Page 128, of Unwired, has program suites the player or gamemaster can buy and use. The upshot is that the suite is a slew of programs that, systematically, counts as a single program. Reduces system lag.

A player could group together programs to reduce their system lag effect, basically creating a player designed suite. But I could not find any game rulings that would allow a player to do that.

I thought of imposing an Extended Programming skill test with a threshold of the total rating of all programs in the suite added up, and an interval of 1 month. But I don't want to create a house rule without knowing the published rule, if there is one.

Please let me know if there is a published rule, and where it might be. Or if there is not, what possible game imbalance I may be creating with my house rule above.

It says (same page) that you follow the rules for each component program, however all changes must be done together). So you have all the rules there, you just have to invest a lot of time to program a suite and none of it is operational until you get it all done. And, you'd have to patch it all at the same time as well.

So the balance is, you spend a lot of time maintaining these program suites.

Additionally, if one program crashes or is infected, the entire suite suffers the same fate.

Although in RAW you don't have to patch self-programmed software.

I thought I read somewhere here a couple weeks ago that that was errata'd, so you do have to patch it...

If not, then one less disadvantage to a programming suite.

Not that I know of
But I haven't checked every errata.

I believe that was the other way around. Otherwise it's more cost effective to buy pirated software every month rather than drop 6 weeks and 3k to make a Rating 6 program.

The errata only says the self-coded software does not degrade *due to planned obsolescence*, not that it does not degrade at all (due to actual obsolescence, etc.).

There are absolutely 0 rules for planned vs unplanned obsolescence.

So that leaves it wide open to who the hell knows.

Exactly. Which is why you would assume they *do* degrade.
The GM is explicitly free to tweak that, though. Standard degrade rate is 1/mo Hacking, 1/2mo Other; the GM could rule that self-coded degrades half as fast (1/2mo Hacking, 1/4mo Other).

I'm a lifelong minmaxer, and an enthusiastic SR 'hacker' player, and even I would blush to argue that I self-coded all my programs and now I'm set for life.

It takes a ridiculously long time to write your own programs though, even with a programming environment and a rush job. Do your games really feature that much downtime?

Hey, snag a big score, lie low for the heat to die down...It could happen.

You only have to do it once, ever. Hell, pretend it happened during your pre-chargen. Downtime is infinite.

I don't know if I'd be able to get away with "I didn't pay for any of these programs at chargen because my character spent 5 years programming before the team met", lol

That's what I'm saying. You can't get away with, "I never have to update these", either.

You would still pay for the Programs (it is still a resource after all, and you are not really "Buying" them), as Character Creation "Resources" are just there to place a limit on what you can purchase... using the hubris of "I coded them Myself" is really not all that bad... Honestly, I have found that with the existence of cracked software, it is a pittance to keep the programs SOTA, so it really is not all that big of a deal...

And programming Software is not all that hard to do either... with Programming Suites (Extra Dice), Programming Environments (1/2 Interval), and Rush Jobs (1/2 Interval, possible increased Risks), and even Edge Expenditures to Cut the Interval (1/2 Again), Programming a Hacking Program which usually has an Interval of 1 Month now has a possible ending interval of 3.5 Days... An Agent (3 Month Interval) becomes an Interval of 9 1/2 Days... Not so bad actually

And the Eratta in Unwired says that Self-Programmed programs MAY degrade at the GM's WHim... does not mean that it has to... you can always use the arrogance of continuous tweaking during down time to keep it SOTA and not have any real issues.

Keep the Faith

You can use Edge to halve an extended test interval?

Indeed, as an optional rule I believe...
Page 75 of SR4A...

Keep the Faith

You would not pay for self-coded programs at character creation, if they're allowed. That doesn't make sense.

Yes you would... Character creation gives reasons to have equipment. You do not actually purchase the equipment from a store; much of that equipment is represented by what you have been able to acquire over the time before the campaign starts... As such, it is a representation of the Value of the Equipment, not the cost of actually obtaining it...

