[X] My Assistant

[Yerameyahu]

Aha, got you! You said, "It might be a 20 minute session, but okay." So there is no 'rest of the session'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Again, there's a difference between 'better than the NPCs' and 'game is now broken'. I don't think anyone's saying to kill the PCs.

[Omenowl]

Aha, got you! You said, "It might be a 20 minute session, but okay." So there is no 'rest of the session'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Again, there's a difference between 'better than the NPCs' and 'game is now broken'. I don't think anyone's saying to kill the PCs.

So you have a second session afterwards. I don't see how the end of one adventure automatically excludes a second one. It is just like when you play a LAN game with your friends you take a break and if everyone is ready for more you play some more.

[Yerameyahu]

Not if one of them is godmoding. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Critias]

Is that sarcasm?

Let me paint the scene for you. You are [overengineered combat monster from Dumpshock]. You are offered money to kill a guy. You arrive, and decide not to bother with sneaking - you walk in the front door. The rent-a-cops, when they hit you at all, are packing low-power weapons that bounce harmlessly off your soak pool. You kill eleven men in the lobby, six men in the hallway, four men and a CEO in the penthouse. None of them deal damage. You leave.

How long will that be fun?

I don't know...ask the players. Are they having fun? If so, things are going pretty well, huh?

Every Superman needs his Kryptonite, or there is no story. As a GM, I am here to give you an adventure, a story. If there is no risk, no challenge, then there can be no victory, no glory. It is my *job* to one-up you and make you work for your win. Otherwise, you haven't really won a damn thing.

It's not your job to one-up anyone. It's your job to (a) have fun, and (b) help your players have fun. If they like stomping all over everything in their path and are having a blast just flinging dice around and describing their actions, then "risk" and "challenge" are overrated. It's not about having "won" a damn thing, it's about having a good time.

Not everyone games the same way. No one is right or wrong here. If a silly powerful character with a 20+ strength is what the dude wants to play, and if it's what the GM is okay with running, and it's what the other folks at the game table are into...what's the harm?

[Yerameyahu]

It's a lot of assumption that the whole group and the GM are all enjoying that, but sure, in that specific case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Graptharr]

kk the build is mostly finished
here is an ugly cut and paste to see how you guys rate it

As a descendant of the original bear who was an inspiration for Winnie the poo, I lead a decent life in the circus. Then I awakened and was aware of myself. Soon afterwards I understood that I had to leave. And so I did, but not before raiding the proverbial honey jar and leaving



Bear Shapeshifting Formori 115

Qualities
(Surge 3 -30)
(Metagenetic improvement (STR -40)
(Celerity -10)
(Elongated limbs -10)
(Extravagant eyes Silver +10)
(Striking skin pigment Flame Red +10)
(Vestigial tail +10)
Adept -20
Martial arts (Wrestling) Throw, Ground, +1 -10
Martial arts (Wrestling) Kick, Finish, +1 dv -10
Enemy con 1/loyal 2/ Inc 2 +10
Illiterate +20
Debt 20 +40
1000 730
-25 +2 agi 25
-45 +3 rea 70
-45 +3 cha 115
-45 +3 wil 160
-25 +3 int 185
-25 +2 log 210
-95 +5 mag 330
-70 +4 edge 375
-210 +4 STR 585
-95 +2 body 680

Stats
Bod 10
Agi 3
Rea 4
STR 12
Cha 4
Int 4
Log 3
Wil 4
Ini 7
Magic 6
Edge 5

Remaining karma 330 for cash+ skills
-20 Influence skill groups +2
-32 +5 unarmed
-32 +5 thrown
-2 Unarmed (Wrestling)
-2 Thrown (Overhand)
-14 automotive mechanics +3
- 14 Pilot Ground craft+3
-20 Athletics +2
-22 Dodge +4
-2 Dodge (ranged
-20 Outdoors +2
-20 Stealth +
-8 Japanese +2
-8 Russian +2
-14 Perception +3
-8 (City) Shapeshifter Hideouts
-8 (City) Fixers
-8 (city) Humanis policlub activities
-4 artisan
-2 artisan (wood sculptures)
English native language
Skills spent 260

