Deflection and a surprise attack Options

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But doing so creates a temporal feedback warp, because you simultaneously are and are not allowed to drop prone.



-karma

Honestly, If you are surprised by the Sniper, the first indication is when you take a round (you can't even begin to Think about reaction from the surprise until you are surprised by the impact of the round, whether it is in you or the terrain around you)... at that point, you may do what you wish, as the surprise shot has ALREADY Occurred... After All, You can't react to something that has not happened yet, especially if you cannot sense it to start with. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[LurkerOutThere]

I know this may be odd to people, but sniper attacks on unaware targets are often fatal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I know this may be odd to people, but sniper attacks on unaware targets are often fatal.

Indeed they are, except for when they are not... which is why this topic is funny to me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Actually, can't you be surprised by someone and still win initiative? I may certainly be wrong, but I thought I'd read that.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Actually, can't you be surprised by someone and still win initiative? I may certainly be wrong, but I thought I'd read that.

Indeed you can, but you still cannot react to what surprised you... and the Surprise will generally occur BEFORE the Initiative sequence is processed, at least for those that are surprised... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And I will say that in the case of the oft maligned Sniper character, your first inclination that something is wrong will be when the first person goes down... I do not give characters a Surprise test for something that they cannot possibly perceive before the fact... their Surprise Roll in this situatiuon is the first character going down... cCn they react before the next round comes down range? That is the big question...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Right, but you *can* (or maybe can't, depending on which page you read) always drop prone, regardless. You could (or possibly couldn't) just drop prone *before* the shot comes, if you were surprised but won initiative. That's what we're talking about. Another situation is if the moron misses the first shot, but that's not important. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That fact that you can win Surprise against something that you couldn't is just another incredible rules example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, but you *can* (or maybe can't, depending on which page you read) always drop prone, regardless. You could (or possibly couldn't) just drop prone *before* the shot comes, if you were surprised but won initiative. That's what we're talking about. Another situation is if the moron misses the first shot, but that's not important. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That fact that you can win Surprise against something that you couldn't is just another incredible rules example. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I am curious why you would be walking down the street, just minding your own business while you are discussing things with your Contact over AR when all of a sudden, for no apparent reason at all, you just drop prone... WTF? Really? Again, at least in my world, you will be following the above example when all of a sudden someone (possibly even you) gets shot and that is the triggering event that creates the Surprise Test. At that Point... assuming you are not surprised, you may get to act prior to the next incomming shot's arrival (Dropping prone or whatever)... Reaction to Drop Prone, Basic Dodge and Weave (Reaction), or maybe even Full Defense... Unfortunately, If you are surprised, depending upon your view of how surprise is implemented, you might get no action (not even Dropping Prone) as the next shot impacts (or not) it's next target.

Surprise is a very uncomfortable position to be in, regardless of the situation or circumstances. If you allow things like dropping prone (Behind a Car maybe?) to implement defensive procedures agains the Attacker who surprised you, then you are REACTING to the situation, which you are not allowed to do (or are, depending upon which page you follow)...

Now, if you are walking along and you happen to have cover (through no action of your own; the proverbail parked car that you are walking by) and the attack is coming from a direction that would allow the car to provide that cover, then you will get it regardless of whether you can react or not... at least in my game...

This interesting dichtomoy is why the use of Snipers is a hottly contested option. If you cannot react to the Sniper because you do not know that he is targeting you, and no shots have previously arrived, then it is almost a forgone conclusion in Shadowrun that you will have a very dead character, or one that will be so shortly because of overflow bleed out... Snipers are very powerful in such a scenario, and it is not always fair to the players if they are employed in situations that are logical for their use.

A properly executed ambush will almost universally eliminate the target of that ambush. The question is whether that is fair in game or not? I would say that it COULD be fair, dependant upon circumstances, but those circumstances should not be always available...

Anyways... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[LurkerOutThere]

I have no issue with TJ's way of running things although I agree it's not strictly by raw to my recollection

The caveat is this is the way it works universally, in SR like in RL it's better to be the ambusher then the ambushee.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I have no issue with TJ's way of running things although I agree it's not strictly by raw to my recollection

The caveat is this is the way it works universally, in SR like in RL it's better to be the ambusher then the ambushee.

Thanks Lurker... Here is a bit more of my perspective...

With Close Ambushes, you may be caught surprised, and you may not, you may indeed notice something "Off" about the situation prior to the Ambush's initiation. In my opinion, this is how it works out almost universally, both in real life and in the Game. And this should be the most common type of Surprise situation in the game.

