The definitive answer to Spirits and Stun Weapons, Really. Options

[Mäx]

So there's not much point on playing anythink other then summoners in missions as spirits make short work of pretty much anythink a security can trowh at them except an other mage and couple of spirits + the mage should beat an npc mage. Who need sammies when you can have spirit that cant be damaged.

[Bull]

That's not even close to the case for Missions, honestly...

For one, magical security tends to be in place a lot of times. For two, bad guys are smart, and use the same types of ammo the players usually use. AP cuts through Immunity pretty easily. Dropping -4 onto a spirits armor, and even a basic heavy pistol has a base Damage code of 5. You can stage that up with hits fairly easily. The only spirits that are even going to likely be an issue for an average goon/sec guard with a heavy pistol is a Force 6+, and that's only if they roll poorly. Throw in some burst or even auto fire, and unless you're pulling out force 8's or better (Damn difficult, even for a focused summoner), Hardened doesn't even become a factor.

I'm playing a mage in my regular Shadowrun game, and I use spirits a lot, and we've had them thrown at us a few times as well. I don't think Immunity has once actually stopped anyone's attacks outright. All it ever does is give the spirit a few points of armor to actually soak an attack, so it doesn't go down in a single hit.

Bull

[Mäx]

That's not even close to the case for Missions, honestly...

For one, magical security tends to be in place a lot of times. For two, bad guys are smart, and use the same types of ammo the players usually use. AP cuts through Immunity pretty easily.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
Whut, you just gave out a ruling that in missions AP has no effect on the immunity.
Meaning you need 13 points of damage to harm a force 6 spirit and you can have multiple of those bound at chargen whit few services each.

[Yerameyahu]

It seems clear from the rest of the paragraph that he *didn't* say that at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[tagz]

No, I think you misread him Max.

He said the Armor is applied, then modified. So Immunity armor at 12 hit with an AP -4 would result in a Immunity armor 8, needing 9DV to hurt.

What I THINK you read was that the Immunity armor is applied, at 12, so you need to do at least 13DV, THEN AP -4 would result in 8 dice for armor soak. This is not what he meant to say (at least I think not from the last statement).

[Mäx]

No, I think you misread him Max.

He said the Armor is applied, then modified. So Immunity armor at 12 hit with an AP -4 would result in a Immunity armor 8, needing 9DV to hurt.

What I THINK you read was that the Immunity armor is applied, at 12, so you need to do at least 13DV, THEN AP -4 would result in 8 dice for armor soak. This is not what he meant to say (at least I think not from the last statement).

So the first post in this topic is right?
Thats good, bulls post just really seemed to be against that.
And your correct on whow you think i read it.

[Bull]

Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Armor Piercing, electric effects, etc all still effect the Spirits armor, but only after it's been doubled for Immunity.

But keep in mind this isn't an official CGL ruling... This is just for Missions, so that we have an even baseline for GMs to run with for Convention and Open Play games. If/when this gets clarified by CGL, we'll adjust to match the official ruling, of course.

[Draco18s]

Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. Armor Piercing, electric effects, etc all still effect the Spirits armor, but only after it's been doubled for Immunity.

Technically, Bull, spirits don't have armor aside from the Immunity.

Throw in some burst or even auto fire, and unless you're pulling out force 8's or better (Damn difficult, even for a focused summoner), Hardened doesn't even become a factor.

A force 4 spirit is no more susceptible to burst fire than a force 10 is. Burst fire doesn't add to the modified DV, it only means that it does more damage after the conversion to stun.

Eg. a DV 6 AP +0 attack with full auto bounces off a F4 spirit just as it does off a F10. 6 is not greater than 8 (or 20).

[Bull]

Technically, Bull, spirits don't have armor aside from the Immunity.

Well, true. I didn't follow all bajillion posts in the thread because, well, kinda boring (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I was just addressing a couple specific points. Either way, we're both right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A force 4 spirit is no more susceptible to burst fire than a force 10 is. Burst fire doesn't add to the modified DV, it only means that it does more damage after the conversion to stun.

Eg. a DV 6 AP +0 attack with full auto bounces off a F4 spirit just as it does off a F10. 6 is not greater than 8 (or 20).

I think you may have misread the Burst Fire rules.

Burst Fire (Narrow Burst, specifically) straight up adds +2 DV (p153 SR4A).

Burst Fire definitely effects damage, regardless of whether it penetrates your armor or not, as you compare the modified DV of the attack against the AP modified armor (page 160 SR4A).

Hardened Armor only "ignores" the damage if the modified DV equal to or lower than the Hardened Armor rating (p 295 SR4A).

So if I fire an Ingram Smartgun (5P) with a Narrow Burst (+2 DV for 7DV total), and I get 3 net hits on the SPirit, I'm punching through 9 or less Hardened armor (So Force 4 or less). If I'm rocking AP ammo in my Smartgun, I'm effectivly punching through 13 points of Hardned Armor (So FOrce 6 or Less).

