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Graptharr
basically the idea for this guy, is a latent Dracomorphosis Massively Str focused guy, who transforms into a Oriental drake to use a pair of Minigunníd HMG's to decimate everything insight.. And use the advantage of his 18 STR to maul the ever loving crap out of everything he canít blast to smithereens with his miniguns.

I donít want to start with a Cyclops, because the 1 eye thing really makes for a dick all gun fighters, and I hate that.
I would rather start as either a formori or a minotaur, but Iím not sure what the best route is.

Then after going with the latent Dracomorphosis, ill take the adept quality and basically be a crazy self improving mega gun wielding dragon.

Or is this idea just destined to fail at the utmost level? Or would he being a magician be a better idea? Being a Draco means that ware is out since I lose it in dragon form, unless I want to sit down and design a dunklezan winning ware that can be used by Shapeshifter


anyone able to offer me some advice for this?
MikeKozar
Okay, that's kind of insane, but just for the sake of argument...

I don't think he's got enough strength to fire a minigun effectively. I think the rule is on Arsenal, p163: Strength 18+ is 4 points of recoil compensation. A Minigun burst is worth 15 points of recoil, so you would still need a pretty huge pool to fire one from the hip.
Omenowl
Why not pick shapeshifter Bear with a metatype minotaur, changeling adept? Get metagenic improvement (strength) for the changeling with beserker for the flaw. and finally exceptional attribute.

When you add everything up you get a base 15 strength maximum with augmented maximum of 22. If you want to be really cheesy then pick power throw and missile mastery with attribute increase strength. You will be throwing cards, change, pens and baseballs like assault cannon rounds through vehicles.
Graptharr
does it work like that?

so without fudging around with the stats how wolul that effect my troll form then?
would it be that i have even more stats in my troll form?

so it woudl cost me 110 bp to be a troll ascpect bear shapeshifter? do i add my trolls natural str to my startign stas when i go in bear form or troll form?
Martin_DeVries_Institute
Err, actually. It doesn't work like that. Shifters can only have a human form, not metahuman. I personally would not allow a shifter PC to also be a changeling, but that's me. There doesn't seem to be anything in RAW that prohibits it.
Also, keep in mind that shifters are animals that can become human, not humans who become animals. So even if your bear could become a troll--which he can't--he probably would not be interested in learning how to fire a minigun.
iategod
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jun 29 2010, 11:01 PM) *
Why not pick shapeshifter Bear with a metatype minotaur, changeling adept? Get metagenic improvement (strength) for the changeling with beserker for the flaw. and finally exceptional attribute.

When you add everything up you get a base 15 strength maximum with augmented maximum of 22. If you want to be really cheesy then pick power throw and missile mastery with attribute increase strength. You will be throwing cards, change, pens and baseballs like assault cannon rounds through vehicles.



Why bother with missile mastery??

it just adds +1 damage to throwing anything.... doesn't mean without the power you can't throw a brick. 1 point for for +1dv isn't worth it if you ask me.

The OP could just get a customize cyber limb, with a str of 18 or more. go to the forum search and look for a thread titled "Chris Hurley-combat biker"
Omenowl
QUOTE (Martin_DeVries_Institute @ Jun 29 2010, 05:37 PM) *
Err, actually. It doesn't work like that. Shifters can only have a human form, not metahuman. I personally would not allow a shifter PC to also be a changeling, but that's me. There doesn't seem to be anything in RAW that prohibits it.
Also, keep in mind that shifters are animals that can become human, not humans who become animals. So even if your bear could become a troll--which he can't--he probably would not be interested in learning how to fire a minigun.



There is the option for a player to get a metahuman or variant for -10BP of the normal cost of the metavariant in addition to the cost of the shapeshifter. Hence the minotaur. Basically all you get are the special abilities without any stat adjustment. That said metagenic improvement is part of the abilities for fomori, cyclops and minotaurs. The extra reach is nice as well so you get +2 reach as it would add onto the bear. In your case it won't make much difference if you pick a troll or human base for your shapechanger. Human would be cheaper, but if you want the extra reach, body and goring horns it maybe worth it.

Changelings can be anything from animal to metahuman/metavariant. So by RAW it is fine to have a changeling shapeshifter.

There is nothing that states shapeshifters lack any kind of training unless the player picks a negative quality limiting his ability to learn how to fire weapons.

