Living Large, Troll Life Cycle Options

[DeathStrobe]

A normal Human of body of 3 can't possibly stand up to an average troll. Lets say an average troll has a strength of 7 that's 4 stun, plus hits, if it connects, odds are that human is going to be knocked down because he'll take more then his body in stun damage, and then the troll receives a +2 because the human is now on the ground. How on earth can a troll NOT win?

I guess the argument is that a human, even with the odds stacked against him can win sometimes, but the argument that a troll should win everytime without question is boring. Its a game after all, trolls should cost a lot more build points if that were the case.

[Pepsi Jedi]

Or human sees the troll coming and pulls out a gun and shoots him instead of getting in a fist fight with a troll?

[Stahlseele]

Back in the day of SR3, a troll could wear some armor and take a headshot from a heavy pistol and shrug it off reasonably well . .

[D2F]

Sorry, I assumed you were, when you were talking about the uber-jujitsu pixie, which is what I was replying to.

Hard to imagine pixies and magic as separate. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Fair enough. I differentiate between "magical but still bound by physics", which includes metatypes and surgelings that have no magical talent and "magical and beyond physics" which includes magicians, spirits and adepts. I can understand (to a degree) the point of "the critical strikes adept power is magical in nature and as such its effects are not bound by the limitatiopns of the physical realm" (even though I still consider it a cheap cop-out), but a creature that does not effectively utilize Magic (like your average mundane Troll) should still be subject to the laws of physics.

A normal Human of body of 3 can't possibly stand up to an average troll. Lets say an average troll has a strength of 7 that's 4 stun, plus hits, if it connects, odds are that human is going to be knocked down because he'll take more then his body in stun damage, and then the troll receives a +2 because the human is now on the ground. How on earth can a troll NOT win?

I guess the argument is that a human, even with the odds stacked against him can win sometimes, but the argument that a troll should win everytime without question is boring. Its a game after all, trolls should cost a lot more build points if that were the case.

The way I see it, non-Trolls should have a major incentive NOT to get into close combat with a Troll. Shadowrun is not a Sword&Sorcery game, so arguing about melee balance is a mood point in my opinion. In a setting where you have automatic weapons, melee should be at a severe disadvantage anyway (which it is).

[Stahlseele]

As i said, give Trolls ALLWAYS the Higher Ground Advantage and we are getting close.

[D2F]

As i said, give Trolls ALLWAYS the Higher Ground Advantage and we are getting close.

I agree.

[DeathStrobe]

The way I see it, non-Trolls should have a major incentive NOT to get into close combat with a Troll. Shadowrun is not a Sword&Sorcery game, so arguing about melee balance is a mood point in my opinion. In a setting where you have automatic weapons, melee should be at a severe disadvantage anyway (which it is).

What's your argument? I thought you were complaining that trolls didn't come with enough advantages in melee.

But even at range, our "average" troll with a body of 7 can run around in full body armor, a helm, and a shield, and have 21 (14 ballistic from armor + 7 body + 1 armor for being a troll) dice to sock and still have no reaction penalty for wearing armor. That's 5 hits if you buy them, or average of 7 hits if rolled. And on top of that, the attacker would need to do more then 14 damage to do physical damage. This is of course assuming no AP. But still I think trolls have a pretty decent advantage of taking a bullet to the face compared to your average joe off the street.

[D2F]

What's your argument? I thought you were complaining that trolls didn't come with enough advantages in melee.

And where exactly did you find a contradiction to that statement in the part you quoted?

But even at range, our "average" troll with a body of 7 can run around in full body armor, a helm, and a shield, and have 21 (14 ballistic from armor + 7 body + 1 armor for being a troll) dice to sock and still have no reaction penalty for wearing armor. That's 5 hits if you buy them, or average of 7 hits if rolled. And on top of that, the attacker would need to do more then 14 damage to do physical damage. This is of course assuming no AP. But still I think trolls have a pretty decent advantage of taking a bullet to the face compared to your average joe off the street.

I don't think anyone here was arguing about the effectiveness of Trolls as Meathshields. My Fomori has a (unmodified) soaking pool of 30 for ballistic attacks, at no penalty.

[DeathStrobe]

And where exactly did you find a contradiction to that statement in the part you quoted?


I don't think anyone here was arguing about the effectiveness of Trolls as Meathshields. My Fomori has a (unmodified) soaking pool of 30 for ballistic attacks, at no penalty.

