The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really. Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Too bad you use failed logic since the start. Why did you decide it is Impact armor ?

The rules you quote speak about "see Hardened Armor above" and Hardened Armor is said to be: "Otherwise, Hardened Armor provides both Ballistic and Impact armor equal to its rating."

Impact Armor was used, because the Weapons/Effects in Question (Fire, Sound, Electricity) use IMPACT ARMOR, not Ballistic Armor, for resolution... Seems pretty simple to me...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

EDIT: OOOps... Double Post... Sorry

Keep the Fiath

[Lucyfersam]

Electricity halves Armor... so Half at Force 11 is 5 Armor, so it takes damage, at Force 12, half Armor is 6, which does not exceed the Armor Rating...

Keep the Faith

ItNW grants 2x Force in armor.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Read my edited post and think about it again. The example *only* makes sense if you roll resistance before the armor comparison.

I have to disagree here... It makes perfect sense as a comparison between the damage inflicted and the ability of the vehicle to autosoak based on the hits it can auto buy. If the damage does not beat the Armnor rating (Before Soak) then ther eis no comparison. If it does, tehn just purchase autosoak successes and apply the remainder to the vewhicle damage track... Damage works the same no matter what you apply it to in SR4A... There are a few caveats (Vehicles do not have stun tracks after all, so if the damage is lower than the armor rating to start, then no reason to worry about it)...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You're going down the same path I did at first... it's interesting to see it reflected back to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But again - think about it - they are talking about a tank. How can it ever be taking 4 boxes of damage? Even if we apply the rules as we think they should work a tank can't be taking 4 DV. That coupled with the fact that rolling Body + Armor is listed as the *first* thing that happens when a vehicle takes damage makes the paragraph pretty clear.

If it doesn't work the way I'm saying, the writers failed miserably because it's intentionally misleading. Obviously nobody has to treat it this way, but my group is going to start to roll it like this and see what happens.

A Tank will take 4 boxes of damae if the DV was higher than the Modified Armor Value, and the Resistance roll reduced the effective DV to 4 after soak... Ergo, 4 Boxes of Damage applied... It really isn't all that difficult...

Keep the Faith

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

ItNW grants 2x Force in armor.

Yeah, apparently you quoted as I was deleting that...

No Worries though...

[Yerameyahu]

Max, it *says* "for example". He's not crazy, therefore, to call it 'an example'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Haha.

[HugeC]

...
We are talking about Immunity Armor, not hardened armor, not regular armor, but Immunity Armor.
...

The passage says Immunity Armor works like Hardened Armor against the thing the critter has Immunity to. There is no exception listed in the passage indicating Armor Penetration doesn't apply, and giving it a slightly different name doesn't change that. If the author wanted AP not to work with Immunity Armor, it would be specified in the rule, and it isn't.

[KarmaInferno]

I have a more... organic approach to "does it bypass ItNW?"

I ask if the attack is based on overwhelming the target with raw elemental power?

Or is it trying to do something funky with biology?

For example tasers work by locking up muscles with a low amperage pulsed charge. Spirits don't have muscles, ergo are unaffected in my games.

Lasers work by applying damaging levels of raw light energy on a target, so they do work. I've also let someone using a lead from a power main to hurt a spirit.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

See, I'd ask, 'is the attack based on magic power?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

See, I'd ask, 'is the attack based on magic power?' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well, if it is based upon Magic Power, then ITNW does not apply... it only applies when the attack is NOT based upon Magic... thus the Hardened Armor Effect.

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

… That's my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… That's my point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Gotcha... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[KarmaInferno]

Classically, elemental force has an effect on the spirit world. Both in mythology and in Shadowrun.

I have no problem with elemental 'essence' (for lack of a better word) being used to strike at a spirit.

I just don't allow technological tomfoolery. Like the aforementioned muscle-locking taser.



-karma

[Yerameyahu]

No, KarmaInferno, it's a good house rule. I don't disagree. It's just not necessarily better than 'magic is different', which is (I argue) the RAW.

[LurkerOutThere]

Classically, elemental force has an effect on the spirit world. Both in mythology and in Shadowrun.

I have no problem with elemental 'essence' (for lack of a better word) being used to strike at a spirit.

I just don't allow technological tomfoolery. Like the aforementioned muscle-locking taser.