Then there are Sniper Situations. Unfortunately, for characters in game (and the real world as well), it is impossible for the target of a Long Range Sniper shot to notice anything before the first shot takes place. Especially in an Urban environment, there is just too much input to take in and a hidden attacker at 800+ meters just cannot be ferreted out from the rest of the stimulus out there (and in game, 800+ Meters is very, very doable indeed)... In a combat environment, you have much the same situation. Note that you may indeed locate the Sniper after several shots, and it is for this very reason that highly trained Snipers are trained to take a shot, or 2, and then move to minimize this potential. In this circumstance, You will never see it coming. Which is why I think that using this tactic a lot is unfair to the players and their characters. The only thing keeping a character alive at that point, is if the Attacker flubbs the shot and misses, which will alert the target that something out there is not right.

There are 4 Scenarios that I can see for the Target's survival in this instance.

The Attacker hits and the Defender Burns Edge to survive...
The Attacker Misses and then Bugs out because his target has now been alerted that he is a target for removal...
The Attacker Misses and the Defender Manages to obtain Cover, and a Cat and Mouse game ensues where the Attacker is eventually eliminated... OR
The Attacker Misses and the Defender obtains cover and manages to extend and escape...

In my opinion, it is a dick move by the GM if the Sniper Situation continuously keeps coming up... there are other alternatives to the almost 100% guaranteed take down (Even if the target spends Edge to Survive it) that the Sniping Situation creates. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Keep the Faith

[LurkerOutThere]

I agree with you again. Sniper shoot offs come up on occasion in my game as do sniper ambushes, in part because the team has a street sam who puts a lot of emphasis into sniping and sniper tactics and likes to overwatch on runs with his rifle.

For plot signifigant folks (PC's, prime runners) I tend to give them a contested perception roll as the first shot is taken. giving the target a chance however slight to catch the glint off a rifle barrel or just feel the hairs on the back of their neck rise and hit the dirt. It strikes a good balance between realism/lethality and some of the cheapness on all sides.

Also as TJ mentioned real snipers don't set themself up for stand up fights or return fire situations, on the off chance they did miss or just take all the shots they could comfortably make they'll likely disengage completely or "shoot and scoot, shoot and scoot".

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I agree with you again. Sniper shoot offs come up on occasion in my game as do sniper ambushes, in part because the team has a street sam who puts a lot of emphasis into sniping and sniper tactics and likes to overwatch on runs with his rifle.

For plot signifigant folks (PC's, prime runners) I tend to give them a contested perception roll as the first shot is taken. giving the target a chance however slight to catch the glint off a rifle barrel or just feel the hairs on the back of their neck rise and hit the dirt. It strikes a good balance between realism/lethality and some of the cheapness on all sides.

Also as TJ mentioned real snipers don't set themself up for stand up fights or return fire situations, on the off chance they did miss or just take all the shots they could comfortably make they'll likely disengage completely or "shoot and scoot, shoot and scoot".

Indeed... As always, what is good for the Player Characters (PC Snipers) is also good for the Opposition (NPC Snipers)... Can't argue against that piece of GM Wisdom, as I would also employ that myself in those circumstances... And Plot Significant Roles that you want to keep around definitely benefit from the possiblity of noticing that shot as it is taken (there are lots of movies that use that very same rational, after all, even if it may not be all that realistic)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[LurkerOutThere]

I can think of at least a couple historical account where snipers have been noticed by bad metal discipline. These details have likely gotten amplified well out of proportion over the years by Hollywood but there are a few isolated kernel's of truth.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I can think of at least a couple historical account where snipers have been noticed by bad metal discipline. These details have likely gotten amplified well out of proportion over the years by Hollywood but there are a few isolated kernel's of truth.

Indeed there are... Carlos Hathcock, a Former Marine Sniper killed an opposition Sniper because he saw the flash of the Optics... put a bullet right down the scope (he was a hell of a shot)... Being a Sniper requires a LOT of Discipline, both physically and mentally. Lose your focus for even a second and you can be discovered and eliminated.

And yes, Hollywoood does indeed blow things like this out of proportion. But why would they not, after all, the Hero has to survive to fight another day, and it is very hard to do so when you failk to see the sniper before he takes hsi shot. Though in all honesty (Hollywood wise anyway), Criminal organizations and foreign governments apparently employ some very substandard Snipers... I mean really, some of them miss by several feet... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith

[Dumori]

Yeah some "snipers" bearly calls as sharpshooters (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) They likely don't even taking into acount bullet drop let alone the weather.

Any way my last sinper PC did with out a scope due to that and GM wankery. Cyber eyes do the job just as well.

[Yerameyahu]

Tymeaus, it's hardly *my* fault that the rules are stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Tymeaus, it's hardly *my* fault that the rules are stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey, I never said that it was... and I never said the rules were stupid either... they are just rules... I tend to play by them, because my game world does not have to intersect my Real World... works better that way, as it helps to keep me sane. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Keep the Faith