Like everything else it must be run through your GM to see if it is allowed.

Omenowl
QUOTE (iategod @ Jun 29 2010, 05:46 PM) *
Why bother with missile mastery??

it just adds +1 damage to throwing anything.... doesn't mean without the power you can't throw a brick. 1 point for for +1dv isn't worth it if you ask me.

The OP could just get a customize cyber limb, with a str of 18 or more. go to the forum search and look for a thread titled "Chris Hurley-combat biker"


Missile mastery allows you to use improvised objects to throw to damage. Siad character is always armed from simple quarters to pens. I definitely don't want to be on the receiving end of a character who decides to throw grenades as missile weapons. 14P from the basic damage and then it would explode on the next initiative phase would suck. The character becomes his own mini cannon with ranges exceeding that of a heavy crossbow.

As for the cost you are looking at 1 point for missile mastery and 0.75 points on power throw level 3 for increasing the effective strength of the user by 6 points. From there you would have to take attribute boost or augmentation to exceed the natural maximum. You won't reach the theoritical level of 22 for a long time, but it would still be cool.

As for the customized cyberlimb you still can't exceed the augmented value and the customized only matches your actual attributes. Anything above that takes capacity. Maybe a troll ghoul would get you close with a 21str rather than a 22 for the bear shapeshifter.
Yerameyahu
You can't 'minigun' a HMG. Someone (and not likely you) can design and manufacture a HMG minigun. In fact, they did: it's the Vigilant Light Autocannon (basically), and it can't be mounted even on small vehicles, let alone dual-wielded by a metahuman, drake form or not. smile.gif
Martin_DeVries_Institute
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jun 29 2010, 06:39 PM) *
There is the option for a player to get a metahuman or variant for -10BP of the normal cost of the metavariant in addition to the cost of the shapeshifter.

Ah, excellent. Thank you for correcting me. I must have missed that when I was (admittedly) skimming the rules.

QUOTE
There is nothing that states shapeshifters lack any kind of training unless the player picks a negative quality limiting his ability to learn how to fire weapons.

Hence my saying "probably." smile.gif It's true that there's nothing in RAW to prohibit it. It would just be seem unlikely.

QUOTE
Like everything else it must be run through your GM to see if it is allowed.

And I certainly wouldn't allow it. But that's me. YMMV.
MikeKozar
...and I have to wonder what the opposition to this character would look like. The GM is pretty much obligated to one-up you, so you're going to be stuck in a Daikaiju campaign until you retire this guy.
Critias
If that's your idea of a good time, more power to ya.
Wasabi
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jun 29 2010, 09:39 PM) *
There is the option for a player to get a metahuman or variant for -10BP of the normal cost of the metavariant in addition to the cost of the shapeshifter.


I have the sudden urge to make a shapeshifter pixie...

wink.gif
toturi
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jun 30 2010, 03:38 PM) *
...and I have to wonder what the opposition to this character would look like. The GM is pretty much obligated to one-up you, so you're going to be stuck in a Daikaiju campaign until you retire this guy.

I wonder why the GM is pretty much obligated to one-up a player or a player character? If my player wants his character to be the strongest person around, I think I would rather let him be unless he chooses to go up against something like a dragon.
Critias
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 30 2010, 06:08 AM) *
I wonder why the GM is pretty much obligated to one-up a player or a player character? If my player wants his character to be the strongest person around, I think I would rather let him be unless he chooses to go up against something like a dragon.

...of course, going up against something like a dragon is a distinct possibility, when one's playing a drake. grinbig.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jun 29 2010, 05:01 PM) *
When you add everything up you get a base 15 strength maximum with augmented maximum of 22. If you want to be really cheesy then pick power throw and missile mastery with attribute increase strength. You will be throwing cards, change, pens and baseballs like assault cannon rounds through vehicles.


Augmented Maximum doesn't...really...apply to Shapeshifters unless they're using Increase Attribute. Cyber on shifters is a bad idea.

