Orcs as mammals Options

[IKerensky]

Yesterday I realise that Orcs got some deficiences as meta-humans that could explain why their growth rate are going down.

Orcs women give birth to a litter of 4 to 8 youngs (dont get me started on the semantics of the books).

But.

Orcs women still only have 2 breasts. So they cannot feed that much baby at the same time.

If you look at the mammals you will find that orcs are an exception to the rule that say that the number of breast are proportionnals to the number of births. On the other hand Orcs are the only primates that give birth to so many babies at the same time regularly.

So I ask the author to make their position clear :

Either the Orks go back to the more normal number of babies born but with a much faster gestation time

or

They go the full way they start, make Orks really animals and give Orcs female the 2 to 4 breast they currently lack in their evolutionnary path (for a total of 4 to 6).

Note : I am fairly aware that the modern world provide ample way to sustain babies without only ressorting to the mother ressource. But Nature usually dont care and used to provide the required equipment that go with the birth rate.

[Railgun]

Well for humans, they made the wheel. Orks, learned how to make breast pumps.

[Minchandre]

Because orks are clearly homo sapiens, I suspect that the magical changes that occurred to make them have lots of kids are too recent for evolution to catch up and provide them with the mammaries to match.

[IKerensky]

It is interesting to note that the 4th world Orks doesn't share the spawn rate of the SR4 ones.

"Well for humans, they made the wheel. Orks, learned how to make breast pumps."

And are supposed to let half their newborn die in place where they dont have access to medical supply ?

Also I am not a woman, but I dont think that, even when pumping on, 2 breast can feed 8 childs. An that is just the upper average.

Frankly I think they need to just cross off the stupidity of their idea that : orcs are just animals that breed like vermins and go back to the : Orks are metahumans that lives fast and die youngs and so they need a faster breeding.

[Caelwyn]

Being a magical race it is entirely plausible that they produce more milk than humans, they would require more sustenance than your average pregnant human of course but there is no reason it would be physiologically impossible.

[Minchandre]

Aside from the unusually fast breeding rate, I've never seen any canon reference to orks (why do you put the c in sometimes and the k others?) being "just animals that breed like vermins [sic]". Where are you getting that from?

[Lanlaorn]

Actually I think without access to medical supply half their newborns will die for other reasons.

Stone Age childbirth rates (and life expectancy in general) were abysmal. Anyway maybe the difference in litter size is due to modern nutrition, hormones or even pollutants?

[IKerensky]

I post orCs and orKs because I just cant decide on how to type it correctly (Tolkien or W40k...) and because in my native language it is Orque.

For me speaking of Orcs women giving birth to a 'Litter' is derogative and animalize them. The way they were and are hunt by some humans and meta-humans lobbies and settled into ghettos clearly show that they are viewed as sub-humans. Goblinisation was treated as a illness at start and still is view badly.

Just look how many Orks are SINLess in regards of Human or Elves.

[Blade]

Or the fact that they often have multiple birth might be some evolutionary trait that has recently developed, or might be induced by some of the living conditions of the 6th world orks...

[nemafow]

Orcs dont need milk? They are fed beef chops as babies! They are TOUGH!!!! XD

[IKerensky]

Orcs dont need milk? They are fed beef chops as babies! They are TOUGH!!!! XD

Well, probably soy-beef chops in the better case anyway (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sengir]

Also I am not a woman, but I dont think that, even when pumping on, 2 breast can feed 8 childs.

What makes you think orc mammary glands work like human ones? And why should orc mothers have to feed all their babies at once ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[IKerensky]

Because they are still Homo Sapiens and are supposed to be geneticaly compatible.
And an ork mother is supposed to be able to feed his human baby, and a human mother can feed his ork baby (rarer case).

Even if they dont feed them all at once, they need to have/produce enough milk for all of them.

I am fairly aware my post is borderline, but I wanted to point out how silly was the new idea that Ork birth rate put them more in the range with animals than meta-humans or primates. The suggested SR4, birth rate is complety out of whack and should be corrected because it make so little sense.

Orcs birth rate is an anomaly even in the Awakened world as it is the only species whose birth rate doesnt comply with is physiology, awakened or not, science or not.

I think it is detrimental to the Ork meta-types because it make them more alien and more close to the green hordes of usual med-fan roleplaying games than the evolued and intelligent meta-human they are supposed to be. I know they choose to sever the link with the 4th world but it is also very weird that 6th world Orks give birth to 2 to 3 times more childrens than their older counterpart (of course in the 4th world meta-human species aren't metahuman at all as they dont mix genetically and are no more compatible, thus no more Homo Sapiens but a true species).

[Sengir]

Because they are still Homo Sapiens and are supposed to be geneticaly compatible.
And an ork mother is supposed to be able to feed his human baby, and a human mother can feed his ork baby (rarer case).

So, what does any of that have to do with the questions I asked?