Influence +2
Unarmed 5 (wrestling+2)
Throwing (Overhand+2)
Automotive mechanic +3
Pilot Ground Craft +3
Dodge +4(ranged+2)
Artisan 1 (wood scultupers+2)
Athletics +2
Outdoors +2
Perception +3
Stealth +2
Language (Japanese) +2
Language (Russian) +2
Street (city) Shapeshifter hideouts
Street (city) Fixers
Street (city) Humanis policlub activities


Adept powers
Penetrating strike level 3 (while wrestling) .5625 .5625
Power Throw 3 (Manufactured weapons) .5625 1.125
Critical strike 6 (wrestling) 1.125 2.25
Missal mastery (Manufactured weapons) .75 3
Combat sense 3(while wrestling) 1.125 4.125
Killing hands (wrestling) .375
Elemental strike smoke (wrestling) .375
Elemental strike sonic (wrestling) .375
Elemental strike Light (wrestling) .375 5.625
Counter strike 1(wrestling) .375 6



Money and stuff spent 70-20 contacts points +125000Y+20000 debt
Loyalty 4 connection 1 -10
Loyalty 1 connection 4 Fixer -10



X5 rating 4 fake sins 20000k
-12000 Gaz p-179+31550
Handling accel speed pilot body armor sensor avail
-1 15/30 90 1 14 6 1
Multifuel engine(standard), (amenities Middle, slot 1, cost 100Y), (Anti-theft slot 2 cost 2800), (Armor rating 20 4000Y, slot 1), enhanced image screen slot 1, cost 1400Y, extra entry (sleeper) slot 1, cost 5000, Meta human adjustment troll x3 passengers slot 1, cost 1500, Ram Plate slot 1, cost 3500, search light cost 1200, slot 1 Winch cost 500 Y, slot 1

Gear
Steampunk line 7/7 2475Y Troll
Form Fit body 6/2 1760Y Troll
Camo+ppp 10/12 2420Y Troll

Form fit 6/2 6500Y Bear rating 6 thermal damp 3k, fire res 6 600, insulation 6, +900
Cham+ppp 8/10 17600 Bear non conduct 6 , 1200, Radiation shielding 6 1200, rating 4 ultra wideband radar 2000, camera neutralizer 6 1500, NLJD 6 600
58205 total

Fairlight Caliban 8k
Novatech Navi 1.5k
Ab gloves 250
Sat link 500
Skinlink 50
Sub vocal micro 50
Holo projector 200
White noise generator 6 300
Mapsoft 6 30
Map soft 6 30
Map soft 6 30
Tag eraser 150
Rating 4 fake license x5 2000

Lifestyles points qualities + Qualities -
Medium 5000 15 3/2/2/2/0 Escape tunnel+3, hasty exit+2, perfect roommate+2, sprite
Magnet -1, rough neighborhood -1, no privacy-1

Squatter 500 5 2/1/1/1/0 Crash Pad -1,lax security-2,Green plan-1,
Squatter 500 5 2/1/1/1/0 Crash Pad-1, Lax security-2 Green Plan-1,
Squatter 500 5 2/1/1/1/0 Crash Pad-1, Lax security-2 Green plan-1,
high 10000 20 4/4/3/3/0 Inconspicuous housing (physical+matrix)+4, security conics +2, well made +1, Workplace+1, Privacy screen 3 astral, Privacy screen 2 physical,
Green plan-1, Haunted -4, pest magnet, -1, worse neighbors -1, rough neighborhood -1,


Important combat stuff

Ball bearing range
Short med long extreme damage acc AP
36 72 108 180 10P 10

Punch
Type Damage acc AP
Normal 14p 10 -3
Smoking 14s(tox) 10 none+-3
Pulsing 14s+ 10 none+-3
Shining 14p+ 10 half -3

[Omenowl]

I think the math is off.