(Latent Drake is also a terrible idea. You have to pay 120 Karma later. After...some...indeterminate point...when the GM lets you.
Stahlseele
So does this mean. a shape-shifter can get a human and a metahuman variant changeling alternate form?
And do you have to change between human>animal>other alternate, or can you shift from human to other alternate just like that?
This would mean, you really can HULK OUT now O.o
Going from a small unseeming human to OMGWTF 3M TALL BRIGHT GREEN MUSCLE MONSTER!
And with a Pixie going from 0,5m to 3m this would get pretty silly . .
"Mass displacement, the Energy expenditure must be tremendous!"
Draco18s
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 10 2010, 06:13 PM) *
So does this mean. a shape-shifter can get a human and a metahuman variant changeling alternate form?
And do you have to change between human>animal>other alternate, or can you shift from human to other alternate just like that?


No.

It's Animal and Metahuman. If you get a varient or changeling qualities, you still only have TWO forms. Animal and your other one.
Stahlseele
Ah pity ._.
MikeKozar
QUOTE (toturi @ Jun 30 2010, 03:08 AM) *
I wonder why the GM is pretty much obligated to one-up a player or a player character? If my player wants his character to be the strongest person around, I think I would rather let him be unless he chooses to go up against something like a dragon.


Is that sarcasm?

Let me paint the scene for you. You are [overengineered combat monster from Dumpshock]. You are offered money to kill a guy. You arrive, and decide not to bother with sneaking - you walk in the front door. The rent-a-cops, when they hit you at all, are packing low-power weapons that bounce harmlessly off your soak pool. You kill eleven men in the lobby, six men in the hallway, four men and a CEO in the penthouse. None of them deal damage. You leave.

How long will that be fun? Every Superman needs his Kryptonite, or there is no story. As a GM, I am here to give you an adventure, a story. If there is no risk, no challenge, then there can be no victory, no glory. It is my *job* to one-up you and make you work for your win. Otherwise, you haven't really won a damn thing.
Stahlseele
Thats what magic and chem-tech are there for.
But this is more about brute strength instead of toughness.
And weapons like electro-shocks, fire, water, sound and blast.
All of which halve of completely negate any armour the character is wearing.
But this is really about dealing damage, not about soaking it.
toturi
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jul 11 2010, 07:46 AM) *
Is that sarcasm?

Let me paint the scene for you. You are [overengineered combat monster from Dumpshock]. You are offered money to kill a guy. You arrive, and decide not to bother with sneaking - you walk in the front door. The rent-a-cops, when they hit you at all, are packing low-power weapons that bounce harmlessly off your soak pool. You kill eleven men in the lobby, six men in the hallway, four men and a CEO in the penthouse. None of them deal damage. You leave.

How long will that be fun? Every Superman needs his Kryptonite, or there is no story. As a GM, I am here to give you an adventure, a story. If there is no risk, no challenge, then there can be no victory, no glory. It is my *job* to one-up you and make you work for your win. Otherwise, you haven't really won a damn thing.

No. It is not.

How long will that be fun? For as long as it can, which can be quite a while. Batman always wins, that's the story. As a GM, you are supposed to make the game fun, even if your PC is Batman. There is always a risk, no matter how small, there can always be victory, sometimes people don't want glory. It is my job as a GM to make it fun, to challenge you but I do not need to "one-up" your character to do that. If you want me to one-up you, then I will. Otherwise I won't because it is not fun, you can't win a damn thing if you lose.
Omenowl
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jul 10 2010, 05:46 PM) *
Is that sarcasm?

Let me paint the scene for you. You are [overengineered combat monster from Dumpshock]. You are offered money to kill a guy. You arrive, and decide not to bother with sneaking - you walk in the front door. The rent-a-cops, when they hit you at all, are packing low-power weapons that bounce harmlessly off your soak pool. You kill eleven men in the lobby, six men in the hallway, four men and a CEO in the penthouse. None of them deal damage. You leave.

How long will that be fun? Every Superman needs his Kryptonite, or there is no story. As a GM, I am here to give you an adventure, a story. If there is no risk, no challenge, then there can be no victory, no glory. It is my *job* to one-up you and make you work for your win. Otherwise, you haven't really won a damn thing.


No, it is your job to make an internally consistent world that makes the players want to be in your world. If the players are having fun then you have done your job as a GM. If this means the CEO is of a small company with few guards and the walk in with few problems then that is not a problem. It might be a 20 minute session, but okay. It is also nice to make milkruns for the players so they don't always feel no matter what they do the missions fail. I am not saying every mission goes that way, but it is nice that not everything goes to hell in a handbasket when you go out for dinner.

