Spirit retool, inspired by stick and shock/taser silliness Options

[Lanlaorn]

No, I quoted the Immunity attribute above, look:

This Immunity Armor is treated
as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that
if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically
does no damage

They say it's analogous to hardened armor not that it is hardened armor. And then clarify what they mean in the same sentence! At no point is it inferred that the weaknesses of hardened armor carry over. They don't even say hardened armor, it's ' "hardened" protection'. Seriously folks IMO I see the writers bending over backwards here to prevent exactly the interpretation you guys are coming to.

Hardened Armor is a physical thing, like a carapace or a dragon's scales that physically reduce damage the way a vehicle's armor does. INTW is different, and if it wasn't then they would have just said "Spirits have Hardened Armor equal to Force x2".

Oh and btw, how do you guys access that $imon$ez resource? That seems remarkably handy (and also a crazy copyright violation, lol).

[Shinobi Killfist]

The writers are literally going above and beyond to say that this is not armor. The spirit has an "armor rating" that is treated as "hardened" protection (note: it's not hardened armor, it just works similar to it so no, something that works on hardened armor does not therefore work on Immunity). I mean the sentence where hardened is in air quotes and they say protection instead of armor is pretty obviously specifically closing any loopholes.

I don't care what house rules you guys play by, but that's RAW right there, spirits are ridiculously hard to kill without magic.

I don't want to argue with the informative power of air quotes, but where does it say it is treated like armor except for armor penetration values?

You seem to be adding a sentence somewhere that does not exist. The spirit has an "armor rating" that is ]treated as "hardened" protection.

Awesome now how does armor rating work, how does hardened protection work? Follow those rules and you have immunity to normal weapons. If it was Armor rating but more awesome because AP doesn't help don't you think that would have been mentioned.

[Lanlaorn]

You can't say that because armor penetration isn't expressly excluded then therefore of course it applies. They define the term by explicitly mentioning each benefit and giving an example of something similar. Adding in weaknesses is your own interpretation. Why do you think they needed this sentence at the end:

Additionally, this “armor rating” is added
to the damage resistance test as normal armor.

In addition your house rule just opens more questions. Is the spirit's "armor" non-conductive? Why not fire resistant? It's some kind of magical force field, you'd think that wouldn't conduct electricity and so add it's "full rating" to ignore the DV of the attack.

[SkepticInc]

They say it's analogous to hardened armor not that it is hardened armor. And then clarify what they mean in the same sentence! At no point is it inferred that the weaknesses of hardened armor carry over. They don't even say hardened armor, it's ' "hardened" protection'. Seriously folks IMO I see the writers bending over backwards here to prevent exactly the interpretation you guys are coming to.

Hardened Armor is a physical thing, like a carapace or a dragon's scales that physically reduce damage the way a vehicle's armor does. INTW is different, and if it wasn't then they would have just said "Spirits have Hardened Armor equal to Force x2".

Oh and btw, how do you guys access that $imon$ez resource? That seems remarkably handy (and also a crazy copyright violation, lol).

Finish reading the sentence you are quoting.

About your comment on $imon$ez: $imon$ez references and correctly attributes all of it's quotes, is using the quotes for the purpose of criticism and/or commentary, is not being used to draw a profit from otherwise copyrighted material, and can be seen to have a positive effect on the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work (based on an argument that ease of reference is value-added), and so should fall under Fair Use [link] and therefore isn't a copyright violation.

Here is the reference to the rules you stated.

[ Spoiler ]

$imon$ez:
SR4 p288
This Immunity Armor is treated as "hardened" protection (see Hardened Armor above)"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

Here is a reference to the US Laws on the Limitations of Copyright as referring to Fair Use:

[ Spoiler ]

$imon$ez:
§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use40
"Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include —
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors."
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

[Lanlaorn]

I'm asking how you use $imon$ez, aka what's the url? Google is failing in this regard.

Also, I personally don't care at all about information piracy so don't worry about it, but fyi that argument would never hold up in court. The fact that you could swap in "downloading music" in the place of $imon$ez and all the points still apply should set off warning bells, but ultimately it's up to the copyright holder to enforce it and I suppose the creators don't care.

[SkepticInc]

I'm asking how you use $imon$ez, aka what's the url? Google is failing in this regard.