I think you are miscalculating the adept power cost.

Is the karma cost correct for skills and the adept quality?

Aren't your stats limited to 580 (half of total karma + metatype/sapient) assuming 1000 base karma? What karma is the GM allowing because if it is a base 750 then you will have to do some tweaking?

[Omenowl]

It's a lot of assumption that the whole group and the GM are all enjoying that, but sure, in that specific case. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You are arguing to argue. The reality is every group should be determining what is fun for everyone. The GM should try to accommodate the players and different play styles. In most cases star/spotlight time usually matters more than raw power. If each of the players get involved and they feel their characters are essential to the story they tend to be happier and enjoy said game.

In our CEO example. Maybe it took them all game session to track the CEO down. Maybe they caught him flat footed before he could escape. Maybe they had to use their contacts and break into a whole different facility to get to that point. Maybe long term they find out it was a decoy and it was used to flush out his trackers. This is Shadowrun where the characters are pawns in a bigger game. What keeps it interesting what is going on behind the scenes that caused the shadowrun in the first place. If a GM is smart he will have so many open ends the players will create their own adventures well behind the initial shadowrun. Our troll is not a hacker, nor is he a face.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm just saying that broken, overpowered characters are a universally-understood problem for RPGs. You're the one who described a god-character ending a session in 20 minutes. No one is saying there's no room for tanks, or powerful characters, or anything like that.

[Graptharr]

I think the math is off.

I think you are miscalculating the adept power cost.

Is the karma cost correct for skills and the adept quality?

Aren't your stats limited to 580 (half of total karma + metatype/sapient) assuming 1000 base karma? What karma is the GM allowing because if it is a base 750 then you will have to do some tweaking?

i have geas on all of my adept powers, which reduce there cost by 25% at the expensase of working only with the situations i laid out for them.

the cost of a bear shapeshifter who shapeshifts into a formori is 115bp, so the maximum 750 or am i missign some important info here?

[Omenowl]

I'm just saying that broken, overpowered characters are a universally-understood problem for RPGs. You're the one who described a god-character ending a session in 20 minutes. No one is saying there's no room for tanks, or powerful characters, or anything like that.

I did not give scenario that the player could walk through. The example given was a poorly defended CEO on a wetwork mission and how the GM felt was no fun to have someone that could walk through the opposition. I merely countered that it depends on the mission, goals and desires of the players to determine how it could be fun.I think we can all point to movies that did that as well Leon, Le Femme Nikita. They also don't pay enough money to retire on. It is the big score with associated costs that count. Still for players just learning the game easy runs with increasing difficulty is good. A good example of where the 20 minute run works is when players are just learning the system.


There also seems to be the idea that if the scenario is accomplished the game is done. Last I checked we played until it was a good wrapping up point and if all sides wanted more then we kept playing. If it is multiple 1 hour runs in a night that is cool. If it is a 6 hour run in a night that is good. As long as everyone has fun no one cares.

I don't find this character broken or overpowered any more so than a drone rigger, mage or sniper. They just kill differently and in some cases much more lethally.

[Omenowl]

i have geas on all of my adept powers, which reduce there cost by 25% at the expensase of working only with the situations i laid out for them.

the cost of a bear shapeshifter who shapeshifts into a formori is 115bp, so the maximum 750 or am i missign some important info here?

Adept should cost 10 karma not 20 karma.

You are starting with an advanced shadowrunner with 1000 karma rather than a typical shadowrunner of 750 karma. Is this valid with your GM?

Your attributes should be limited to half starting karma plus 230 karma for being a formori bear shapeshifter.

Also surge III requires you to pick a theme (rock man, plant man, etc) for your changeling. I don't see a theme for said character.