As such, any programs you self coded would still have to be "Purchased/Acquired" before the game starts, which is what the "Cost" of the program represents.

Keep the Faith

It does

Items at creation are not all bought at a mall, some are items (foci for instance) that are made/programed by the character.

Others are items they stole or purchased on the black market.

A good example:
Mage A has a power focus, he bought it from his talismonger contact
Mage B has an identical focus, but she made it prior to the start of the game from telsma she gathered

Both pay the same nuyen cost and karma costs for the item, even though one technically made it for less by aquiring the raw materials and putting it together.

So if the GM allows it, all hackers can have self coded utilites but will have to pay the resource nuyen to account for effort and time put into to write them.

QFT... Indeed...

Keep the Faith

Nah. That's fine for your game. In mine, if you make something, you pay make prices, if it's possible within the availability.

Always an interpretation... but that means that your craftsment will start out WAY more powerful than those who cannot create their own things, which is counter to the Character Creation Intent.

Keep the Faith

No, they invested in crafting skills, and it's hardly 'WAY' more powerful. In SR3, this was all different for pre-/post-chargen costs, but in SR4, everything is the same price whenever.

Which is what they are using to balance at character generation in my opinion... after the play starts, then you may use the crafting rules to create your equipment (whatever)... Just because I have Chemistry at level 1 does not mean that I should be able to have large amounts of explosives at 1/10th the cost at play start (nor an insane amount of combat drugs for 1/10th the cost), etc. and the guy without it is forced to pay the Normal Costs. Once play starts, that is okay (because it will take up time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere), as it will happen in game, but not in Character Creation.

Keep the Faith

That's an exploit problem with Chemistry itself, not with the use of crafting skills. You shouldn't be able to do terribly much with rank 1 anyway, unless you also invested a fair bit in your Logic as well. I don't see it as abusive, and that's always subject to the GM saying, 'no, that's abusive' anyway.

I say that it would apply to anything, at least at character creation... it is all an Exploit... whether you are paying 1/2 or 1/10th the cost that another player is paying for his character, you are exploiting the rules unfairly. Which is why they provide costs to use at character creation... Notice that you do not use the modifiers for Black Market Goods when you purchase gear at character creation... I wonder why that is? Because you are not actually "Buying" the equipment that you have at character creation... it is just a simple mechanic to regulate the outlay of initial gear.

Keep the Faith

What Black Market mods? SR4 does not have Street Index. The positive and negative Street Cost mods are just situational, and they could easily go either way.

It's true that you're not 'actually buying' your gear, but it's essentially identical, minus the Avail rolls.

Those are the ones that I am talking about... IS it stolen? -20%... Counterfeit? -20%

Situational or not, If most of my gear was stolen equipment, by your logic, I should get a 20% discount at character creation, but that is not how it works unless you are using a houserule...

Keep the Faith

Right, but my point is that you don't use *either* positive or negative mods to avoid that issue. That's not the same thing as 'you can't craft anything'.

But I am not saying that you cannot craft anything, what I am saying is that you get no price break for doing so at character creation... this keeps it fair for everyone involved during Character Creation... After Play Starts, that all goes out the window...

Keep the Faith

If you don't get a price break, you didn't craft it.

Well remember to pay lifestyle costs for the time spent crafting prior to game start

In game, maybe... But I would say that that is not correct for Character Creation... The "Cost" of the Software in this case covers the months and/or years that you would have spent to Program (craft) all that software... and again, it keeps it fair for everyone. Where you get the break (assuming that you have software skills sufficient to actually program the software in the first place) is that you will not have to really worry that much about software degradation... while others without the skill will either have to pay for the Upgrades, Obtain a new cracked version of the Program, or purchase those programs legally (which has its own drawbacks)... seems like a great benefit to me...

Keep the Faith

See, no, because all software degrades, unless your GM rules that it doesn't, because the errata doesn't say, 'does not degrade at all'. See earlier arguments about why *that* is utterly abusive.