Also, I personally don't care at all about information piracy so don't worry about it, but fyi that argument would never hold up in court. The fact that you could swap in "downloading music" in the place of $imon$ez and all the points still apply should set off warning bells, but ultimately it's up to the copyright holder to enforce it and I suppose the creators don't care.

You didn't read the applicable law, then, did you? Limited quotations from a copyrighted document that give full reference to the copyrighted work and a wholesale reproduction of an intellectual property for distribution are not the same thing at all. You may not care about information piracy, but I very much do. If you were to go and cut a book up into quotes using $imon$ez, post them, and then recompile them into another book, you are then engaging in intellectual property theft, which would be the same as the "downloading music" but useful quotes of a limited nature are not the same thing as an mp3 by a long shot.

Also, the creators and writers of Shadowrun, many of whom frequent this site and also care about information piracy for some reason, and the corporation holding the intellectual property rights are not the same either.

[Dumori]

The premise being what, that -half armor applies to ITNW's 'armor' of Force x2?

Because that's definitely not RAW either, the taser, etc. rules always pretty clearly say half impact armor and I think ITNW is off in a class by itself, it's not ballistic or impact armor you can pierce but a magical threshold before you can even affect the spirit.

RAW I don't think AP rounds or electrical rounds benefit at all from their negative armor aspects.

Its both. Thus it don;t matter what you pick you half it.

Also it don't matter you can't shoot spirits as they cant even materialise by RAW. Buff the ITNW all you want they never get to use it...

[Dumori]

Lasers are the exact same thing as tasers for this purpose, they reduce impact armor by one half. Spirit don't have impact armor, they have ITNW which is an "armor rating".

Mystic armor and the armor spell also give "armor rating" that is x/x impact and balistic.

[Lanlaorn]

You didn't read the applicable law, then, did you? Limited quotations from a copyrighted document that give full reference to the copyrighted work and a wholesale reproduction of an intellectual property for distribution are not the same thing at all. You may not care about information piracy, but I very much do. If you were to go and cut a book up into quotes using $imon$ez, post them, and then recompile them into another book, you are then engaging in intellectual property theft, which would be the same as the "downloading music" but useful quotes of a limited nature are not the same thing as an mp3 by a long shot.

Also, the creators and writers of Shadowrun, many of whom frequent this site and also care about information piracy for some reason, and the corporation holding the intellectual property rights are not the same either.

Quoting works in an intellectual paper is fine, but a database that contains the entirety of a work is not fine, referenced or not. What's the distinction between this electronic copy of SR4 rules and a pirated copy of the PDF?

You know you also keep not providing the url to me so I could see for myself, despite my repeated requests.

[SkepticInc]

Quoting works in an intellectual paper is fine, but a database that contains the entirety of a work is not fine, referenced or not. What's the distinction between this electronic copy of SR4 rules and a pirated copy of the PDF?

You know you also keep not providing the url to me so I could see for myself, despite my repeated requests.

Ah, let me post the "program" for you.

$imon$ez:
//Book //(p)age#
//"Quoted Text"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

See what I mean? There is no database containing the SR universe, other than my head and PDFs.

[tagz]

Lanloarn, I think you're missing something important in the very quote you're using.

A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain
type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to
twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated
as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that
if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically
does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added
to the damage resistance test as normal armor.
Immunity to Age: Some beings possess immunity to aging. These
beings neither age nor suffer the effects of aging.
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

"As normal armor" reads that for all intents and purposes the armor rating is treated like regular armor. Regular armor's rating is modified by all types of AP.

The modification of armor ratings takes place prior to soaks as spelled out in combat and armor rules. The effect for Hardend armor creates a 100% soak pass fail test, the test for this occurs at the time damage is soaked. Whether or not we call it Hardend armor or something in air quotes, we are using that same effect and that effect is not changed in the description here. Therefor, modified armor values are used when calculating the effects of ITNW.

Seems to me like it's both backed up by it's (admittedly poorly written) language, and proper use of game mechanics. To treat it otherwise would require a deeper explanation in the description of ITNW. If the rules to not explicitly provide an exemption, all other rules apply as normal.

"Lasers are the exact same thing as tasers for this purpose, they reduce impact armor by one half. Spirit don't have impact armor, they have ITNW which is an "armor rating".