As a GM I don't need to one up players. The defenses are what the defenses are along with contingency plans. If the players plan, adapt, recon, and outgun or outthink the opponents it will be an easy run. If they get complacent or don't adapt it could be a very short run.
Yerameyahu
Ö And a very short run is a boring waste of time. It's like a zerg rush in Starcraft: win or lose, you just wasted 15 minutes.

You always challenge the players. There's a big difference between executing a great plan, and BoringTroll. smile.gif
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 11 2010, 01:14 AM) *
Ö And a very short run is a boring waste of time. It's like a zerg rush in Starcraft: win or lose, you just wasted 15 minutes.

You always challenge the players. There's a big difference between executing a great plan, and BoringTroll. smile.gif


Yes and challenging means there is more complexity than killing a guy. I have no problems with players carrying more firepower or having higher skills than their opponents. Challenges include environmental, mental, social, etc. A good mystery always helps.

The example given for the CEO is no different than the opening scene to Leon. It isn't 20 minutes of wasted time it is 20 minutes spent getting the story going and earning some cash. It is what you do with the rest of the session that matters. My view of shadowrunners more closely fits with Ghost in the Shell and the challenges are placed accordingly.
Yerameyahu
Aha, got you! You said, "It might be a 20 minute session, but okay." So there is no 'rest of the session'. wink.gif

Again, there's a difference between 'better than the NPCs' and 'game is now broken'. I don't think anyone's saying to kill the PCs.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 11 2010, 05:57 AM) *
Aha, got you! You said, "It might be a 20 minute session, but okay." So there is no 'rest of the session'. wink.gif

Again, there's a difference between 'better than the NPCs' and 'game is now broken'. I don't think anyone's saying to kill the PCs.

So you have a second session afterwards. I don't see how the end of one adventure automatically excludes a second one. It is just like when you play a LAN game with your friends you take a break and if everyone is ready for more you play some more.
Yerameyahu
Not if one of them is godmoding. wink.gif
Critias
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jul 10 2010, 06:46 PM) *
Is that sarcasm?

Let me paint the scene for you. You are [overengineered combat monster from Dumpshock]. You are offered money to kill a guy. You arrive, and decide not to bother with sneaking - you walk in the front door. The rent-a-cops, when they hit you at all, are packing low-power weapons that bounce harmlessly off your soak pool. You kill eleven men in the lobby, six men in the hallway, four men and a CEO in the penthouse. None of them deal damage. You leave.

How long will that be fun?

I don't know...ask the players. Are they having fun? If so, things are going pretty well, huh?

QUOTE
Every Superman needs his Kryptonite, or there is no story. As a GM, I am here to give you an adventure, a story. If there is no risk, no challenge, then there can be no victory, no glory. It is my *job* to one-up you and make you work for your win. Otherwise, you haven't really won a damn thing.

It's not your job to one-up anyone. It's your job to (a) have fun, and (b) help your players have fun. If they like stomping all over everything in their path and are having a blast just flinging dice around and describing their actions, then "risk" and "challenge" are overrated. It's not about having "won" a damn thing, it's about having a good time.

Not everyone games the same way. No one is right or wrong here. If a silly powerful character with a 20+ strength is what the dude wants to play, and if it's what the GM is okay with running, and it's what the other folks at the game table are into...what's the harm?
Yerameyahu
It's a lot of assumption that the whole group and the GM are all enjoying that, but sure, in that specific case. smile.gif
Graptharr
kk the build is mostly finished
here is an ugly cut and paste to see how you guys rate it

As a descendant of the original bear who was an inspiration for Winnie the poo, I lead a decent life in the circus. Then I awakened and was aware of myself. Soon afterwards I understood that I had to leave. And so I did, but not before raiding the proverbial honey jar and leaving



Bear Shapeshifting Formori 115

Qualities
(Surge 3 -30)
(Metagenetic improvement (STR -40)
(Celerity -10)
(Elongated limbs -10)
(Extravagant eyes Silver +10)
(Striking skin pigment Flame Red +10)
(Vestigial tail +10)
Adept -20
Martial arts (Wrestling) Throw, Ground, +1 -10
Martial arts (Wrestling) Kick, Finish, +1 dv -10
Enemy con 1/loyal 2/ Inc 2 +10
Illiterate +20
Debt 20 +40
1000 730
-25 +2 agi 25
-45 +3 rea 70
-45 +3 cha 115
-45 +3 wil 160
-25 +3 int 185
-25 +2 log 210
-95 +5 mag 330
-70 +4 edge 375
-210 +4 STR 585
-95 +2 body 680