Orc breasts allow feeding multiple children, one after the other. ZOMG, that would TOTALLY destroy every last bit of SR canon...

[Wasabi]

Orcs could be communal like Native Americans and have others help feed the chirrens...

[Cheops]

A few things:

Orks are about the same size as Humans.
Ork women have a Y-shaped uterus and hence the multiple babies.
Since they are having more babies in the same body the babies are therefore smaller on average than human babies.

Orks are fully physically and sexually mature at 8 years old.
That's about half the time that it takes a human child.
Ergo we can probably assume that they nurse for half the time of a human baby.

According to the website I just read it seems that a human woman will be breast feeding for about 20 minutes out of every 2 hours (16.7% of the time).
This ratio goes down as the baby matures.

So basically, assuming a full litter of completely healthy babies (which is unlikely given socio-political situation) I'd say that basically, for 1 year after giving birth an ork woman basically becomes a milk factory and does little else. But is fully capable of feeding all of them with only 2 breasts.

Edit: Jon and Kate plus 8. Humans do it too.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It is ideal that a woman breast feed their children for two years. But most times the mother stops breast-feeding as early as 9-12 months, sometimes even more. Using the same comparison, an Ork mother could stop breast feeding as early as 4-6 months, also, depending on medical/magical support, half the babies might not even live that long. I don't think my suspension of disbelief has been grounded because of how Orks reproduce.

[Daddy's Litt...]

I think it is a very good point. Ork's are still animals, like all metahumans no matter how advanced the society. It almost seems to imply that Orks are designed to have a very high infant mortality rate. Like Fraternal twins might be common, but usually, 'in the wild' only one would make it to full term but with modern health care (snort ofl aughter) often many go full term resulting in 'litters' of ork babies.

[BlueMax]

Orcs could be communal like Native Americans and have others help feed the chirrens...

Your reason and logic have no place on Dumpshock.
And new age hipsters do this as well

BlueMax
/at least where I live

[TommyTwoToes]

So basically, assuming a full litter of completely healthy babies (which is unlikely given socio-political situation)

Remember due to the stat differences between orks and humans, those ork babies are signifigantly more resistant to disease and enviromental factors than a human child.

A disease that requires 1 sucess on a BODY roll will kill 2/3 of the human children (assuming minimum body for an infant) while an ork infant can reasonalby expect to pull through.

[Karoline]

Remember that evolution doesn't happen based solely on the creature in question, but as a total sum of its surroundings. Yes, Orks (might) breed faster than the mother can provide milk for the babies, but other options exist, such as formula. And since an option like formula exists, an Ork could evolve to include formula as an option. Basically the existence of formula causes Orks to evolve in such a way that they use formula to ensure their survival, kind of like the existence of seeds causes birds to evolve a certain way to use seeds to ensure their survival.

And that's only one possibility. It is equally possible that Ork mothers produce more milk than a Human mother (kind of like I'm sure a Whale produces more milk than a Human), or that there is a high infant mortality rate due to Ork mothers being unable to provide food for their children (which is basically expected of any creature that has a high birth rate/litter size), or Ork children don't need as much milk as Human children, or Ork children drink longer but less frequently to allow the mother time to switch between babies. Really, there are tons of possibilities that make Orks having high birth rates entirely reasonable without having to resort to 'it's magic' or 'it defies science' or anything similar.

[Dumori]

also the litter size of 6-8 is likely in the same frequency of twins and triplets 1-4 seams the more standard amount.

[Yerameyahu]

Orks are not 'evolved' for a baby formula civilization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[TommyTwoToes]

Orks are not 'evolved' for a baby formula civilization. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Not true, ork mothers regulary grind up elves and other plants, to make a juicey drink that is high in fiber for the little 'un to drink. Juiced elf isn't quite as tasty as dwarf-toe soup, but you don't get as much sould out of one dwarf as you get juice out of one elf.

[crash2029]

I would like to point out a few things. First of all orks, humans, dwarfs, trolls, and even elves are all mammals. The all belong the the Homo Sapiens family.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens
Homo Sapiens Robustus
Homo Sapiens Pumilonis
Homo Sapiens Ingentis
Homo Sapiens Nobilis

Because of this every metahuman is a mammal and an animal. Furthermore all metahumans belong to the Great Ape family/genus (I forget which exactly). Incidences of multiple births in primates is not common, but it is by no means that rare. Additionally the number of children, on average, that a female will bear is usually tied directly to the circumstances of the environment. In places with high infant mortality, short lifespan, and poor medical care there are often more children born. Conversely, in areas with low infant mortality, decent lifespan, and adequate medical care the average is alot closer to two children per female, or just enough to maintain population. Now of course this statement is in regards to humans in particular I do not see such a difference in 60 years. After all the socioeconomic structures that dictate average childbirth will remain much the same.

In summation, orks are mammals just like all the other metahumans.