By this reasoning spirits receive no benefit from ITNW at all. A gunshot is soaked with Ballistic armor, and a spirit has none, they have INTW = 2xF. Likewise, Lasers reduce impact armor, a spirit has ITNW = 2XF. If you are going to say it cannot be halved because it isn't the same type of armor then you should not be using it when the rules specifically call for the use of said armor. As such by your interpretation that they are not interchangeable, a spirit receives no armor to nearly all types of attacks.

Instead, ITNW is treated as regular armor, (both ballistic and impact) AS REGULAR ARMOR. The only difference is that if you don't exceed the modified armor rating the defender makes a full soak.

[Lanlaorn]

Ah, let me post the "program" for you.

$imon$ez:
//Book //(p)age#
//"Quoted Text"
$imoff:

--$imon$ez is an opensource [Knowsoft]::code provided by TrnZhX--

See what I mean? There is no database containing the SR universe, other than my head and PDFs.

Lol! You should have said as much. There are various bots like that, typically found in IRC chat rooms. For example a religious chat channel might have a bot called Word_Of_God that spits out Bible passages on request, etc. I didn't realize you were just having a bit of fun with your rules quotes.

"As normal armor" reads that for all intents and purposes the armor rating is treated like regular armor. Regular armor's rating is modified by all types of AP.

The modification of armor ratings takes place prior to soaks as spelled out in combat and armor rules. The effect for Hardend armor creates a 100% soak pass fail test, the test for this occurs at the time damage is soaked. Whether or not we call it Hardend armor or something in air quotes, we are using that same effect and that effect is not changed in the description here. Therefor, modified armor values are used when calculating the effects of ITNW.

Seems to me like it's both backed up by it's (admittedly poorly written) language, and proper use of game mechanics. To treat it otherwise would require a deeper explanation in the description of ITNW. If the rules to not explicitly provide an exemption, all other rules apply as normal.


QUOTE
"Lasers are the exact same thing as tasers for this purpose, they reduce impact armor by one half. Spirit don't have impact armor, they have ITNW which is an "armor rating".

By this reasoning spirits receive no benefit from ITNW at all. A gunshot is soaked with Ballistic armor, and a spirit has none, they have INTW = 2xF. Likewise, Lasers reduce impact armor, a spirit has ITNW = 2XF. If you are going to say it cannot be halved because it isn't the same type of armor then you should not be using it when the rules specifically call for the use of said armor. As such by your interpretation that they are not interchangeable, a spirit receives no armor to nearly all types of attacks.

Instead, ITNW is treated as regular armor, (both ballistic and impact) AS REGULAR ARMOR. The only difference is that if you don't exceed the modified armor rating the defender makes a full soak.

Oh to be clear, I'm not disputing that the damage resistance has armor penetration effects, just the original check to overcome the immunity. So for example a Force 4 spirit, ITNW at 8, IMO if you shoot a DV 7 laser at it, no damage taken, and ITNW is not reduced by 50%. If you shoot a DV 9 laser then it's taking damage with 4 armor + body resisting it (because for the damage resistance check, you treat the ITNW value as normal armor).

I don't know, it seems clear to me but meh..

[SkepticInc]

Lol! You should have said as much. There are various bots like that, typically found in IRC chat rooms. For example a religious chat channel might have a bot called Word_Of_God that spits out Bible passages on request, etc. I didn't realize you were just having a bit of fun with your rules quotes.

If you thought I was using a database of some kind, I can see why you would have called it piracy. Something like that without Topps' seal of approval would definitely be a copyright violation. Sorry that I got snippy.

Oh to be clear, I'm not disputing that the damage resistance has armor penetration effects, just the original check to overcome the immunity. So for example a Force 4 spirit, ITNW at 8, IMO if you shoot a DV 7 laser at it, no damage taken, and ITNW is not reduced by 50%. If you shoot a DV 9 laser then it's taking damage with 4 armor + body resisting it (because for the damage resistance check, you treat the ITNW value as normal armor).

I don't know, it seems clear to me but meh..

You know, there is a whole sentence after the words "automatically does no damage" that isn't in my book? I take it that got changed between editions?

But what I think you are looking at is the description in Immunity that says if the DV does not exceed the Armor it does no damage. The modified damage value is not mentioned here, but is up in Hardened Armor. So this is a lawyer type question. I'll look up some stuff and get back to ya.