Stats
Bod 10
Agi 3
Rea 4
STR 12
Cha 4
Int 4
Log 3
Wil 4
Ini 7
Magic 6
Edge 5

Remaining karma 330 for cash+ skills
-20 Influence skill groups +2
-32 +5 unarmed
-32 +5 thrown
-2 Unarmed (Wrestling)
-2 Thrown (Overhand)
-14 automotive mechanics +3
- 14 Pilot Ground craft+3
-20 Athletics +2
-22 Dodge +4
-2 Dodge (ranged
-20 Outdoors +2
-20 Stealth +
-8 Japanese +2
-8 Russian +2
-14 Perception +3
-8 (City) Shapeshifter Hideouts
-8 (City) Fixers
-8 (city) Humanis policlub activities
-4 artisan
-2 artisan (wood sculptures)
English native language
Skills spent 260

Influence +2
Unarmed 5 (wrestling+2)
Throwing (Overhand+2)
Automotive mechanic +3
Pilot Ground Craft +3
Dodge +4(ranged+2)
Artisan 1 (wood scultupers+2)
Athletics +2
Outdoors +2
Perception +3
Stealth +2
Language (Japanese) +2
Language (Russian) +2
Street (city) Shapeshifter hideouts
Street (city) Fixers
Street (city) Humanis policlub activities


Adept powers
Penetrating strike level 3 (while wrestling) .5625 .5625
Power Throw 3 (Manufactured weapons) .5625 1.125
Critical strike 6 (wrestling) 1.125 2.25
Missal mastery (Manufactured weapons) .75 3
Combat sense 3(while wrestling) 1.125 4.125
Killing hands (wrestling) .375
Elemental strike smoke (wrestling) .375
Elemental strike sonic (wrestling) .375
Elemental strike Light (wrestling) .375 5.625
Counter strike 1(wrestling) .375 6



Money and stuff spent 70-20 contacts points +125000Y+20000 debt
Loyalty 4 connection 1 -10
Loyalty 1 connection 4 Fixer -10



X5 rating 4 fake sins 20000k
-12000 Gaz p-179+31550
Handling accel speed pilot body armor sensor avail
-1 15/30 90 1 14 6 1
Multifuel engine(standard), (amenities Middle, slot 1, cost 100Y), (Anti-theft slot 2 cost 2800), (Armor rating 20 4000Y, slot 1), enhanced image screen slot 1, cost 1400Y, extra entry (sleeper) slot 1, cost 5000, Meta human adjustment troll x3 passengers slot 1, cost 1500, Ram Plate slot 1, cost 3500, search light cost 1200, slot 1 Winch cost 500 Y, slot 1

Gear
Steampunk line 7/7 2475Y Troll
Form Fit body 6/2 1760Y Troll
Camo+ppp 10/12 2420Y Troll

Form fit 6/2 6500Y Bear rating 6 thermal damp 3k, fire res 6 600, insulation 6, +900
Cham+ppp 8/10 17600 Bear non conduct 6 , 1200, Radiation shielding 6 1200, rating 4 ultra wideband radar 2000, camera neutralizer 6 1500, NLJD 6 600
58205 total

Fairlight Caliban 8k
Novatech Navi 1.5k
Ab gloves 250
Sat link 500
Skinlink 50
Sub vocal micro 50
Holo projector 200
White noise generator 6 300
Mapsoft 6 30
Map soft 6 30
Map soft 6 30
Tag eraser 150
Rating 4 fake license x5 2000

Lifestyles points qualities + Qualities -
Medium 5000 15 3/2/2/2/0 Escape tunnel+3, hasty exit+2, perfect roommate+2, sprite
Magnet -1, rough neighborhood -1, no privacy-1

Squatter 500 5 2/1/1/1/0 Crash Pad -1,lax security-2,Green plan-1,
Squatter 500 5 2/1/1/1/0 Crash Pad-1, Lax security-2 Green Plan-1,
Squatter 500 5 2/1/1/1/0 Crash Pad-1, Lax security-2 Green plan-1,
high 10000 20 4/4/3/3/0 Inconspicuous housing (physical+matrix)+4, security conics +2, well made +1, Workplace+1, Privacy screen 3 astral, Privacy screen 2 physical,
Green plan-1, Haunted -4, pest magnet, -1, worse neighbors -1, rough neighborhood -1,


Important combat stuff

Ball bearing range
Short med long extreme damage acc AP
36 72 108 180 10P 10

Punch
Type Damage acc AP
Normal 14p 10 -3
Smoking 14s(tox) 10 none+-3
Pulsing 14s+ 10 none+-3
Shining 14p+ 10 half -3

Omenowl
I think the math is off.

