Spirit retool, inspired by stick and shock/taser silliness Options

[Walpurgisborn]

So the GM and I have a pretty open relationship regarding games mechanics, and I'm willing to nerf my mage character a bit in some ways if I think it provides better balance. One of the things we've noticed is spirits are powerful. Like immensely so. But, we also are of the opinion that the stick and shock/taser as a spirit killer is pretty dumb. So here's the fix we're thinking

Spirits have a single damage track. Only P damage affects spirits, all stun damage is shrugged off.

One other caveat, because of the rules wonkiness, we've kept possession spirits out of the game, so any weirdness that might result from that is out.

So what are your thoughts. Feedback appreciated.

[TommyTwoToes]

We don't use stun damage for spirits either, it cuts down on a pile of the iffy stuff. But then again we got rid of SnS rounds too.

[Lanlaorn]

I can't remember where I read it but I think spirits do have only one track and there's no difference between stun and physical damage for them.

[Walpurgisborn]

Also, per GM, all drain damage will be stun phys damage for spirits.

[TommyTwoToes]

I can't remember where I read it but I think spirits do have only one track and there's no difference between stun and physical damage for them.

Correct, however we are talking about attacks that deal stun-only do not affect spirits at all. This rules out punching (unagmented anyway), tasers, neuro stun gas, and a whole bunch of other things that themantically do not make sense affecting spirits.

[Lanlaorn]

Ah, sure. Although I think spirits are already immune to toxins like nerve gas and it's pretty unlikely your fists would do enough damage to bypass the ITNW without being augmented to do physical.

Regarding electrical and fire damage, IMO they have to overcome ITNW still but beyond that who cares. If it's a Force 2 spirit and your 6S(e) SnS rounds are doing damage to it, that makes sense.

[Mäx]

Regarding electrical and fire damage, IMO they have to overcome ITNW still but beyond that who cares. If it's a Force 2 spirit and your 6S(e) SnS rounds are doing damage to it, that makes sense.

Actually SnS is good all the way ip to force 6 and that one taser is good up to force 8.

[Lanlaorn]

Actually SnS is good all the way ip to force 6 and that one taser is good up to force 8.

The premise being what, that -half armor applies to ITNW's 'armor' of Force x2?

Because that's definitely not RAW either, the taser, etc. rules always pretty clearly say half impact armor and I think ITNW is off in a class by itself, it's not ballistic or impact armor you can pierce but a magical threshold before you can even affect the spirit.

RAW I don't think AP rounds or electrical rounds benefit at all from their negative armor aspects.

[Shinobi Killfist]

The premise being what, that -half armor applies to ITNW's 'armor' of Force x2?

Because that's definitely not RAW either, the taser, etc. rules always pretty clearly say half impact armor and I think ITNW is off in a class by itself, it's not ballistic or impact armor you can pierce but a magical threshold before you can even affect the spirit.

RAW I don't think AP rounds or electrical rounds benefit at all from their negative armor aspects.

Spirits would be basically unstoppable if you follow that ruling. SnS while lame as hell is a good thing vs spirits IMO because it gives mundanes a chance of dealing with them. I think the issue is in previous editions force 4-5 spirits were sort of the top of what you'd normally see. In 4e there is no reason outside of a table rule for you not to summon up force 8ish spirits fairly often.

[Mäx]

The premise being what, that -half armor applies to ITNW's 'armor' of Force x2?

Because that's definitely not RAW either, the taser, etc. rules always pretty clearly say half impact armor

Of cource it's half impact armor, hallf ballistic armor would be kinda useless as elemental damage is resisted with impact armor.

[Walpurgisborn]

Spirits would be basically unstoppable if you follow that ruling. SnS while lame as hell is a good thing vs spirits IMO because it gives mundanes a chance of dealing with them. I think the issue is in previous editions force 4-5 spirits were sort of the top of what you'd normally see. In 4e there is no reason outside of a table rule for you not to summon up force 8ish spirits fairly often.

Except of course that it might kill you to do so.

OTOH, there are a few house rules that we run with in our game, specifically to prevent force 8 munchkinism. Improve attribute spell won't impact drain, is the biggest one.

On that note, my mage just recently tried summoning and binding a force 6. At magic 5, and a drain attribute at 5, he ended up pretty screwed when the spirit rolled 8 successes on it's bind test. Even after spending a point on edge, poor Jack was only able to hit enough successes to prevent himself from dying. Thankfully, he has spirit affinity, so the spirit of man decided that the poor bastard had already done enough to himself. I know that the math (which we checked afterwards) put this in the, nearly never going to happen category, but it was a real kick to the crotch realizing I might have to roll a new character before the mission started.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Except of course that it might kill you to do so.

OTOH, there are a few house rules that we run with in our game, specifically to prevent force 8 munchkinism. Improve attribute spell won't impact drain, is the biggest one.