I am not arguing that it Can't Degrade, just that it is left to the GM's perrogatives. The easy fix for that in game is to simply state that you spend time whenever you get a chance making tweaks to the software to insure that it stays SOTA... OR your GM enforces some sort of Degradation to the Self-Programmed Software if he so desires... since there is no set in stone rule/rationale it is entirely the GM's call...

What I AM saying is that you should not get any Price Breaks at Character Generation just because you crafted the gear/equipment/software/guns yourself...

Keep the Faith

Nope, you should. But you've got your game, and I've got mine. 's cool.

Totally...

Keep the Faith

So, what yerameyahu is saying is...

5BP: Restricted gear.
30BP: Nanoforge.
2BP: Shop-making- Shop level facility.

Churn out Automotive Mechanic, Armorer, Chemistry shops before the game even starts.
Then start with all gear for no cost.

Not broken at all.

Sorry dude. Chargen costs are -meant- to ensure all charaters start on a level playng field. Letting a person who put got some neocortical nanites and one point in the mechanics groups start with a bunch of gear at a discount is unbalanced as fuck. Not to mention it blows the Money Limit/'you-can-only-start-with-so-much-stuff' rule completely out of the water.

It is a bit broken, but some people play that way... After all, it is their right to do so...

Keep the Faith

Nah, they'd never make it past the 'GM approves Restricted Gear' phase. See how easy?

Besides, you don't get gear for 'no cost' by any means. Fuck, as you say, is certainly more unbalanced than GM-scrutinized crafting.

If you're allowing people to roll stuff - like crafting tests - In Creation, then the face gets to roll Availability tests. And negotiation tests to get discounts. And -those- don't have optional rules to go with them.

Hell, anyone can burn an edge in character creation to make an availability test for an ares laser cannon.

How bout a used Firelance? Half of 400K is within the starting cash limit. (except, i think the default 'sell it used' modifer is 35% market value. Haha, even worse)

....

No. This is one instance where your habit of applying common sense to fictional future-fantasy escapism game mechanics is a very, very bad thing.

Now that i'm thinking about how to try to break Yerameyahu's silly houserule...

Negotiation tests through contacts to get you things at a discount - the 'friendship discount' opposed negotiation test shifts the price 10% per net hit either way.

A critical success is threshold+4 hits. Burning an edge buys you a critical hit. So all we need is ten net hits, which we can achieve very, very easily with a mild pornomancer build. Or, hell, even the right qualities, implants, and sensorware.

So the Finder's Fee for a contact getting something for you is Connection x 5%. Therefore, a connection 0, loyalty X contact has no finder's fee. (and would just use its base statblock that all Contacts have to do stuff, with no Connection bonus).
Next, we add Black Market Pipeline to that contact, which lets you 'always buy one type of merchandise', and 'confers a +3 dice pool modifier when negotiating to sell/fence goods through the Pipeline'.
Congrats, dude. If I ever play in one of your games, I'm starting with an almost completely free Eagle-C. I'm going to name it the Calrissian.

Nope. See above.

In any case, it's hardly 'my silly houserule' that you're strawman-ing. You're talking 100% about Availability and discounts, which overlaps precisely 0% with anything I've said. If it's anyone's silly houserule, it's yours.

Self coded programs cost time. While there is no requirement to pay for lifestyle from before the runners first game, if you're getting something for nothing game balance would probably indicate paying the lifestyle to have coded them is balanced.

It says the software doesn't degrade using the normal degradation rules and allows for a GM determined degradation if the GM wants to have it degrade.

(If you read the normal degradation rules it specifies normal degradation as planned obsolescence. That is the only non-optional mechanic for degradation.)

No, I don't believe that's the case. It does not say that *all* software degradation is planned obsolescence. It is one factor.

Well, what other kind of degredation is there?

Per unwired, hackers are allowed to research exploits to use on specific pieces of software - but that adds +2 dice when encountering it, with a small chance of it being patched out now and then - but thats not degredation.

Solar flares, Doppler Effect of Magnetism, static interference from plastic slide rules, etc.