I've got a Mage who's currently sustaining Deflection. I've been surprised and the guy surprising me took a shot at me. My GM says since I'm surprised I can't react and Deflection has no effect. My understanding of Deflection is that it is not a reaction so I can still take it into consideration. So, do I roll my Deflection dice or not?

If your GM says you don't, you don't. Just make a note of it for future encounters (and for bad guys with upkept Deflection spells), and go about your game.

Actually, he didn't out right so I don't, rather he said check on dumpshock.

Damn i would never say that it's asking for trouble and it takes entirely too long, I would still go with his call and move on, edge those suprise tests next time.

The games being played on a forum, and will probably take another day before the IP is over, so there's plenty of time. I'm fine with taking his call, the difference is minimal, but I would like to know if there is an official answer here, or are the rules regarding Deflection just so ambiguous that there is not correct answer?

I'd say it's a passive effect, just like Armor. There's no good reason to say that it's not; kinda of dick move for the GM.

Personally, I wouldn't let you roll. Deflection provides a dice pool modifier for defending against ranged attacks. If you don't get to defend against it, you don't get a pool (which is different than getting a pool of 0 dice).

Do you allow a roll for Cover on a surprise attack? I do. Same thing.

You only get to roll the Cover bonus, or in this case, the Deflection bonus. It's not much, but it's something.

I think I found what I was looking for.

According to the Core Rule book, pg. 155 "This means surprised characters cannot attack those who surprised them, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those characters."

Then pg. 172 of Street Magic describing Deflection, "Every hit scored gives the target a +1 dice pool modifier for defending against ranged physical attacks."

So looks to me like Cristias is right. Surprised characters cannot "defend against" and deflection modifies "defending against." If there's not defending, there's no modifying defending. Deflection does not count with a surprise attack.

Forget I asked.

Looks like we have a winner.

Nah, that's just the word 'defending' having a broad usage. The Cover bonus is for 'defending' as well, and so is armor, for that matter. Unless Deflection makes you dodge better (it doesn't), it should affect an incoming attack.

There are two steps in "Defending". Two dice rolls.

Deflection modifies the one you don't get to roll when surprised.

How can that be? Is it deflecting the bullets, or is it helping you dodge? The spell description also says "protects the target", not "helps the target actively protect itself when it's aware of attacks".

If you're arguing that 'no defense possible' means *nothing*, then you have to say that Cover doesn't count at all. But, "Note that even stationary or inanimate targets may have a defense dice pool if they have Partial or Good cover." (SR4A, p159). While a stationary target might well be aware of an attack, and therefore gets his Cover pool (and normal dodge, if he stops being stationary ), an inanimate one certainly is, by definition, always Surprised; yet, the inanimate target *still* gets a Cover pool. Why, then, should Deflection (the name of which means 'knocking away the bullets') not provide a defense pool in exactly the same manner as Cover?

There is what you think the spell should do and what the rules say the spell does. They obviously don't jibe and that's fine but your argument is all but pointless as the rules as quoted above arn't ambiguous at all.

Spells aren't always an automatic win button.

In my own games I'd have to give the plus to the mage just as I would give him the cover bonus if he had one. House Rule consistency but by RAW no help for you.

Given the description of the spell, I wouldn't hold it against someone that felt an urge to houserule it or anything...but the rules, as written, are pretty clear about what the spell does and doesn't do. If you don't get to defend, having a +1000 die pool modifier doesn't do you any good. Surprised characters, according to the RAW, don't get to defend.

The spell's description is far from unambiguous here.

In that case, Critias, Cover mods don't apply either. Neither does riding in a moving vehicle. That conclusion is ridiculous. The rule I quoted clearly shows that this is not the case.

But it is the RAW. That's why I've house ruled against it. If surprised you only roll passive modifiers. Things that in my the GM eys effect the difficulty of the shot but are +s to the defender so to shoot some one on the average day you don't need a dice pool of 20+ so you can hit or not glitch 50% of the time.

My point is that it's not the RAW. These are passive modifiers, just as you say. The RAW clearly says you get Cover regardless, and 'In Moving Vehicle' and Deflection are just the same.

No RAW clearly states inaimate objects get cover. But if you fall a surprise test you don't get to roll at all. As dumb as that is in my eyes that's RAW.

It says 'stationary', like a surprised metahuman. Although, I'd give a running-but-surprised PC the 'Defender Running' passive bonus as well.

So would I....

Hehe. So, in this universe, you get a Cover bonus while stationary, but *not* while running along a wall… unless you're not animate. Oy.

In this univesre being able to doge mean that standing behind cover means jack if you don't know your being shot at. Or spiriting makes you just as easy to hit if you caught unaware.

… unless you're stationary behind that cover! Then you get the cover bonus.

It isn't clear. True enough. But at some point you are going to have to figure out the level of precedence between given rule statements and mechanics.

In isolation the spell description gives a blanket +1 per net hit for Defense.

However the general mechanic for a ranged attack for the defender is 1, a roll to "defend" then 2. a roll to resist damage.
Surprise rules remove the first roll entirely.

Also.
"Regardless of whether they’re being shot at or are locked in a knife
fight, characters usually have a chance of avoiding or defending against
incoming attacks before they connect—unless of course you are surprised
(see Surprise, p. 165). The following section addresses the situational
modifiers that apply in such circumstances.
Note that even stationary or inanimate targets may have a defense
dice pool if they have Partial or Good cover."

You'll note the things having Cover statement is after the "unless you are surprised" for context, and that the it is about stationary and inanimate objects. What's interesting is that a Defense modifier that applies is given as an explicitly stated exception to the defense test modifier rules.

