Living Large, Troll Life Cycle Options

[DeathStrobe]

Someone made a post about Ork life cycles and I found it really educational. I know Trolls are suppose to live and die pretty quick too, but was wondering how its like being a troll in the Shadowrun setting. Judging by the fact that they're really rare, I can assume they don't breed as quickly or as numerous as Orks. Do they age as quickly? When do they hit maturity?

I'm just looking for some flavor to add to a young troll I plan on making.

[Pepsi Jedi]

I don't remember anything about Trolls aging or maturing more quickly than Humans or anything like orcs.

They do tend to have lower socio-economic status which in turn leads to poor healthcare which in turn leads to shorter lifespans but not the advanced maturation and death cycle of the orc.

[Ravennus]

I don't remember anything about Trolls aging or maturing more quickly than Humans or anything like orcs.

They do tend to have lower socio-economic status which in turn leads to poor healthcare which in turn leads to shorter lifespans but not the advanced maturation and death cycle of the orc.

From everything I've read I have to agree with Pepsi Jedi here. The main reason their average lifespan is listed as a bit less than humans is due to the lower socio-economic status.

But if you think about their general health and body stats it wouldn't surprise if a Troll could actually outlive a human by a decent margin if their living conditions were ideal. Game mechanics wise they might as well have regeneration for how high their Body pool is for healing.... well, at least compared to humans. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[D2F]

Personally, I wouldn't put much th9ought into it, anyway. If you want to look at Trolls from a more realistic perspective, the entire rules system of SR4 (and previous editions) would simply fall apart.

- A 300kg Troll requires substantially more food than a 80kg human. As food is one of the main factors for living expenses, this should factor into lifestyle costs. It is simply unrealistic to assume that a Troll can live a Low lifestly for the same 2,000¥ that a human pays. Abstraction is fine but even abstract, the numbers would still be higher for Trolls. If they were 150kg vs. 80kg, things wouldn't matter that much. 300kg vs. 80kg is a completely different ballpark, though.

- Trolls should not lose in a hand-to-hand situation against non-trolls. There is a reason for weight classes in martial arts. If you are considerably stronger and heavier than your opponent, there isn't much he can do to actually harm you. All martial arts movies and hype aside, if you go up against a trained opponent 2 weight classes above you, he will demolish you. See Matt Lindland vs. Fedor Emilianenko for proof of that statement.
300kg istn't just 2 weight classes, though. Even if you take a Bull of a man (265 lbs and up), you'd still have the equivalent of 9 weight classes between this monster and an average Troll (not even a buff one). A Buff Troll could easily hit 350kg or more, for a whopping 11-12 weight classes difference.
It will be hard for a non-Troll to gain enough mass to be physicall able to hurt him in the first place. The Troll would simply manhandle every non-Troll opponent.

- Trolls should have a significant Bonus in terms of physical intimidation. That "thing" has fist larger than your head. That "thing" can lift you up and tie you into a knot without breaking a sweat. It doesn't get much more intimidating in the physical category.

I'll stop my rant here and apologize. It's somewhat off-topic and I'm just ranting at this point. Sorry.

[Stahlseele]

Trolls only live about 50 to 55 years . . THat's still 10 to 15 years more than Orks get.

[Saint Sithney]

- Trolls should not lose in a hand-to-hand situation against non-trolls. There is a reason for weight classes in martial arts. If you are considerably stronger and heavier than your opponent, there isn't much he can do to actually harm you. All martial arts movies and hype aside, if you go up against a trained opponent 2 weight classes above you, he will demolish you. See Matt Lindland vs. Fedor Emilianenko for proof of that statement.
300kg istn't just 2 weight classes, though. Even if you take a Bull of a man (265 lbs and up), you'd still have the equivalent of 9 weight classes between this monster and an average Troll (not even a buff one). A Buff Troll could easily hit 350kg or more, for a whopping 11-12 weight classes difference.
It will be hard for a non-Troll to gain enough mass to be physicall able to hurt him in the first place. The Troll would simply manhandle every non-Troll opponent.

Trolls are generally slower than average, but anybody with any hope of standing toe to toe with a Troll in a brawl is going to have either:

a) A massive robot arm

b) Magical superpunches
and/or
c) Extensive training and superhuman agility.

[D2F]

Trolls are generally slower than agerage, but anybody with any hope of standing toe to toe with a Troll in a brawl is going to have either:

a) A massive robot arm

b) Magical superpunches
and/or
c) Extensive training and superhuman agility.

The difference between Agility 5 and 6 is negligible in that context. You can be nimble as a mongoose, if you don't have the mass, you can't hurt him, while he can fold you the moment he gets his hands on you. We are talking about more than 200kg weight difference here.