I think you are miscalculating the adept power cost.

Is the karma cost correct for skills and the adept quality?

Aren't your stats limited to 580 (half of total karma + metatype/sapient) assuming 1000 base karma? What karma is the GM allowing because if it is a base 750 then you will have to do some tweaking?
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 11 2010, 06:14 PM) *
It's a lot of assumption that the whole group and the GM are all enjoying that, but sure, in that specific case. smile.gif


You are arguing to argue. The reality is every group should be determining what is fun for everyone. The GM should try to accommodate the players and different play styles. In most cases star/spotlight time usually matters more than raw power. If each of the players get involved and they feel their characters are essential to the story they tend to be happier and enjoy said game.

In our CEO example. Maybe it took them all game session to track the CEO down. Maybe they caught him flat footed before he could escape. Maybe they had to use their contacts and break into a whole different facility to get to that point. Maybe long term they find out it was a decoy and it was used to flush out his trackers. This is Shadowrun where the characters are pawns in a bigger game. What keeps it interesting what is going on behind the scenes that caused the shadowrun in the first place. If a GM is smart he will have so many open ends the players will create their own adventures well behind the initial shadowrun. Our troll is not a hacker, nor is he a face.
Yerameyahu
I'm just saying that broken, overpowered characters are a universally-understood problem for RPGs. You're the one who described a god-character ending a session in 20 minutes. No one is saying there's no room for tanks, or powerful characters, or anything like that.
Graptharr
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jul 11 2010, 07:37 PM) *
I think the math is off.

I think you are miscalculating the adept power cost.

Is the karma cost correct for skills and the adept quality?

Aren't your stats limited to 580 (half of total karma + metatype/sapient) assuming 1000 base karma? What karma is the GM allowing because if it is a base 750 then you will have to do some tweaking?


i have geas on all of my adept powers, which reduce there cost by 25% at the expensase of working only with the situations i laid out for them.

the cost of a bear shapeshifter who shapeshifts into a formori is 115bp, so the maximum 750 or am i missign some important info here?
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 11 2010, 08:12 PM) *
I'm just saying that broken, overpowered characters are a universally-understood problem for RPGs. You're the one who described a god-character ending a session in 20 minutes. No one is saying there's no room for tanks, or powerful characters, or anything like that.


I did not give scenario that the player could walk through. The example given was a poorly defended CEO on a wetwork mission and how the GM felt was no fun to have someone that could walk through the opposition. I merely countered that it depends on the mission, goals and desires of the players to determine how it could be fun.I think we can all point to movies that did that as well Leon, Le Femme Nikita. They also don't pay enough money to retire on. It is the big score with associated costs that count. Still for players just learning the game easy runs with increasing difficulty is good. A good example of where the 20 minute run works is when players are just learning the system.


There also seems to be the idea that if the scenario is accomplished the game is done. Last I checked we played until it was a good wrapping up point and if all sides wanted more then we kept playing. If it is multiple 1 hour runs in a night that is cool. If it is a 6 hour run in a night that is good. As long as everyone has fun no one cares.

I don't find this character broken or overpowered any more so than a drone rigger, mage or sniper. They just kill differently and in some cases much more lethally.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Graptharr @ Jul 11 2010, 08:34 PM) *
i have geas on all of my adept powers, which reduce there cost by 25% at the expensase of working only with the situations i laid out for them.

the cost of a bear shapeshifter who shapeshifts into a formori is 115bp, so the maximum 750 or am i missign some important info here?


Adept should cost 10 karma not 20 karma.

You are starting with an advanced shadowrunner with 1000 karma rather than a typical shadowrunner of 750 karma. Is this valid with your GM?

Your attributes should be limited to half starting karma plus 230 karma for being a formori bear shapeshifter.