Of course that is immediately followed by a blanket Defender Unaware of Attack rule.
"If the defender is unaware of an incoming attack (he does not see the
attacker, the attacker is behind him, or he is surprised), then no defense
is possible"

Up to you to resolve it, but I give the precedence to the general rule of no defense test unless explicitly allowed. No defense test, no Deflection.

If you're an inanimate object running behind a wall....
....You've got bigger issues than being shot at.

Critical flaw in the arguments. The rules provide for still giving things which get no reaction/defense test a cover bonus when called for. Also, the spell may be cast and sustained on someone who has no idea how to even cast/use the spell and it'll still operate. (so in this case it doesn't matter if the mage is aware of the attack or not, it's fully passive. Combat sense grants an extra 'psychic' sense to the target and works differently).


I'm a mage, I cast deflection on my buddy Sam-I-Am. Sam I am like most chromed bastards has an obsession with placing himself in severe danger and I don't want to be close. So naturally I sustain the spell from the safety of an armored van a half mile away and nowhere in sight.

The Sam does not control the spell in any way. The sam is surprised... the deflection doesn't apply?!


IMO: deflection is a passive spell while maintained which effectively provides a COVER bonus.. (no different than if the sam was standing behind a stone wall for say half-cover.

I'd say that yes it does apply as it's just a passive 'force shield' of sorts which only enhances whatever cover the target has.


On the flipside, combat sense wouldn't apply IMO. As it adds it's dice to the surprise test and the subsequent defense tests (if the surprise check is made).

This is also my interpretation as well... as it makes the most sense... though I can see the Arguments from the other side...

Keep the Faith

My question is why you would be using Deflection instead of Combat Sense?





-karma

Maybe they get bonuses (Mentor, Specialization) for Manipulation Spells and not for Detection Spells?

Keep the Faith

Combat sense adds to both melee and ranged attack defense, it also adds dice to avoid being surprised. But it enhances/adds a psychic sense of sorts (the spells type is psychic, it's sort of a specialized implementation of detect enemies in a way).


Deflection only works against ranged attacks and provides none of the other benefits of combat sense. For those reasons I can't really see nerfing it comparison by denying it's use in surprise test. (the ambusher is surprised the mage has an invisible force shield... and the spells fairly clear it's subtle and most people won't realize it til it's happened a few times).

Also, as a psychic spell... I couldn't conceivably cast combat sense on inanimate items. But I could cast deflection on a drone (with difficulty given OR), or to screw w/ someone... a target in a shooting contest to screw w/ the other guy.

"When defenders are unaware of the attack, they do not get to add their Reaction to a defense roll."

There, I just rewrote it so that it's not stupid anymore.

If a character is being fired upon by a sniper, whom they can't find, then that character can still go freakout on a full dodge trip and thereby make it harder for the sniper to get a bead. However, since he can't watch the sniper react to his movements, Reaction isn't added, as he has nothing to react to.

Hm, well, learn something new every day. For some reason I had it in my head that you had to maintain LOS to the person on whom you're sustaining a spell.

Nope... Not a requirement in the least...

Keep the Faith

Saint Sithney, if they're aware of being fired on, it doesn't matter (in this respect) whether they know where they are. That's already a normal Reaction (+ Dodge, if desired) situation. You can't be aware and unaware at the same time.

My understanding of adding Reaction to ranged attacks is not that you're dodging the bullet itself, but responding to seeing the other guy aim at you... If you can't see the sniper, how do you react to his aim? However, I would think you could "go freakout on a full dodge trip".

However, with that said, I have to bring up my favorite section of SR4: "The Abstract Nature of Rules" p.52

If you're using the Dodge skill, you're rolling Reaction. It's the linked Attribute. So, you're either unaware that you're being attacked at all, or you're getting your full real Dodge pool (either Reaction or Reaction+Dodge+Etc.). This is because after the first bullet hits (that you notice), you're 'Engaged in Combat', and the Unaware penalty can't apply.

QFT...

Keep the Faith

What if the sniper decides to disengage? He rolls his Infiltration and takes a turn to disappear before firing again. There's an Infiltration clause written into a surprise-while-engaged situation, and at half a klick it shouldn't be hard to disappear. Meanwhile the character who was fired upon has no idea where the shot came from and is left sprawling for cover.

I don't see this as being too out of the ordinary.

He disengages then... and the target looks a bit foolish (maybe)... after all, he was just shot at, I think people will give him some leeway...

Keep the Faith

Using the Infiltration skill is just a complex action though.
With a little juice, a sniper could shoot, hide and shoot all in 3 seconds.

If a guy gets caught in the open in that situation, he should still be able to try and dodge, even though he's got no idea where the shots are coming from or when.

You are right, there. There are separate rules for Surprise Within Combat, yes, and they would likely apply. You can *regain* surprise. You don't get it for free.

You need to add or skill.

If you roll Dodge, you roll Reaction. You can roll Reaction without Dodge, but not vice versa. If you're aware of the attack, you get your normal roll; if you're not aware, you only get Cover (and, at my table, Defender Running, Defender in Moving Vehicle, Deflection spell, etc. etc.).

What if you... Gymnastic Dodge?

Mm, I forgot to mention that you can always drop Prone when surprised (if you go by the rules on p165, SR4A), and Prone characters >20m from a ranged attack get Good Cover, which bonus always applies. If you go by the rules on p146 SR4A, however, you *can't* drop prone when surprised. Don't ya just love this game?

So, I guess that makes dropping prone and doing a high crawl/tiger crawl the best response to a sniper who is playing hide and shoot.

But doing so creates a temporal feedback warp, because you simultaneously are and are not allowed to drop prone.



-karma