Deflection and a surprise attack Options

[bamed]

I've got a Mage who's currently sustaining Deflection. I've been surprised and the guy surprising me took a shot at me. My GM says since I'm surprised I can't react and Deflection has no effect. My understanding of Deflection is that it is not a reaction so I can still take it into consideration. So, do I roll my Deflection dice or not?

[Critias]

If your GM says you don't, you don't. Just make a note of it for future encounters (and for bad guys with upkept Deflection spells), and go about your game.

[bamed]

Actually, he didn't out right so I don't, rather he said check on dumpshock.

[LurkerOutThere]

Damn i would never say that it's asking for trouble and it takes entirely too long, I would still go with his call and move on, edge those suprise tests next time.

[bamed]

The games being played on a forum, and will probably take another day before the IP is over, so there's plenty of time. I'm fine with taking his call, the difference is minimal, but I would like to know if there is an official answer here, or are the rules regarding Deflection just so ambiguous that there is not correct answer?

[Yerameyahu]

I'd say it's a passive effect, just like Armor. There's no good reason to say that it's not; kinda of dick move for the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Critias]

Personally, I wouldn't let you roll. Deflection provides a dice pool modifier for defending against ranged attacks. If you don't get to defend against it, you don't get a pool (which is different than getting a pool of 0 dice).

[Yerameyahu]

Do you allow a roll for Cover on a surprise attack? I do. Same thing.

You only get to roll the Cover bonus, or in this case, the Deflection bonus. It's not much, but it's something. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[bamed]

I think I found what I was looking for.

According to the Core Rule book, pg. 155 "This means surprised characters cannot attack those who surprised them, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those characters."

Then pg. 172 of Street Magic describing Deflection, "Every hit scored gives the target a +1 dice pool modifier for defending against ranged physical attacks."

So looks to me like Cristias is right. Surprised characters cannot "defend against" and deflection modifies "defending against." If there's not defending, there's no modifying defending. Deflection does not count with a surprise attack.

Forget I asked.

[LurkerOutThere]

Looks like we have a winner.

[Yerameyahu]

Nah, that's just the word 'defending' having a broad usage. The Cover bonus is for 'defending' as well, and so is armor, for that matter. Unless Deflection makes you dodge better (it doesn't), it should affect an incoming attack.

[DireRadiant]

There are two steps in "Defending". Two dice rolls.

Deflection modifies the one you don't get to roll when surprised.

[Yerameyahu]

How can that be? Is it deflecting the bullets, or is it helping you dodge? The spell description also says "protects the target", not "helps the target actively protect itself when it's aware of attacks".

If you're arguing that 'no defense possible' means *nothing*, then you have to say that Cover doesn't count at all. But, "Note that even stationary or inanimate targets may have a defense dice pool if they have Partial or Good cover." (SR4A, p159). While a stationary target might well be aware of an attack, and therefore gets his Cover pool (and normal dodge, if he stops being stationary (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ), an inanimate one certainly is, by definition, always Surprised; yet, the inanimate target *still* gets a Cover pool. Why, then, should Deflection (the name of which means 'knocking away the bullets') not provide a defense pool in exactly the same manner as Cover?

[LurkerOutThere]

There is what you think the spell should do and what the rules say the spell does. They obviously don't jibe and that's fine but your argument is all but pointless as the rules as quoted above arn't ambiguous at all.

Spells aren't always an automatic win button.

[Dumori]

In my own games I'd have to give the plus to the mage just as I would give him the cover bonus if he had one. House Rule consistency but by RAW no help for you.

[Critias]

Given the description of the spell, I wouldn't hold it against someone that felt an urge to houserule it or anything...but the rules, as written, are pretty clear about what the spell does and doesn't do. If you don't get to defend, having a +1000 die pool modifier doesn't do you any good. Surprised characters, according to the RAW, don't get to defend.

[Yerameyahu]

The spell's description is far from unambiguous here.

In that case, Critias, Cover mods don't apply either. Neither does riding in a moving vehicle. That conclusion is ridiculous. The rule I quoted clearly shows that this is not the case.

[Dumori]

But it is the RAW. That's why I've house ruled against it. If surprised you only roll passive modifiers. Things that in my the GM eys effect the difficulty of the shot but are +s to the defender so to shoot some one on the average day you don't need a dice pool of 20+ so you can hit or not glitch 50% of the time.

[Yerameyahu]

My point is that it's not the RAW. These are passive modifiers, just as you say. The RAW clearly says you get Cover regardless, and 'In Moving Vehicle' and Deflection are just the same.

[Dumori]

No RAW clearly states inaimate objects get cover. But if you fall a surprise test you don't get to roll at all. As dumb as that is in my eyes that's RAW.

[Yerameyahu]

It says 'stationary', like a surprised metahuman. Although, I'd give a running-but-surprised PC the 'Defender Running' passive bonus as well.

[Dumori]

It says 'stationary', like a surprised metahuman. Although, I'd give a running-but-surprised PC the 'Defender Running' passive bonus as well.

So would I....

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. So, in this universe, you get a Cover bonus while stationary, but *not* while running along a wall… unless you're not animate. Oy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Dumori]

In this univesre being able to doge mean that standing behind cover means jack if you don't know your being shot at. Or spiriting makes you just as easy to hit if you caught unaware.

[Yerameyahu]

… unless you're stationary behind that cover! Then you get the cover bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)