It just sounded like you were saying being a Troll isn't awesome enough. When they got a lot going for them.

[Stahlseele]

Being a Troll is awesome, but it's not really that awesome in close combat, due to that running with the agility attribute.
Under SR3 Rules, that was all connected to STR, aside for Whips.

[D2F]

It just sounded like you were saying being a Troll isn't awesome enough. When they got a lot going for them.

I wasn't complaining about the power of Trolls. I was saying that their rules implementation is nowhere near realistic. I was not only arguing the melee viewpoint but also that Lifestyle costs should be significantly higher, for excemple. None of which constitutes an actual problem, mind you.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Fair enough. I differentiate between "magical but still bound by physics", which includes metatypes and surgelings that have no magical talent and "magical and beyond physics" which includes magicians, spirits and adepts. I can understand (to a degree) the point of "the critical strikes adept power is magical in nature and as such its effects are not bound by the limitatiopns of the physical realm" (even though I still consider it a cheap cop-out), but a creature that does not effectively utilize Magic (like your average mundane Troll) should still be subject to the laws of physics.


The way I see it, non-Trolls should have a major incentive NOT to get into close combat with a Troll. Shadowrun is not a Sword&Sorcery game, so arguing about melee balance is a mood point in my opinion. In a setting where you have automatic weapons, melee should be at a severe disadvantage anyway (which it is).

I DO think that there is an incentive to not get in a brawl with a Troll... Generally they will win... Which is why I always pull a gun (Shotgun Preferrably), if I can, when opposed by a Troll... It may not quite even the odds, but at least it helps...

Keep the Faith

[CanRay]

"I said hire a couple of guys."

"He *IS* a couple of guys!"

[The Grue Master]

"I'll call the brute squad!"

"...I'm on the brute squad."

"You are the brute squad!"

[Medicineman]

As i said, give Trolls ALLWAYS the Higher Ground Advantage and we are getting close.

Hmm ,than Everybody else should get the same Bonus Vs Dwarfes(except other Dwarves )
allways too

HokaHey
Medicineman

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Hmm ,than Everybody else should get the same Bonus Vs Dwarfes(except other Dwarves )
allways too

HokaHey
Medicineman

It works fine by me. Dwarves make awful shadowrunners with those short legs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
*ducks and hides*

[Doc Chase]

It works fine by me. Dwarves make awful shadowrunners with those short legs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)
*ducks and hides*

That's why they're stuck driving the getaway car - it means whoever sits in back has all the legroom they need. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Stahlseele]

It also means the smaller running speed matters little to the short people who are the tiny butt of every diminutive joke.
Also, the mini-driver gets to decide wether or noth the peole who make those petite jibes are allowed into their cars.
there's 7, count em, seven size-related adjectives in these two lines alone . . that's the worst part about playing dwarves.

[Squiddy Attack]

Edit: Never mind.

[Apathy]

- Trolls should not lose in a hand-to-hand situation against non-trolls. There is a reason for weight classes in martial arts. If you are considerably stronger and heavier than your opponent, there isn't much he can do to actually harm you. All martial arts movies and hype aside, if you go up against a trained opponent 2 weight classes above you, he will demolish you. See Matt Lindland vs. Fedor Emilianenko for proof of that statement.
300kg istn't just 2 weight classes, though. Even if you take a Bull of a man (265 lbs and up), you'd still have the equivalent of 9 weight classes between this monster and an average Troll (not even a buff one). A Buff Troll could easily hit 350kg or more, for a whopping 11-12 weight classes difference.
It will be hard for a non-Troll to gain enough mass to be physicall able to hurt him in the first place. The Troll would simply manhandle every non-Troll opponent.

While I agree that it's a bit off to have something with the mass and power of a grizzly bitch-slapped by a weak but agile elf, I think the whole melee combat (and especially the unarmed combat) system is wacky.