-karma

Errr cept the big damn hole in your logic is the whole reason the taser works in the first place is because of the properties of it's elemental attack, it is effectively Zeus bottled lightning bolt in a much more convenient package.

Nothing about tasers makes them rock spirits faces, electrical attacks (as well as fire and acid) do but that's a product of their elemental damage code. Want to not allow the fish flop effect on spirits, that I certainly get (not like any spirit worth a damn would fail it anyway, but all this talk that spirits should be immune to this or that because IT'S MAGIC, is flatly contradicted by setting material.

[Yerameyahu]

Come again?

[svenftw]

A Tank will take 4 boxes of damae if the DV was higher than the Modified Armor Value, and the Resistance roll reduced the effective DV to 4 after soak... Ergo, 4 Boxes of Damage applied... It really isn't all that difficult...

But the text is talking about a tank auto-buying damage resistance hits, not having 4 DV remaining after soak - it can never be taking *4* boxes of damage that it will need to soak. It *is* all that difficult.

[Draco18s]

But the text is talking about a tank auto-buying damage resistance hits, not having 4 DV remaining after soak - it can never be taking *4* boxes of damage that it will need to soak. It *is* all that difficult.

4 DV != 4 Boxes.

4 DV is before soak (and a tank with 4+ armor won't take any damage).
4 Boxes is after soak (which can happen).

[Doc Chase]

Come again?

Even though you can fry a spirit with a house line, a taser doesn't count. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Traul]

But the text is talking about a tank auto-buying damage resistance hits, not having 4 DV remaining after soak - it can never be taking *4* boxes of damage that it will need to soak. It *is* all that difficult.

Yes it can: nowhere in this example do they specify how much Armor the tank has. You plugged that in yourself and found a contradiction because you assumed something that was not written.

[Mordinvan]

As well as flamers and acid willed capsule rounds.

Ya but many of the special ammo forms I just don't see affecting the spirit, you acid capsules for example, the acid is going to react with 'what' exactly?

[Draco18s]

Ya but many of the special ammo forms I just don't see affecting the spirit, you acid capsules for example, the acid is going to react with 'what' exactly?

A materialized spirit still has a physical body.

[LurkerOutThere]

Whatever the spirit manifests as? The spirit actively chooses to manifest and affect the physical world gaining some physical components, i'm not sure why people are so convinced that the spirit is not affected by the physical world in turn because it's magical.

Here's what's always been the problem with spirits, you invest in a magic rating and then some points of magic and then a few points in the summoning and binding skills. Suddenly you can now create an entirely new character with independant skills and traits and what's worth in 4th edition AN EDGE pool, that is completely independant of you, has powers that cannot be duplicated elsewhere and has functionally double armor against mundane means. Of all the skills in the game there is none that are half as versatile as the summoning skill as it opens your options considerably.

THe problem with stick and shock weaponry A) in many cases it actually increases the damage code of the weapon B) It's easily accessible giving people a nearly flawless non lethal weapon. SnS doesn't have anything about it that fire or acid base weapons do (other then the BS -2 modifier) it just provides a non-lethal, easily concealable, and low cost alternative.

People can say that they don't allow stick and shock to work on spirits or ITNW but that's just a bullcrap after the fact justification because finally there is a viable counter to spirits that your average sec guard or runner might have not something supported by the games material.

[DamienKnight]

I'll post the same question here that I did in the other thread:

So by your logic a sonic rifle (which has complete armor penetration) would ignore ITNW?

I would say no. A sonic rifle bypasses normal armor because it passes through it. But spirits dont have normal armor, they have a Magical Immunity to any non-magic attack. This means that their ears have double their force in armor, while a human wearing an armored suit usually does not.

The sonic rifle allows that certain dampers (Ie. earplugs, or a helmet in a closed suit) would provide bonus dice. So sonic damage bypasses all armor that is not on the ears. But spirits immunity affects their entire body.

I would say that sonic attacks have no penetration against natural immunity.

If you really want to allow sonic attacks against spirits, at a minimum give them half their immunity against it.

Also, secondary effects do no apply to Materialized spirits, only to Possession spirits. A Materialized spirit has no nervous system, no stomach, no inner ear wax to destabilize etc, so secondary nausea affects would not harm them. In our game, electricity halves their armor, but it does not apply the addional 2 point penalty.

A possession spirit in a human body DOES have a stomach, nervous system, etc. so they WOULD suffer secondary effects (until they left the body).