[Lanlaorn]

Don't worry about being snippy heh, once it was clear that we just had a miscommunication I immediately understood, I'd respond the same way if I thought someone was saying I shouldn't quote the rules in a forum post lol. How would we ever get any discussion done without that? Although the D&D official forums are pretty strict about that sort of thing heh.

And yes that's exactly the point I'm making. The difference between Hardened Armor and Immunity to Normal Weapons is that HA explicitly says that armor penetration to defeat the damage immunity works quoted here:

If the
modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armor
rating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly
off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test.

Meanwhile the ITNW does not say that whatsoever and in fact takes great pains to make sure to distinguish between immunity and armor (quoted numerous times in the thread already, not going to bother again). Once you're rolling damage resistance, yes of course treat it (as the rules exactly say) as normal armor and reduce by 50%. But for the initial check to see whether the target is damaged at all, comparing DV to ITNW? No way. ITNW itself is not impact armor and the Immunity rules text really stresses that.

[toturi]

Meanwhile the ITNW does not say that whatsoever and in fact takes great pains to make sure to distinguish between immunity and armor (quoted numerous times in the thread already, not going to bother again). Once you're rolling damage resistance, yes of course treat it (as the rules exactly say) as normal armor and reduce by 50%. But for the initial check to see whether the target is damaged at all, comparing DV to ITNW? No way. ITNW itself is not impact armor and the Immunity rules text really stresses that.

ITNW with respect to checking whether the target is damaged at all, refers to Hardened Armor. Hence you follow the Hardened Armor rules for that particular portion.

[Dumori]

Oh to be clear, I'm not disputing that the damage resistance has armor penetration effects, just the original check to overcome the immunity. So for example a Force 4 spirit, ITNW at 8, IMO if you shoot a DV 7 laser at it, no damage taken, and ITNW is not reduced by 50%. If you shoot a DV 9 laser then it's taking damage with 4 armor + body resisting it (because for the damage resistance check, you treat the ITNW value as normal armor).

I don't know, it seems clear to me but meh..

But that's not how hardened armour works. ITNW grants hardened armour with a few specal rules. Hardened armour is lowered by AP. Its armour ±AP < DV(with out net hits) then damage is done. That's RAW, RAI and everything.


Also I repeat if you going to be that fiddly with wording spirits can not materialise by RAW. As Materialisation is a physical power and you can't use physical power in the astral where a spirit must be to use the power. So in you RAW strict game ITNW won't come up that much will it.

[Lanlaorn]

I think you're reading a lot into that parenthetical "see Hardened Armor above", it was just an example of a similar effect, the rest of the sentence explains exactly what it means, it makes no mention of modified armor (as the HA rules do).

[Dumori]

How ever it is treated as such. Thus if they wanted AP not to effect it they would have to state such. In fact the bracketed (modified by Armor Penitartion) is likely only missing as it is not really necessary in the hardened armour description. AP effects all amour from any source find me a piece of armour that says all AP isn't used.

I'm also going to make the point toturi is with me on this. I'm also going to asume seeing that you joined 9 days ago you don't know about his strict interpretation of the of RAW. He follows the RAW to the letter. Such examples of this is him arguing that a rack can be poisoned by the rules until he found a line in a rule book that proved him wrong.

Hardened Armor
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
Hardened Armor is even tougher than normal armor. If the
modified Damage Value of an attack does not exceed the Armorrating (modified by Armor Penetration), then it bounces harmlessly
off the critter; don’t even bother to make a Damage Resistance Test.
Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating.

Immunity
Type: P • Action: Auto • Range: Self • Duration: Always
A critter with Immunity has an enhanced resistance to a certain
type of attack or affliction. The critter gains an “Armor rating” equal to
twice its Magic against that damage. This Immunity Armor is treated
as “hardened” protection (see Hardened Armor above), meaning that
if the Damage Value does not exceed the Armor, then the attack automatically
does no damage. Additionally, this “armor rating” is added
to the damage resistance test as normal armor.
...
Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen.

The two rules required. First Immunity Armor is both Ballistic and Impact armor. Second there's no rule saying AP isn't used in the calculation(Meaning Immunity Fire/Shock would require two time as much armour to get the same effect an odd quirk).