Rules-wise, I can build you a F*cking Pixie that can beat the biggest and baddest Troll the rules will permit to build. Where's the logic in that?

[The Grue Master]

- Trolls should not lose in a hand-to-hand situation against non-trolls. There is a reason for weight classes in martial arts. If you are considerably stronger and heavier than your opponent, there isn't much he can do to actually harm you. All martial arts movies and hype aside, if you go up against a trained opponent 2 weight classes above you, he will demolish you. See Matt Lindland vs. Fedor Emilianenko for proof of that statement.
300kg istn't just 2 weight classes, though. Even if you take a Bull of a man (265 lbs and up), you'd still have the equivalent of 9 weight classes between this monster and an average Troll (not even a buff one). A Buff Troll could easily hit 350kg or more, for a whopping 11-12 weight classes difference.
It will be hard for a non-Troll to gain enough mass to be physicall able to hurt him in the first place. The Troll would simply manhandle every non-Troll opponent.

There is a significant difference between fighting for sport and slashing someone's hamstrings then stabbing them to death in the armpits while they're down. That having been said, I do feel the rules give trolls a pretty significant bonus in your average brawl versus a human/elf/dwarf. Secondly, trolls (if my memory serves) are supposed to be metabolically slower than humans, which would explain the food issue and was also the reasoning behind some racial bonuses in SR3.

[Stahlseele]

If Trolls ALLWAYS get the Higher Ground Modifier due to them being 0,5 to 1m taller than anybody else on the field, THEN we are starting to talk business . .

[TheMidnightHobo]

Personally, I wouldn't put much th9ought into it, anyway. If you want to look at Trolls from a more realistic perspective, the entire rules system of SR4 (and previous editions) would simply fall apart.

- A 300kg Troll requires substantially more food than a 80kg human. As food is one of the main factors for living expenses, this should factor into lifestyle costs. It is simply unrealistic to assume that a Troll can live a Low lifestly for the same 2,000¥ that a human pays. Abstraction is fine but even abstract, the numbers would still be higher for Trolls. If they were 150kg vs. 80kg, things wouldn't matter that much. 300kg vs. 80kg is a completely different ballpark, though.

- Trolls should not lose in a hand-to-hand situation against non-trolls. There is a reason for weight classes in martial arts. If you are considerably stronger and heavier than your opponent, there isn't much he can do to actually harm you. All martial arts movies and hype aside, if you go up against a trained opponent 2 weight classes above you, he will demolish you. See Matt Lindland vs. Fedor Emilianenko for proof of that statement.
300kg istn't just 2 weight classes, though. Even if you take a Bull of a man (265 lbs and up), you'd still have the equivalent of 9 weight classes between this monster and an average Troll (not even a buff one). A Buff Troll could easily hit 350kg or more, for a whopping 11-12 weight classes difference.
It will be hard for a non-Troll to gain enough mass to be physicall able to hurt him in the first place. The Troll would simply manhandle every non-Troll opponent.

- Trolls should have a significant Bonus in terms of physical intimidation. That "thing" has fist larger than your head. That "thing" can lift you up and tie you into a knot without breaking a sweat. It doesn't get much more intimidating in the physical category.

I'll stop my rant here and apologize. It's somewhat off-topic and I'm just ranting at this point. Sorry.

I agree wholeheartedly - there should be more actual crunchy penalties and bonuses to playing each race. For example, Troll-sized cars should take longer to get up to speed (more inertia), and Dwarfs should not have to pay as much for lifestyles - they take up way less space and eat less food. The abstract stuff is fine until you actually think about the size and mass differences going on here.

[The Grue Master]

People often forget that (optionally) trolls are easier to hit with ranged weapons.

Large targets such as car-sized and larger vehicles, some orks,
most trolls, big trees, horses, and similar bulky creatures are easier
to hit. As a general rule, anything with a Body of 8–14 counts as
large. Apply a +1 dice pool modifier to the attack.

Also, in melee they get a point of reach and after subduing, are a bitch and a half to get away from.

[D2F]

People often forget that trolls are easier to hit with ranged weapons.

That's an optional rule.

Also, in melee they get a point of reach and after subduing, are a bitch and a half to get away from.

True, but nowhere close to the actual numbers differences. Just think about a 300kg Troll sitting on your (subdual&takedown). You think you got a snowball's chance in hell to get out from underneath him? And that doesn't even consider the fact that it would smother even the strongest of humans, just by the weight alone.

[CanRay]

"And that is why we here are WeightViewers are having a Special on Trolls! That's right, shed off those unsightly kilos in just days with our new program of meal replacements and exercise!