On that note, my mage just recently tried summoning and binding a force 6. At magic 5, and a drain attribute at 5, he ended up pretty screwed when the spirit rolled 8 successes on it's bind test. Even after spending a point on edge, poor Jack was only able to hit enough successes to prevent himself from dying. Thankfully, he has spirit affinity, so the spirit of man decided that the poor bastard had already done enough to himself. I know that the math (which we checked afterwards) put this in the, nearly never going to happen category, but it was a real kick to the crotch realizing I might have to roll a new character before the mission started.

Yes it can happen. And with binding the x2 force part makes it a bit tougher for the high force spirits, I usually stop at force 4. My basic limit is 8 dice in the resistance check, so force 8 for summoning force 4 for binding. While yes it is possible to get hit with 8 hits for 16 drain it is massively unlikely. I have been hit with 6 hits for 12, but since I rolled 12 dice to resist drain I was still conscious. One first aid check later and I was a whopping 2 boxes hurt. Yeah that sucks but I'd rather have a force 8 spirit and be at 2 boxes of damage than have a force 5 spirit and be in perfect health. And really that is about as bad as it will even get for me, the vast majority of the time when summoning a force 8 spirit I am in perfect health afterwards.

To me drain is not much of a limit for summoning spirits. You can call it munchkinism if you want but to me it is just a logical reaction to how a person would react given that the rules are kind of like the physics of the setting.

[Walpurgisborn]

To me drain is not much of a limit for summoning spirits. You can call it munchkinism if you want but to me it is just a logical reaction to how a person would react given that the rules are kind of like the physics of the setting.

It's a milage may vary bit. All things said and done, a force 8 is nasty, and both the GM and I agree that kind of power should be very very rare in game, particularly since the setting is designed for lower power levels. If your game can work with that kind of power level, than summon away to you -- but with us, it would be munchkinism.

[Lanlaorn]

Spirits would be basically unstoppable if you follow that ruling. SnS while lame as hell is a good thing vs spirits IMO because it gives mundanes a chance of dealing with them. I think the issue is in previous editions force 4-5 spirits were sort of the top of what you'd normally see. In 4e there is no reason outside of a table rule for you not to summon up force 8ish spirits fairly often.

Well no, they'd just be as difficult to take out as armored vehicles (up to 10ish at least). There's always an "Attack of Will" (from SM) in a pinch I guess, that has you ignoring ITNW and doing Charisma physical damage, so the team face could be pretty potent if his Willpower is good enough to land hits.

I think the whole idea was "bring an Adept or Mage to fight this" in the same way that the various Matrix support actions require "bring a Hacker or TM to do this", although I will admit being a hacker is a lower investment.

Also I checked SR4A and they even have "armor rating" in air quotes and they specifically go to the trouble of saying it works as normal armor but isn't, etc. Any house rule to make it easier to shoot spirits is just that, and blatantly not RAW. That's why the OP is kind of confusing to me heh. No need to "retool" spirits so that tasers don't screw them. They don't RAW, just refuse to house rule in the cheesy tactics.

[SkepticInc]

Spirits would be basically unstoppable if you follow that ruling. SnS while lame as hell is a good thing vs spirits IMO because it gives mundanes a chance of dealing with them. I think the issue is in previous editions force 4-5 spirits were sort of the top of what you'd normally see. In 4e there is no reason outside of a table rule for you not to summon up force 8ish spirits fairly often.

My GM quashed my attempt at using an electrical discharge weapon to drop a spirit. He made a very good argument that if you could zap a spirit like that then Ares wouldn't have had to drop a thermonuclear device on downtown Chicago. Subsequent research also shows that stun guns operate by sending powerful and contradictory signals through all of your muscles, and damage electrical devices by overloading switches. So unless you can argue that Spirits come equipped with a hackable nervous system there is no reason that stun weaponry amounts of electricity are going to hurt them.

What you can use instead is the laser weaponry. It's usually too expensive for players, but brings to my mind the image of a team of corporate Exterminators, showing up to deal with an Infestation using insecticide and laser beams. They'd be in the Mitsuhama EE suit with form fitting armor and personal piecemeal protection systems underneath. It could even be a reality Trideo show:

BUG BUSTERS™! A Horizon Original Series.

[Laodicea]

Immunity to normal damage provides hardened armor, which I don't think can be halved by weapons systems.

[Muspellsheimr]

Because that's definitely not RAW either,

Yes, it is. Armor Penetration, the half Impact from elemental effects, and similar all apply fully to Hardened Armor (& thus to Immunities).

If the armor is "special" or not is irrelevant; it is armor, is used as part of the damage resistance test, and is affected fully by all forms of armor penetration. This is Rules as Written.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Well no, they'd just be as difficult to take out as armored vehicles (up to 10ish at least). There's always an "Attack of Will" (from SM) in a pinch I guess, that has you ignoring ITNW and doing Charisma physical damage, so the team face could be pretty potent if his Willpower is good enough to land hits.

I think the whole idea was "bring an Adept or Mage to fight this" in the same way that the various Matrix support actions require "bring a Hacker or TM to do this", although I will admit being a hacker is a lower investment.

