Someone made a post about Ork life cycles and I found it really educational. I know Trolls are suppose to live and die pretty quick too, but was wondering how its like being a troll in the Shadowrun setting. Judging by the fact that they're really rare, I can assume they don't breed as quickly or as numerous as Orks. Do they age as quickly? When do they hit maturity?

I'm just looking for some flavor to add to a young troll I plan on making.

I don't remember anything about Trolls aging or maturing more quickly than Humans or anything like orcs.

They do tend to have lower socio-economic status which in turn leads to poor healthcare which in turn leads to shorter lifespans but not the advanced maturation and death cycle of the orc.

From everything I've read I have to agree with Pepsi Jedi here. The main reason their average lifespan is listed as a bit less than humans is due to the lower socio-economic status.

But if you think about their general health and body stats it wouldn't surprise if a Troll could actually outlive a human by a decent margin if their living conditions were ideal. Game mechanics wise they might as well have regeneration for how high their Body pool is for healing.... well, at least compared to humans.

Personally, I wouldn't put much th9ought into it, anyway. If you want to look at Trolls from a more realistic perspective, the entire rules system of SR4 (and previous editions) would simply fall apart.

- A 300kg Troll requires substantially more food than a 80kg human. As food is one of the main factors for living expenses, this should factor into lifestyle costs. It is simply unrealistic to assume that a Troll can live a Low lifestly for the same 2,000¥ that a human pays. Abstraction is fine but even abstract, the numbers would still be higher for Trolls. If they were 150kg vs. 80kg, things wouldn't matter that much. 300kg vs. 80kg is a completely different ballpark, though.

- Trolls should not lose in a hand-to-hand situation against non-trolls. There is a reason for weight classes in martial arts. If you are considerably stronger and heavier than your opponent, there isn't much he can do to actually harm you. All martial arts movies and hype aside, if you go up against a trained opponent 2 weight classes above you, he will demolish you. See Matt Lindland vs. Fedor Emilianenko for proof of that statement.
300kg istn't just 2 weight classes, though. Even if you take a Bull of a man (265 lbs and up), you'd still have the equivalent of 9 weight classes between this monster and an average Troll (not even a buff one). A Buff Troll could easily hit 350kg or more, for a whopping 11-12 weight classes difference.
It will be hard for a non-Troll to gain enough mass to be physicall able to hurt him in the first place. The Troll would simply manhandle every non-Troll opponent.

- Trolls should have a significant Bonus in terms of physical intimidation. That "thing" has fist larger than your head. That "thing" can lift you up and tie you into a knot without breaking a sweat. It doesn't get much more intimidating in the physical category.

I'll stop my rant here and apologize. It's somewhat off-topic and I'm just ranting at this point. Sorry.

Trolls only live about 50 to 55 years . . THat's still 10 to 15 years more than Orks get.

Trolls are generally slower than average, but anybody with any hope of standing toe to toe with a Troll in a brawl is going to have either:

a) A massive robot arm

b) Magical superpunches
and/or
c) Extensive training and superhuman agility.

The difference between Agility 5 and 6 is negligible in that context. You can be nimble as a mongoose, if you don't have the mass, you can't hurt him, while he can fold you the moment he gets his hands on you. We are talking about more than 200kg weight difference here.

Rules-wise, I can build you a F*cking Pixie that can beat the biggest and baddest Troll the rules will permit to build. Where's the logic in that?

There is a significant difference between fighting for sport and slashing someone's hamstrings then stabbing them to death in the armpits while they're down. That having been said, I do feel the rules give trolls a pretty significant bonus in your average brawl versus a human/elf/dwarf. Secondly, trolls (if my memory serves) are supposed to be metabolically slower than humans, which would explain the food issue and was also the reasoning behind some racial bonuses in SR3.

If Trolls ALLWAYS get the Higher Ground Modifier due to them being 0,5 to 1m taller than anybody else on the field, THEN we are starting to talk business . .

I agree wholeheartedly - there should be more actual crunchy penalties and bonuses to playing each race. For example, Troll-sized cars should take longer to get up to speed (more inertia), and Dwarfs should not have to pay as much for lifestyles - they take up way less space and eat less food. The abstract stuff is fine until you actually think about the size and mass differences going on here.

People often forget that (optionally) trolls are easier to hit with ranged weapons.



Also, in melee they get a point of reach and after subduing, are a bitch and a half to get away from.

That's an optional rule.