Also surge III requires you to pick a theme (rock man, plant man, etc) for your changeling. I don't see a theme for said character.
Yerameyahu
Silly, the theme is 'as powerful as possible'. smile.gif
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 11 2010, 11:10 PM) *
Silly, the theme is 'as powerful as possible'. smile.gif


Then add something useful to the discussion.

A) Show why this character is overpowered
B) A different concept that is powerful
C) Help the original poster on his character build
D) How you would handle it as a GM?
Yerameyahu
E) Enjoy discussing, kthx.

In point of fact, I didn't say it was overpowered; I implied that there wasn't a theme. Neither did I say I didn't like the build, or liked the build, for that matter. I didn't realize it was a requirement. smile.gif

Since you ask, though, if I were the GM, I would ask some questions about a Bear/Troll, Bear FFBA, and Illiterate-with-top-flight-electronics. None of them are dealbreakers, but you'd want to really understand where the player's going with this. I'm sure Graptharr would justify/explain everything, and we'd be on our way. smile.gif
Stahlseele
High Strength ain't a game-breaker in a game where everybody and their mother is supposedly able to get his hands on a LAW or bigger Rocket/Missle-Launcher . .
In most cases where you brute strength might help you, something else is more or less sure to be better than that anyway . .
And it does not help with ANYTHING aside of throwing stuff and close combat . . And even there you can get more Damage without high STR in SR4 . .
Yerameyahu
I like the optional STR-to-RC rule in Arsenal because it does make strength slightly more useful.
Stahlseele
Still only up to a STR Rating of 18 . . you could expand it to 24 though . .
Yerameyahu
Ha, well, I assume they didn't want to encourage anyway to try. It's a simple progression, so just add that next +1. smile.gif Jesus, HULK SMASH.
Stahlseele
*Nods*
Maximum STR i ever got into a Troll was 18 i think . .
But this is SR3 i am talking about . . And there simply was not enough Ware to get more than 5 Points of STR above your natural limit <.<
MikeKozar
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Jul 11 2010, 05:03 PM) *
You are arguing to argue. The reality is every group should be determining what is fun for everyone. The GM should try to accommodate the players and different play styles. In most cases star/spotlight time usually matters more than raw power. If each of the players get involved and they feel their characters are essential to the story they tend to be happier and enjoy said game.

In our CEO example. Maybe it took them all game session to track the CEO down. Maybe they caught him flat footed before he could escape. Maybe they had to use their contacts and break into a whole different facility to get to that point. Maybe long term they find out it was a decoy and it was used to flush out his trackers. This is Shadowrun where the characters are pawns in a bigger game. What keeps it interesting what is going on behind the scenes that caused the shadowrun in the first place. If a GM is smart he will have so many open ends the players will create their own adventures well behind the initial shadowrun. Our troll is not a hacker, nor is he a face.


You have a very confrontational tone, Omenowl. It sounds like you are telling other posters how and why they are wrong, which makes people very defensive. If you acknowledge the worth of other poster's opinions, your discussions will be more productive and less flamewar.

On the subject, I find it interesting that here you are discussing all the ways that the game could be made more interesting by challenging the overpowered character with potential target escapes, information gathering jobs, decoys and Machiavellian intrigues. That's one Hell of a milkrun you're planning, omae. wink.gif
Omenowl
QUOTE (MikeKozar @ Jul 12 2010, 05:14 PM) *
You have a very confrontational tone, Omenowl. It sounds like you are telling other posters how and why they are wrong, which makes people very defensive. If you acknowledge the worth of other poster's opinions, your discussions will be more productive and less flamewar.

On the subject, I find it interesting that here you are discussing all the ways that the game could be made more interesting by challenging the overpowered character with potential target escapes, information gathering jobs, decoys and Machiavellian intrigues. That's one Hell of a milkrun you're planning, omae. wink.gif


Yeah, I can be confrontational especially when I feel the topic is not being addressed. In this case how a game can be fun.

The scenario was by an different poster I merely ran with it. If you want to go into an even more in depth literary technique then have the players switch between two different groups (each player has 2 characters, but only 1 per group). One that killed said CEO and the other that investigates why the CEO was killed. Not sure how to handle when the two groups meet/clash, but it does allow players to feel there characters are part of something bigger and allows them to find it out.
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