA and not have any real issues.

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Lanlaorn
post Jul 1 2010, 01:43 AM
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You can use Edge to halve an extended test interval?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2010, 01:44 AM
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QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 30 2010, 06:43 PM) *
You can use Edge to halve an extended test interval?


Indeed, as an optional rule I believe...
Page 75 of SR4A...

Keep the Faith
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 1 2010, 02:30 AM
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You would not pay for self-coded programs at character creation, if they're allowed. That doesn't make sense.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2010, 02:42 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 30 2010, 07:30 PM) *
You would not pay for self-coded programs at character creation, if they're allowed. That doesn't make sense.


Yes you would... Character creation gives reasons to have equipment. You do not actually purchase the equipment from a store; much of that equipment is represented by what you have been able to acquire over the time before the campaign starts... As such, it is a representation of the Value of the Equipment, not the cost of actually obtaining it...

As such, any programs you self coded would still have to be "Purchased/Acquired" before the game starts, which is what the "Cost" of the program represents.

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MortVent
post Jul 1 2010, 02:44 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 30 2010, 09:30 PM) *
You would not pay for self-coded programs at character creation, if they're allowed. That doesn't make sense.



It does

Items at creation are not all bought at a mall, some are items (foci for instance) that are made/programed by the character.

Others are items they stole or purchased on the black market.

A good example:
Mage A has a power focus, he bought it from his talismonger contact
Mage B has an identical focus, but she made it prior to the start of the game from telsma she gathered

Both pay the same nuyen cost and karma costs for the item, even though one technically made it for less by aquiring the raw materials and putting it together.

So if the GM allows it, all hackers can have self coded utilites but will have to pay the resource nuyen to account for effort and time put into to write them.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2010, 02:46 AM
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QUOTE (MortVent @ Jun 30 2010, 07:44 PM) *
It does

Items at creation are not all bought at a mall, some are items (foci for instance) that are made/programed by the character.

Others are items they stole or purchased on the black market.

A good example:
Mage A has a power focus, he bought it from his talismonger contact
Mage B has an identical focus, but she made it prior to the start of the game from telsma she gathered

Both pay the same nuyen cost and karma costs for the item, even though one technically made it for less by aquiring the raw materials and putting it together.

So if the GM allows it, all hackers can have self coded utilites but will have to pay the resource nuyen to account for effort and time put into to write them.



QFT... Indeed...

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Yerameyahu
post Jul 1 2010, 02:53 AM
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Nah. That's fine for your game. In mine, if you make something, you pay make prices, if it's possible within the availability.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jul 1 2010, 02:55 AM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 30 2010, 07:53 PM) *
Nah. That's fine for your game. In mine, if you make something, you pay make prices, if it's possible within the availability.


Always an interpretation... but that means that your craftsment will start out WAY more powerful than those who cannot create their own things, which is counter to the Character Creation Intent.

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Yerameyahu
post Jul 1 2010, 02:57 AM
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No, they invested in crafting skills, and it's hardly 'WAY' more powerful. In SR3, this was all different for pre-/post-chargen costs, but in SR4, everything is the same price whenever.
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