True, but nowhere close to the actual numbers differences. Just think about a 300kg Troll sitting on your (subdual&takedown). You think you got a snowball's chance in hell to get out from underneath him? And that doesn't even consider the fact that it would smother even the strongest of humans, just by the weight alone.

"And that is why we here are WeightViewers are having a Special on Trolls! That's right, shed off those unsightly kilos in just days with our new program of meal replacements and exercise!

But wait, there's more! ..."

OK, sorry folks, that one got past my firewall.

You REALLY Should update that Firewall Canray...

Keep the Faith

Magic and logic don't often mesh well.
I can make a human Mystic Adept who routinely punches the most heavily-armored tanks to death. Like Abrams tanks.

It's not logic, it's ~*Magic*~

I am not talking about magic effects, though. "Magic" is not your explanation for everything Shadowrun. I am talking about very basic physics. A 300kg Troll, sitting on a 100kg human will kill him. Period. It's not even a contest. A 100kg human does not have the nescessary mass to inflict ANY recognizeable degree of harm to a 300kg Troll.

The whole point of magic is that it does not conform to the "laws" of physics. A 100kg human physical adept can, indeed, inflict a recognizeable degree of harm, up to and including fatal injury, on a 300kg troll. Why? It's MAGIC.

As for the other thing, sometimes logic just has to take a backseat to game balance. This is one of those times.

And you're not listening. I am NOT talking about Adepts! I am talking about mundane humans!

A Mundane human can hit a troll in the crotch just fine.

I don't care how big you are, unless you are a MAJORLY tough character, that drops you.

So, a cat jumping on your crotch drops you?

Don't know about a Cat, but my 4 year old son, with a jump into the bed often catches things better left avoided, and it does indeed cause a certain amount of pain and nausea for an amount of time that is best described as uncomfortable... That seems to be a fair comparison (40 lbs. vs 205lbs.) between a 100kg normal human and a 300kg Troll... Actually, looking at that, it is not all that fair... the Troll only outweighs the Human by a factor of 3, while I outweigh my son by a factor of 5...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

It's not just a matter of factor, though =) Plus: add in adrenaline and alcohol, and it becomes next to a non-factor. Now, if there are also friends nearby and "losing face" is to be avoided, it does become a non-factor.

Also keep in mind that we're not talking about "uncomfortable". We are talking about "unable to continue the fight".
As I said right at the beginning: it's not the end of the world. It's just unrealistic. Try to kick a Longhorn Bull in the gnads and see if he drops. My guess is: he's just going to be extemely pissed.

EDIT: A Longhorn Bull is a bad excemple. He can weigh up to 800kg. An average Grizzly Bear is a way better excemple.

You're the one not listening.

There is a time and a place for realism. Making trolls invulnerable in hand-to-hand combat against anything smaller than themselves is neither the time nor the place.

I know why the rules are the way they are. I am just saying they are nowhere near realistic and that it irks me. But even considering game balance, trolls should still have more modifiers in melee combat and physical intimidation.

Sorry, I assumed you were, when you were talking about the uber-jujitsu pixie, which is what I was replying to.

Hard to imagine pixies and magic as separate.

A normal Human of body of 3 can't possibly stand up to an average troll. Lets say an average troll has a strength of 7 that's 4 stun, plus hits, if it connects, odds are that human is going to be knocked down because he'll take more then his body in stun damage, and then the troll receives a +2 because the human is now on the ground. How on earth can a troll NOT win?

I guess the argument is that a human, even with the odds stacked against him can win sometimes, but the argument that a troll should win everytime without question is boring. Its a game after all, trolls should cost a lot more build points if that were the case.

Or human sees the troll coming and pulls out a gun and shoots him instead of getting in a fist fight with a troll?

Back in the day of SR3, a troll could wear some armor and take a headshot from a heavy pistol and shrug it off reasonably well . .

Fair enough. I differentiate between "magical but still bound by physics", which includes metatypes and surgelings that have no magical talent and "magical and beyond physics" which includes magicians, spirits and adepts. I can understand (to a degree) the point of "the critical strikes adept power is magical in nature and as such its effects are not bound by the limitatiopns of the physical realm" (even though I still consider it a cheap cop-out), but a creature that does not effectively utilize Magic (like your average mundane Troll) should still be subject to the laws of physics.