Bull

[Matsci]

So if I fire an Ingram Smartgun (5P) with a Narrow Burst (+2 DV for 7DV total), and I get 3 net hits on the SPirit, I'm punching through 9 or less Hardened armor (So Force 4 or less). If I'm rocking AP ammo in my Smartgun, I'm effectivly punching through 13 points of Hardned Armor (So FOrce 6 or Less).

Bull

Bull, you are normally better than this...

NARROW BURSTS
Narrow bursts cause more damage to the target. Increase the attack’s DV by +2. Note that this DV modifier does not apply when comparing the DV to the armor rating.

Smartgun X with 3 hits punches through 7 or less armor, not 9...

[tagz]

Yeah, I have to agree with that assessment. If we're treating a spirit's armor as normal for associated rule purposes such as AP, then the rule that automatic fire not modifying DV when comparing to armor rating should also apply.

[Bull]

Huh. Yeah, I TOTALLY missed that. I'm a dumbass. And have been doing it wrong for quite some time. Hrmm...

That makes it a bit more interesting then, doesn't it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

Tymeaus: Where in the rules does it explicitly state that elemental weapons are exempt from ITNW?

the rules are about magical or non magical DV.

the rules don't say "only bullets" or punches.

DV. Magical, non magical.

Magical DV do not deal with the doubled spirit armor rating.

Non magical DV does.

Everything about sonic, electrical, acid etc may be fun to think about in terms of theory of science and magic, but the only thing that matters in the rules is if the DV of those attacks are magical or not.

[LurkerOutThere]

and whether or not their AP applies.


Tada!

[Lansdren]

This is how I see the situation


When a spirit materialises it pulls itself a body together in some way (actual defined mechanics do not exist so claiming what its made of by way of atomic structure is pointless).
Said body being not the same as a flesh and blood entity is more resistant to damage / disruption.

This is defined by the rules as Immunity (or resistance if you prefer) and is modelled by being defined as effectively hardened armour against normal weapons of Fx2. Armour as defined in all occurrences as susceptible to Armour Penetration (AP) By this I mean there is no notation giving the immunity any ability to ignore AP.

The mechanics are such that a especially skilled / gifted individual with a basic weapon could with some luck do some damage on a spirit but this is unlikely

A F4 spirit (not very high but within the capacity for most mages) has the same as Harden Armour 8 against normal weapons and no armour at all against magical attacks. This would require a shot from a baseline heavy pistol with normal ammo to need three net hits (base of 5 plus net of 3 giving modified DV of 8 against modified Armour of 7 (8-1)) to do any damage against which the spirit would still get the armour for its soak roll. More advanced ammo would lower said number of net hits or remove the issue altogether but still allow the armour value to be used for the soak roll.

As with mundane security different ammo can help balance against the power of the defence. Just as you wouldn’t use ex ex against a rentacop in a armoured vest (cost to high in comparison to need) you wouldn’t need it against a very low level spirit but against something more formidable such as a F6 or above spirit there are ammo types that can scale with them. It should be noted that depending on how you play your games when it comes to availability and restricted items getting and keeping the special types of ammo can be more tricky thus making higher level spirits (rare as they themselves might be) harder to handle in the mundane.

but as with all rules they are open to house rulling and GM Fiat

[Mordinvan]

As with mundane security different ammo can help balance against the power of the defence. Just as you wouldn’t use ex ex against a rentacop in a armoured vest (cost to high in comparison to need) you wouldn’t need it against a very low level spirit but against something more formidable such as a F6 or above spirit there are ammo types that can scale with them. It should be noted that depending on how you play your games when it comes to availability and restricted items getting and keeping the special types of ammo can be more tricky thus making higher level spirits (rare as they themselves might be) harder to handle in the mundane.

This is something I have a bit of an issue with. The idea that everyone and their dog has APDS, yet it is somehow rarer then hen's teeth whenever a player goes looking for it. If every security officer has APDS as you suggest, then the bullets would be far less rare because runners would hunt them, just to gain the ammo they carry.

[Tomothy]

Tymaeus: Sorry, I thought you were claiming that elemental attacks were, like magical attacks, completely exempt from ITNW. I totally agree that the armor from ITNW is susceptible to armor penetration.

[Lansdren]

This is something I have a bit of an issue with. The idea that everyone and their dog has APDS, yet it is somehow rarer then hen's teeth whenever a player goes looking for it. If every security officer has APDS as you suggest, then the bullets would be far less rare because runners would hunt them, just to gain the ammo they carry.

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not suggest that everyone has ADPS ammo at any point in my post, if you feel I did can you please quote it for me.

As for my points I feel for low level things normal ammo works perfectly fine. for higher force spirits like higher professional level opposition you have the ability to scale up your ammunition. I pointed out that most people I would hope would use appropriate ammo for the enemy IE normal rounds on a rentacop but something packing more of a punch when against a high threat enemy.