[Yerameyahu]

Silly, the theme is 'as powerful as possible'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Omenowl]

Silly, the theme is 'as powerful as possible'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Then add something useful to the discussion.

A) Show why this character is overpowered
B) A different concept that is powerful
C) Help the original poster on his character build
D) How you would handle it as a GM?

[Yerameyahu]

E) Enjoy discussing, kthx.

In point of fact, I didn't say it was overpowered; I implied that there wasn't a theme. Neither did I say I didn't like the build, or liked the build, for that matter. I didn't realize it was a requirement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Since you ask, though, if I were the GM, I would ask some questions about a Bear/Troll, Bear FFBA, and Illiterate-with-top-flight-electronics. None of them are dealbreakers, but you'd want to really understand where the player's going with this. I'm sure Graptharr would justify/explain everything, and we'd be on our way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

High Strength ain't a game-breaker in a game where everybody and their mother is supposedly able to get his hands on a LAW or bigger Rocket/Missle-Launcher . .
In most cases where you brute strength might help you, something else is more or less sure to be better than that anyway . .
And it does not help with ANYTHING aside of throwing stuff and close combat . . And even there you can get more Damage without high STR in SR4 . .

[Yerameyahu]

I like the optional STR-to-RC rule in Arsenal because it does make strength slightly more useful.

[Stahlseele]

Still only up to a STR Rating of 18 . . you could expand it to 24 though . .

[Yerameyahu]

Ha, well, I assume they didn't want to encourage anyway to try. It's a simple progression, so just add that next +1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Jesus, HULK SMASH.

[Stahlseele]

*Nods*
Maximum STR i ever got into a Troll was 18 i think . .
But this is SR3 i am talking about . . And there simply was not enough Ware to get more than 5 Points of STR above your natural limit <.<

[MikeKozar]

You are arguing to argue. The reality is every group should be determining what is fun for everyone. The GM should try to accommodate the players and different play styles. In most cases star/spotlight time usually matters more than raw power. If each of the players get involved and they feel their characters are essential to the story they tend to be happier and enjoy said game.

In our CEO example. Maybe it took them all game session to track the CEO down. Maybe they caught him flat footed before he could escape. Maybe they had to use their contacts and break into a whole different facility to get to that point. Maybe long term they find out it was a decoy and it was used to flush out his trackers. This is Shadowrun where the characters are pawns in a bigger game. What keeps it interesting what is going on behind the scenes that caused the shadowrun in the first place. If a GM is smart he will have so many open ends the players will create their own adventures well behind the initial shadowrun. Our troll is not a hacker, nor is he a face.

You have a very confrontational tone, Omenowl. It sounds like you are telling other posters how and why they are wrong, which makes people very defensive. If you acknowledge the worth of other poster's opinions, your discussions will be more productive and less flamewar.

On the subject, I find it interesting that here you are discussing all the ways that the game could be made more interesting by challenging the overpowered character with potential target escapes, information gathering jobs, decoys and Machiavellian intrigues. That's one Hell of a milkrun you're planning, omae. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Omenowl]

You have a very confrontational tone, Omenowl. It sounds like you are telling other posters how and why they are wrong, which makes people very defensive. If you acknowledge the worth of other poster's opinions, your discussions will be more productive and less flamewar.

On the subject, I find it interesting that here you are discussing all the ways that the game could be made more interesting by challenging the overpowered character with potential target escapes, information gathering jobs, decoys and Machiavellian intrigues. That's one Hell of a milkrun you're planning, omae. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yeah, I can be confrontational especially when I feel the topic is not being addressed. In this case how a game can be fun.

The scenario was by an different poster I merely ran with it. If you want to go into an even more in depth literary technique then have the players switch between two different groups (each player has 2 characters, but only 1 per group). One that killed said CEO and the other that investigates why the CEO was killed. Not sure how to handle when the two groups meet/clash, but it does allow players to feel there characters are part of something bigger and allows them to find it out.