The way I see it, non-Trolls should have a major incentive NOT to get into close combat with a Troll. Shadowrun is not a Sword&Sorcery game, so arguing about melee balance is a mood point in my opinion. In a setting where you have automatic weapons, melee should be at a severe disadvantage anyway (which it is).

As i said, give Trolls ALLWAYS the Higher Ground Advantage and we are getting close.

I agree.

What's your argument? I thought you were complaining that trolls didn't come with enough advantages in melee.

But even at range, our "average" troll with a body of 7 can run around in full body armor, a helm, and a shield, and have 21 (14 ballistic from armor + 7 body + 1 armor for being a troll) dice to sock and still have no reaction penalty for wearing armor. That's 5 hits if you buy them, or average of 7 hits if rolled. And on top of that, the attacker would need to do more then 14 damage to do physical damage. This is of course assuming no AP. But still I think trolls have a pretty decent advantage of taking a bullet to the face compared to your average joe off the street.

And where exactly did you find a contradiction to that statement in the part you quoted?


I don't think anyone here was arguing about the effectiveness of Trolls as Meathshields. My Fomori has a (unmodified) soaking pool of 30 for ballistic attacks, at no penalty.

It just sounded like you were saying being a Troll isn't awesome enough. When they got a lot going for them.

Being a Troll is awesome, but it's not really that awesome in close combat, due to that running with the agility attribute.
Under SR3 Rules, that was all connected to STR, aside for Whips.

I wasn't complaining about the power of Trolls. I was saying that their rules implementation is nowhere near realistic. I was not only arguing the melee viewpoint but also that Lifestyle costs should be significantly higher, for excemple. None of which constitutes an actual problem, mind you.

I DO think that there is an incentive to not get in a brawl with a Troll... Generally they will win... Which is why I always pull a gun (Shotgun Preferrably), if I can, when opposed by a Troll... It may not quite even the odds, but at least it helps...

Keep the Faith

"I said hire a couple of guys."

"He *IS* a couple of guys!"

"I'll call the brute squad!"

"...I'm on the brute squad."

"You are the brute squad!"

Hmm ,than Everybody else should get the same Bonus Vs Dwarfes(except other Dwarves )
allways too

HokaHey
Medicineman

It works fine by me. Dwarves make awful shadowrunners with those short legs
*ducks and hides*

That's why they're stuck driving the getaway car - it means whoever sits in back has all the legroom they need.

It also means the smaller running speed matters little to the short people who are the tiny butt of every diminutive joke.
Also, the mini-driver gets to decide wether or noth the peole who make those petite jibes are allowed into their cars.
there's 7, count em, seven size-related adjectives in these two lines alone . . that's the worst part about playing dwarves.

Edit: Never mind.

While I agree that it's a bit off to have something with the mass and power of a grizzly bitch-slapped by a weak but agile elf, I think the whole melee combat (and especially the unarmed combat) system is wacky.

My personal pet peeves:
(Rant)
Here are some house rules that I'd like to try sometime:

• Unarmed damage codes are now based on one-third Strength, instead of one-half Strength.
• The only Unarmed specializations are Striking, Grappling, and Defense. If you declare a specialization, you should say what martial art style it's associated with, but this only matters for the purposes of fluff, and defining what manuevers are available.
• When declaring your specialization (or that you're not specializing), you should also declare whether your art links to Strength or Agility. GMs should encourage players to pick a linked ability that makes sense based on style chosen. (e.g. Wrestling could default to either, but Akido would logically default to Agility.)
• When in Unarmed Combat, both participants resist damage equal to the opponents base damage, raised or lowered by the net hits. If I do 3 damage and have 6 hits on my skill test, and you do 7 damage but only have 2 hits on your skill test, then I'll resist 3 damage (7, minus 4 net hits) and you'll resist 7 damage (3, plus 4 net hits). This means everybody will get a little bit hurt every round, unless the dice pools are so disproportionate that the contest is a joke.
• Yes, this makes trolls with high strength and body the kings of unarmed combat. Yes, this means that a troll brawler with Strength 12, Agility 2, and Brawling 3 will kick the ass of an elf with Strength 3, Agility 6, and Kung Fu 5. I personally think that it's appropriate. That elf would have no more luck with his delicate blocks against this troll than we would against a charging rhino.

[edit] Obviously, you could only adopt this house rule at the beginning of the game, since it completely changes the balance of different builds.

I like that. It would definitely result in a much more realistic outcome of most CQBs.

Is this DumpShock, or the Humanis Policlub Jokebook?

There's a difference now?