As for availability I do think that power creep can be a problem but on the other hand I would say this. If your attacking a Ares owned site and don’t expect the guards to be packing more then the basic level of heat your being silly. The resources a Corp has in comparison to a runner is massive and sometimes you will find yourself out gunned in some way. But as a counter point the level of danger involved should be balanced against the skills of the team and the actual value of the job at hand.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymaeus: Sorry, I thought you were claiming that elemental attacks were, like magical attacks, completely exempt from ITNW. I totally agree that the armor from ITNW is susceptible to armor penetration.

No Problems Tomothy... I kinda figured out where you were going with this... No offense taken... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Mordinvan]

I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying. I did not suggest that everyone has ADPS ammo at any point in my post, if you feel I did can you please quote it for me.

As for you specifiaclly, you simply mention different ammo types, the 2 most common ones brought up for anti spirit activity are SnS, and APDS. Actually APDS is brought up for almost everything, which is odd considering is harder to get a hold of then it is to replace your spine with a super computer.

As for availability I do think that power creep can be a problem but on the other hand I would say this. If your attacking a Ares owned site and don’t expect the guards to be packing more then the basic level of heat your being silly. The resources a Corp has in comparison to a runner is massive and sometimes you will find yourself out gunned in some way. But as a counter point the level of danger involved should be balanced against the skills of the team and the actual value of the job at hand.

Again, I have to ask, does EVERY guard have them? Cause if so, it would be faster and cheaper to hunt those guards and pick up their ammo, then to put up with all the BS of the black market and buy my own.

"So someone broke in, knocked out every guard, and stole their ammo, then left?" "Yes sir, now if we only knew what they were after, we could start to track them down."

[Darkeus]

Eh, I just always apply the logic of Shadowrun 2nd edition to this debate. Applying this logic, I always rule that it is Hardened armor against physical attacks, half against elemental attacks. Stick n Shock is not an elemental effect. Stick N Shock is a physical bullet that has to IMPLANT before it can discharge. As this is the case, if it does not exceed the Hardened Armor value then it cannot affect the spirit. Those rounds won't penetrate the "armor" of teh spirit in the first place to deliver the shock.

A flamethrower? Now that is an elemental effect! Throwing acid on the manifested spirit? Yeah, that would work. Acid bullets? Bounce right off.

Mundanes get the ol' Force of Will attack. That has worked in Shadowrun for a long time and it works now. There are other ways to smackdown a spirit.

Eh, it really is such a vague topic in Shadowrun. YMMV I suppose should be said.

[Mäx]

A flamethrower? Now that is an elemental effect! Throwing acid on the manifested spirit? Yeah, that would work. Acid bullets? Bounce right off.

Could you please tell me how you see capsule rounds bounching of of anythink.

[Lanlaorn]

The capsules don't break?

[Darkeus]

Could you please tell me how you see capsule rounds bounching of of anythink.

Ever had a paintball bounce off of you? I know I have.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Point is, been poorly written for a while. At least earlier editions tried a little harder. In a way, it would be hard for me to rule against the acid round. Eh, yet it it really makes sense for it not to affect the spirit.

Yeah, not very well written or explained across many editions.

[Lansdren]

As for you specifiaclly, you simply mention different ammo types, the 2 most common ones brought up for anti spirit activity are SnS, and APDS. Actually APDS is brought up for almost everything, which is odd considering is harder to get a hold of then it is to replace your spine with a super computer.


Again, I have to ask, does EVERY guard have them? Cause if so, it would be faster and cheaper to hunt those guards and pick up their ammo, then to put up with all the BS of the black market and buy my own.

"So someone broke in, knocked out every guard, and stole their ammo, then left?" "Yes sir, now if we only knew what they were after, we could start to track them down."

See again I didn't say every guard should carry ADPS. I specifically gave two examples of power level one a basic grunt with no definition of gear, but personally I would have given them normal ammo or maybe gel rounds (if somewhere with possible civilian targets). My second example was if you were to be breaking into a place owned by a weapon manufacturer then you would be silly not to expect something with more kick, for me I would go for Ex or maybe Ex Ex. The ADPS stuff I would save for specialised teams or those expecting to deal with vehicles because that's what its for. If you have a game where everyone and their dog is running round with some ultra hard to get forbidden ammo then that's between you and your GM. Personally I think power creep can get very silly if your not paying attention to it.

Guy behind the counter at a Stuffer Shack to me might be carrying a holdout with normal ammo or maybe flechette maybe even going up to a heavy pistol or a roomsweeper

Basic guard on the front gate of a low risk site might be carrying heavy pistol with gel rounds and a spare clip of normal live ammo for when it gets real.

Threat team inside a high risk site might be carrying assault rifles loaded with Ex Ex and a few smoke / flash grenades.



But then it all depends on what level your playing and how street / Cold Pro your taking it. Personal tastes will differ but I like my games to be plausible.