Suite Programing, dude., Rules on programing suites Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, they invested in crafting skills, and it's hardly 'WAY' more powerful. In SR3, this was all different for pre-/post-chargen costs, but in SR4, everything is the same price whenever.

Which is what they are using to balance at character generation in my opinion... after the play starts, then you may use the crafting rules to create your equipment (whatever)... Just because I have Chemistry at level 1 does not mean that I should be able to have large amounts of explosives at 1/10th the cost at play start (nor an insane amount of combat drugs for 1/10th the cost), etc. and the guy without it is forced to pay the Normal Costs. Once play starts, that is okay (because it will take up time and resources that could be better spent elsewhere), as it will happen in game, but not in Character Creation.

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

That's an exploit problem with Chemistry itself, not with the use of crafting skills. You shouldn't be able to do terribly much with rank 1 anyway, unless you also invested a fair bit in your Logic as well. I don't see it as abusive, and that's always subject to the GM saying, 'no, that's abusive' anyway.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

That's an exploit problem with Chemistry itself, not with the use of crafting skills.

I say that it would apply to anything, at least at character creation... it is all an Exploit... whether you are paying 1/2 or 1/10th the cost that another player is paying for his character, you are exploiting the rules unfairly. Which is why they provide costs to use at character creation... Notice that you do not use the modifiers for Black Market Goods when you purchase gear at character creation... I wonder why that is? Because you are not actually "Buying" the equipment that you have at character creation... it is just a simple mechanic to regulate the outlay of initial gear.

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

What Black Market mods? SR4 does not have Street Index. The positive and negative Street Cost mods are just situational, and they could easily go either way.

It's true that you're not 'actually buying' your gear, but it's essentially identical, minus the Avail rolls.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What Black Market mods? SR4 does not have Street Index. The positive and negative Street Cost mods are just situational, and they could easily go either way.

Those are the ones that I am talking about... IS it stolen? -20%... Counterfeit? -20%

Situational or not, If most of my gear was stolen equipment, by your logic, I should get a 20% discount at character creation, but that is not how it works unless you are using a houserule... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but my point is that you don't use *either* positive or negative mods to avoid that issue. That's not the same thing as 'you can't craft anything'.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, but my point is that you don't use *either* positive or negative mods to avoid that issue. That's not the same thing as 'you can't craft anything'.

But I am not saying that you cannot craft anything, what I am saying is that you get no price break for doing so at character creation... this keeps it fair for everyone involved during Character Creation... After Play Starts, that all goes out the window... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

If you don't get a price break, you didn't craft it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MortVent]

If you don't get a price break, you didn't craft it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well remember to pay lifestyle costs for the time spent crafting prior to game start

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you don't get a price break, you didn't craft it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

In game, maybe... But I would say that that is not correct for Character Creation... The "Cost" of the Software in this case covers the months and/or years that you would have spent to Program (craft) all that software... and again, it keeps it fair for everyone. Where you get the break (assuming that you have software skills sufficient to actually program the software in the first place) is that you will not have to really worry that much about software degradation... while others without the skill will either have to pay for the Upgrades, Obtain a new cracked version of the Program, or purchase those programs legally (which has its own drawbacks)... seems like a great benefit to me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

See, no, because all software degrades, unless your GM rules that it doesn't, because the errata doesn't say, 'does not degrade at all'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) See earlier arguments about why *that* is utterly abusive.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See, no, because all software degrades, unless your GM rules that it doesn't, because the errata doesn't say, 'does not degrade at all'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) See earlier arguments about why *that* is utterly abusive.

I am not arguing that it Can't Degrade, just that it is left to the GM's perrogatives. The easy fix for that in game is to simply state that you spend time whenever you get a chance making tweaks to the software to insure that it stays SOTA... OR your GM enforces some sort of Degradation to the Self-Programmed Software if he so desires... since there is no set in stone rule/rationale it is entirely the GM's call...

What I AM saying is that you should not get any Price Breaks at Character Generation just because you crafted the gear/equipment/software/guns yourself... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Nope, you should. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But you've got your game, and I've got mine. 's cool.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Nope, you should. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But you've got your game, and I've got mine. 's cool.

Totally... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Udoshi]

So, what yerameyahu is saying is...

5BP: Restricted gear.
30BP: Nanoforge.
2BP: Shop-making- Shop level facility.