Also I checked SR4A and they even have "armor rating" in air quotes and they specifically go to the trouble of saying it works as normal armor but isn't, etc. Any house rule to make it easier to shoot spirits is just that, and blatantly not RAW. That's why the OP is kind of confusing to me heh. No need to "retool" spirits so that tasers don't screw them. They don't RAW, just refuse to house rule in the cheesy tactics.

Just as difficult to take out as vehicles and that is a good thing? Seriously you can pull these thing out of thin air, do you really want a I can pull a cirtymaster out of thin air as a power you give to a player?

And Muspellsheimr has the RAW on this.

[Shinobi Killfist]

My GM quashed my attempt at using an electrical discharge weapon to drop a spirit. He made a very good argument that if you could zap a spirit like that then Ares wouldn't have had to drop a thermonuclear device on downtown Chicago. Subsequent research also shows that stun guns operate by sending powerful and contradictory signals through all of your muscles, and damage electrical devices by overloading switches. So unless you can argue that Spirits come equipped with a hackable nervous system there is no reason that stun weaponry amounts of electricity are going to hurt them.

What you can use instead is the laser weaponry. It's usually too expensive for players, but brings to my mind the image of a team of corporate Exterminators, showing up to deal with an Infestation using insecticide and laser beams. They'd be in the Mitsuhama EE suit with form fitting armor and personal piecemeal protection systems underneath. It could even be a reality Trideo show:

BUG BUSTERS™! A Horizon Original Series.

While this is somewhat logical technically by the rules a spirit of fire is hurt by fire all spirits can be gassed, electrocuted etc. They do not have any immunities other than to normal weapons. Your GM is free to rule in ways that he thinks makes sense and what he thinks makes the game better. But weirdly I can use things that should only effect organics on a materialized spirit being.

[Stormdrake]

Ok, back up a sec here. Where does it say that spirits only have one track for damage and that stun only weapons (ie SnS) does not affect them? I can't believe i missed a rule like that.

[Lanlaorn]

Just as difficult to take out as vehicles and that is a good thing? Seriously you can pull these thing out of thin air, do you really want a I can pull a cirtymaster out of thin air as a power you give to a player?

And Muspellsheimr has the RAW on this.

As difficult to take out as vehicles for mundane people, an Adept could tear through them. And regarding RAW, no he doesn't, read for yourself:

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain
type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to
twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated
as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that
if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically
does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added
to the damage resistance test as normal armor.
Immunity to Age: Some beings possess immunity to aging. These
beings neither age nor suffer the effects of aging.
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

The writers are literally going above and beyond to say that this is not armor. The spirit has an "armor rating" that is treated as "hardened" protection (note: it's not hardened armor, it just works similar to it so no, something that works on hardened armor does not therefore work on Immunity). I mean the sentence where hardened is in air quotes and they say protection instead of armor is pretty obviously specifically closing any loopholes.

I don't care what house rules you guys play by, but that's RAW right there, spirits are ridiculously hard to kill without magic.

[SkepticInc]

I don't care what house rules you guys play by, but that's RAW right there, spirits are ridiculously hard to kill without magic.

Or lasers. *Pew pew!*

[ Spoiler ]

$imon$ez:
Arsenal p41
"Ares MP Laser 3 | 7P | AP*(1/2) | SA | 2x5(clip) or external source | 18F | 12k |"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

[Walpurgisborn]

Ok, back up a sec here. Where does it say that spirits only have one track for damage and that stun only weapons (ie SnS) does not affect them? I can't believe i missed a rule like that.

It doesn't, that's the house rule I was looking for feedback on.

[Lanlaorn]

Lasers are the exact same thing as tasers for this purpose, they reduce impact armor by one half. Spirit don't have impact armor, they have ITNW which is an "armor rating". You know, if you really wanted to be cheap as hell you could actually dress your spirits in armor. It won't be quite as convenient since they'll have to walk around with you but there's no reason a Spirit of Man can't also be running around in a milspec armor suit.

For the record I do agree that it's a crazy level of protection for mid to high level spirits.

[SkepticInc]

Lasers are the exact same thing as tasers for this purpose, they reduce impact armor by one half. Spirit don't have impact armor, they have ITNW which is an "armor rating". You know, if you really wanted to be cheap as hell you could actually dress your spirits in armor. It won't be quite as convenient since they'll have to walk around with you but there's no reason a Spirit of Man can't also be running around in a milspec armor suit.

For the record I do agree that it's a crazy level of protection for mid to high level spirits.

Lasers do not have the problems that tasers do because they do Physical damage. You will notice that Immunity to Normal Weapons refers up to Hardened Armor, which refers to "modified Damage Value" "exceed[ing] the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration)". And if you don't bounce your attack "Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to it's rating."

The Spirit may only have one damage track, but that doesn't mean the armor is treated any differently from normal.

[ Spoiler ]

$imon$ez:
SR4 p288
"Hardened Armor
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly off the critter; don't even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test. Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating."
$imoff::

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--