But wait, there's more! ..."

OK, sorry folks, that one got past my firewall.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

"And that is why we here are WeightViewers are having a Special on Trolls! That's right, shed off those unsightly kilos in just days with our new program of meal replacements and exercise!

But wait, there's more! ..."

OK, sorry folks, that one got past my firewall.

You REALLY Should update that Firewall Canray...

Keep the Faith

[Saint Sithney]

Where's the logic in that?

Magic and logic don't often mesh well.
I can make a human Mystic Adept who routinely punches the most heavily-armored tanks to death. Like Abrams tanks.

It's not logic, it's ~*Magic*~

[D2F]

Magic and logic don't often mesh well.
I can make a human Mystic Adept who routinely punches the most heavily-armored tanks to death. Like Abrams tanks.

It's not logic, it's ~*Magic*~

I am not talking about magic effects, though. "Magic" is not your explanation for everything Shadowrun. I am talking about very basic physics. A 300kg Troll, sitting on a 100kg human will kill him. Period. It's not even a contest. A 100kg human does not have the nescessary mass to inflict ANY recognizeable degree of harm to a 300kg Troll.

[Tanegar]

The whole point of magic is that it does not conform to the "laws" of physics. A 100kg human physical adept can, indeed, inflict a recognizeable degree of harm, up to and including fatal injury, on a 300kg troll. Why? It's MAGIC.

As for the other thing, sometimes logic just has to take a backseat to game balance. This is one of those times.

[D2F]

The whole point of magic is that it does not conform to the "laws" of physics. A 100kg human physical adept can, indeed, inflict a recognizeable degree of harm, up to and including fatal injury, on a 300kg troll. Why? It's MAGIC.

As for the other thing, sometimes logic just has to take a backseat to game balance. This is one of those times.

And you're not listening. I am NOT talking about Adepts! I am talking about mundane humans!

[CanRay]

A Mundane human can hit a troll in the crotch just fine.

I don't care how big you are, unless you are a MAJORLY tough character, that drops you.

[D2F]

A Mundane human can hit a troll in the crotch just fine.

I don't care how big you are, unless you are a MAJORLY tough character, that drops you.

So, a cat jumping on your crotch drops you?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

So, a cat jumping on your crotch drops you?

Don't know about a Cat, but my 4 year old son, with a jump into the bed often catches things better left avoided, and it does indeed cause a certain amount of pain and nausea for an amount of time that is best described as uncomfortable... That seems to be a fair comparison (40 lbs. vs 205lbs.) between a 100kg normal human and a 300kg Troll... Actually, looking at that, it is not all that fair... the Troll only outweighs the Human by a factor of 3, while I outweigh my son by a factor of 5... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

[D2F]

Don't know about a Cat, but my 4 year old son, with a jump into the bed often catches things better left avoided, and it does indeed cause a certain amount of pain and nausea for an amount of time that is best described as uncomfortable... That seems to be a fair comparison (40 lbs. vs 205lbs.) between a 100kg normal human and a 300kg Troll... Actually, looking at that, it is not all that fair... the Troll only outweighs the Human by a factor of 3, while I outweigh my son by a factor of 5... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

It's not just a matter of factor, though =) Plus: add in adrenaline and alcohol, and it becomes next to a non-factor. Now, if there are also friends nearby and "losing face" is to be avoided, it does become a non-factor.

Also keep in mind that we're not talking about "uncomfortable". We are talking about "unable to continue the fight".
As I said right at the beginning: it's not the end of the world. It's just unrealistic. Try to kick a Longhorn Bull in the gnads and see if he drops. My guess is: he's just going to be extemely pissed.

EDIT: A Longhorn Bull is a bad excemple. He can weigh up to 800kg. An average Grizzly Bear is a way better excemple.

[Tanegar]

And you're not listening. I am NOT talking about Adepts! I am talking about mundane humans!

You're the one not listening.

As for the other thing, sometimes logic just has to take a backseat to game balance. This is one of those times.

There is a time and a place for realism. Making trolls invulnerable in hand-to-hand combat against anything smaller than themselves is neither the time nor the place.

[D2F]

You're the one not listening.

There is a time and a place for realism. Making trolls invulnerable in hand-to-hand combat against anything smaller than themselves is neither the time nor the place.

I know why the rules are the way they are. I am just saying they are nowhere near realistic and that it irks me. But even considering game balance, trolls should still have more modifiers in melee combat and physical intimidation.

[Saint Sithney]

I am not talking about magic effects, though.

Sorry, I assumed you were, when you were talking about the uber-jujitsu pixie, which is what I was replying to.

Hard to imagine pixies and magic as separate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)