Churn out Automotive Mechanic, Armorer, Chemistry shops before the game even starts.
Then start with all gear for no cost.

Not broken at all.

Sorry dude. Chargen costs are -meant- to ensure all charaters start on a level playng field. Letting a person who put got some neocortical nanites and one point in the mechanics groups start with a bunch of gear at a discount is unbalanced as fuck. Not to mention it blows the Money Limit/'you-can-only-start-with-so-much-stuff' rule completely out of the water.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, what yerameyahu is saying is...

5BP: Restricted gear.
30BP: Nanoforge.
2BP: Shop-making- Shop level facility.

Churn out Automotive Mechanic, Armorer, Chemistry shops before the game even starts.
Then start with all gear for no cost.

Not broken at all.

It is a bit broken, but some people play that way... After all, it is their right to do so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, they'd never make it past the 'GM approves Restricted Gear' phase. See how easy?

Besides, you don't get gear for 'no cost' by any means. Fuck, as you say, is certainly more unbalanced than GM-scrutinized crafting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Udoshi]

Nah, they'd never make it past the 'GM approves Restricted Gear' phase. See how easy?

Besides, you don't get gear for 'no cost' by any means. Fuck, as you say, is certainly more unbalanced than GM-scrutinized crafting. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

If you're allowing people to roll stuff - like crafting tests - In Creation, then the face gets to roll Availability tests. And negotiation tests to get discounts. And -those- don't have optional rules to go with them.

Hell, anyone can burn an edge in character creation to make an availability test for an ares laser cannon.

How bout a used Firelance? Half of 400K is within the starting cash limit. (except, i think the default 'sell it used' modifer is 35% market value. Haha, even worse)

....

No. This is one instance where your habit of applying common sense to fictional future-fantasy escapism game mechanics is a very, very bad thing.

[Udoshi]

Now that i'm thinking about how to try to break Yerameyahu's silly houserule...

Negotiation tests through contacts to get you things at a discount - the 'friendship discount' opposed negotiation test shifts the price 10% per net hit either way.

A critical success is threshold+4 hits. Burning an edge buys you a critical hit. So all we need is ten net hits, which we can achieve very, very easily with a mild pornomancer build. Or, hell, even the right qualities, implants, and sensorware.

So the Finder's Fee for a contact getting something for you is Connection x 5%. Therefore, a connection 0, loyalty X contact has no finder's fee. (and would just use its base statblock that all Contacts have to do stuff, with no Connection bonus).
Next, we add Black Market Pipeline to that contact, which lets you 'always buy one type of merchandise', and 'confers a +3 dice pool modifier when negotiating to sell/fence goods through the Pipeline'.
Congrats, dude. If I ever play in one of your games, I'm starting with an almost completely free Eagle-C. I'm going to name it the Calrissian.

[Yerameyahu]

Nope. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) See above.

In any case, it's hardly 'my silly houserule' that you're strawman-ing. You're talking 100% about Availability and discounts, which overlaps precisely 0% with anything I've said. If it's anyone's silly houserule, it's yours. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wasabi]

...any programs you self coded would still have to be "Purchased/Acquired" before the game starts, which is what the "Cost" of the program represents.

Self coded programs cost time. While there is no requirement to pay for lifestyle from before the runners first game, if you're getting something for nothing game balance would probably indicate paying the lifestyle to have coded them is balanced.

[Wasabi]

See, no, because all software degrades, unless your GM rules that it doesn't, because the errata doesn't say, 'does not degrade at all'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) See earlier arguments about why *that* is utterly abusive.

It says the software doesn't degrade using the normal degradation rules and allows for a GM determined degradation if the GM wants to have it degrade.

(If you read the normal degradation rules it specifies normal degradation as planned obsolescence. That is the only non-optional mechanic for degradation.)

[Yerameyahu]

No, I don't believe that's the case. It does not say that *all* software degradation is planned obsolescence. It is one factor.

[Udoshi]

Well, what other kind of degredation is there?

Per unwired, hackers are allowed to research exploits to use on specific pieces of software - but that adds +2 dice when encountering it, with a small chance of it being patched out now and then - but thats not degredation.

[Doc Chase]

Solar flares, Doppler Effect of Magnetism, static interference from plastic slide rules, etc.