[tagz]

Then why reference them in the first place? The description goes on to repeat a similar rule, so why provide the reference if the ruling is different?

The writers have definitely made some mistakes in their choice of words and language but referring to a rule but intending a distinct change from it without providing a clear exemption from the rule just referenced?

Besides, the armor rules say that they always apply to all forms of armor unless an exemption is made. That means if it ignores AP they HAVE TO STATE THAT EXPLICITLY as per p160 SR4A.

Unless otherwise noted, the following rules apply to both ranged combat and melee attacks.

I see no explicit statement saying it ignores AP, only an inferred one by one of several rule interpretations, so by the rule on p160 we treat AP as normal.

[Dumori]

Thanks for the AP quote I couldn't find it to add to my list of quotes.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think you're reading a lot into that parenthetical "see Hardened Armor above", it was just an example of a similar effect, the rest of the sentence explains exactly what it means, it makes no mention of modified armor (as the HA rules do).

And everyone else seems to think that you are not reading enough into it. If the majority of people here on Dumpshock disagree with you on the RAW (and it seems like way more than just a Majority here) then you are probably doing it all wrong...

Keep the Faith

[Lanlaorn]

And everyone else seems to think that you are not reading enough into it. If the majority of people here on Dumpshock disagree with you on the RAW (and it seems like way more than just a Majority here) then you are probably doing it all wrong...

Keep the Faith

Just so you know, that argument is a complete logical fallacy.

And look, I don't know what was intended and I'm not going to make claims about how it should be written, I'm just pointing out how it currently is written. That paragraph is unnecessarily, extremely convoluted if it's saying what you believe.

I'm not going to argue any more about this, but I am curious about one thing, if tasers, lasers and flamethrowers are -half ITNW against spirits, does the sonic rifle completely ignore ITNW?

[Whipstitch]

And look, I don't know what was intended and I'm not going to make claims about how it should be written, I'm just pointing out how it currently is written. That paragraph is unnecessarily, extremely convoluted if it's saying what you believe.

Funny thing is, I think your interpretation can be described in much the same way. I just figured it meant "It's like Hardened Armor, but more magicky, and can be bypassed in the following ways." Plus, there's this li'l tidbit:

Physical spirits have the power of Immunity to Normal Weapons (p. 295), giving them Armor equal to twice their Force against all attacks.

As far as I'm concerned, this rather clears up any lingering ambiguity as far as intent goes, at least as to whether or not it should be considered to follow the same rules as Armor. They just keep on talking about the armor rating over and over again. Tossing a few quotation marks around "armor rating" isn't enough to make me think that they don't think it should be treated as if it were armor rating.

You guys are funny sometimes.

[Whipstitch]

As difficult to take out as vehicles for mundane people, an Adept could tear through them.

Missed this. It's sorta true, but not really.

Adepts have an answer for the Immunity problem but not much of an answer as far being able to consistently hit goes, at least vs. smartly played Force 5+ and up spirits that can even give the Samurai's automatic weapons fire a bit of a hard time. It's the danged Skillx2 thing with Full Defense again. On Full Defense, a Force 5 Guardian Spirit will be rolling 17 dice to defend against melee. That's not impossible to hit, of course, but doing so is by no means certain, and Air/Fire Spirits are even worse because they are faster, can fly and wield ranged attacks. At Force 7 you're basically trying to knock out Bruce Lee. Again, it's not impossible, but you really need to go all-in and start taking a good, hard look at your Edge dice, even as an Adept.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Missed this. It's sorta true, but not really.

Adepts have an answer for the Immunity problem but not much of an answer as far being able to consistently hit goes, at least vs. smartly played Force 5+ and up spirits that can even give the Samurai's automatic weapons fire a bit of a hard time. It's the danged Skillx2 thing with Full Defense again. On Full Defense, a Force 5 Guardian Spirit will be rolling 17 dice to defend against melee. That's not impossible to hit, of course, but doing so is by no means certain, and Air/Fire Spirits are even worse because they are faster, can fly and wield ranged attacks. At Force 7 you're basically trying to knock out Bruce Lee. Again, it's not impossible, but you really need to go all-in and start taking a good, hard look at your Edge dice, even as an Adept.

Well with 2 IPs there is a good chance they will run out of full defense actions before the adept runs out of punches. But yes it is really hard for an adept, even if they aren't flying and using powers.