My personal pet peeves:
(Rant)

[ Spoiler ]

• Unarmed damage codes in general are much too strong compared to armed combat. While fist-fighting with a swordsman looks cool in the movies, it seems a bit silly to me.
• I hate the martial arts specializations. I think the only specializations should be striking, grappeling, and possibly defense. Muay Thai 4 is really Unarmed 2 with a specialization in Striking. Krav Maga 5 is Unarmed 5 (no specialization). The rest is just fluff and pandering to people who want to think their particular style of combat is special.
• Strength should be a valid linked attribute for unarmed combat. There are plenty of styles that focus more on brute force and power than on speed and precision strikes. This could also apply to heavy melee weapons like mauls, axes, and polearms. This would also serve to make the dump stat strength be a bit more useful for at least a few builds (assuming that you'd want to gimp yourself by being a melee fighter in the first place.)

Here are some house rules that I'd like to try sometime:

• Unarmed damage codes are now based on one-third Strength, instead of one-half Strength.
• The only Unarmed specializations are Striking, Grappling, and Defense. If you declare a specialization, you should say what martial art style it's associated with, but this only matters for the purposes of fluff, and defining what manuevers are available.
• When declaring your specialization (or that you're not specializing), you should also declare whether your art links to Strength or Agility. GMs should encourage players to pick a linked ability that makes sense based on style chosen. (e.g. Wrestling could default to either, but Akido would logically default to Agility.)
• When in Unarmed Combat, both participants resist damage equal to the opponents base damage, raised or lowered by the net hits. If I do 3 damage and have 6 hits on my skill test, and you do 7 damage but only have 2 hits on your skill test, then I'll resist 3 damage (7, minus 4 net hits) and you'll resist 7 damage (3, plus 4 net hits). This means everybody will get a little bit hurt every round, unless the dice pools are so disproportionate that the contest is a joke.
• Yes, this makes trolls with high strength and body the kings of unarmed combat. Yes, this means that a troll brawler with Strength 12, Agility 2, and Brawling 3 will kick the ass of an elf with Strength 3, Agility 6, and Kung Fu 5. I personally think that it's appropriate. That elf would have no more luck with his delicate blocks against this troll than we would against a charging rhino.

[edit] Obviously, you could only adopt this house rule at the beginning of the game, since it completely changes the balance of different builds.

[D2F]

While I agree that it's a bit off to have something with the mass and power of a grizzly bitch-slapped by a weak but agile elf, I think the whole melee combat (and especially the unarmed combat) system is wacky.

My personal pet peeves:
(Rant)

[ Spoiler ]

• Unarmed damage codes in general are much too strong compared to armed combat. While fist-fighting with a swordsman looks cool in the movies, it seems a bit silly to me.
• I hate the martial arts specializations. I think the only specializations should be striking, grappeling, and possibly defense. Muay Thai 4 is really Unarmed 2 with a specialization in Striking. Krav Maga 5 is Unarmed 5 (no specialization). The rest is just fluff and pandering to people who want to think their particular style of combat is special.
• Strength should be a valid linked attribute for unarmed combat. There are plenty of styles that focus more on brute force and power than on speed and precision strikes. This could also apply to heavy melee weapons like mauls, axes, and polearms. This would also serve to make the dump stat strength be a bit more useful for at least a few builds (assuming that you'd want to gimp yourself by being a melee fighter in the first place.)

Here are some house rules that I'd like to try sometime:

• Unarmed damage codes are now based on one-third Strength, instead of one-half Strength.
• The only Unarmed specializations are Striking, Grappling, and Defense. If you declare a specialization, you should say what martial art style it's associated with, but this only matters for the purposes of fluff, and defining what manuevers are available.
• When declaring your specialization (or that you're not specializing), you should also declare whether your art links to Strength or Agility. GMs should encourage players to pick a linked ability that makes sense based on style chosen. (e.g. Wrestling could default to either, but Akido would logically default to Agility.)
• When in Unarmed Combat, both participants the opponents base damage, raised or lowered by the net hits. If I do 3 damage and have 6 hits on my skill test, and you do 7 damage but only have 2 hits on your skill test, then I'll resist 3 damage (7, minus 4 net hits) and you'll resist 7 damage (3, plus 4 net hits). This means everybody will get a little bit hurt every round, unless the dice pools are so disproportionate that the contest is a joke.
• Yes, this makes trolls with high strength and body the kings of unarmed combat. Yes, this means that a troll brawler with Strength 12, Agility 2, and Brawling 3 will kick the ass of an elf with Strength 3, Agility 6, and Kung Fu 5. I personally think that it's appropriate. That elf would have no more luck with his delicate blocks against this troll than we would against a charging rhino.

[edit] Obviously, you could only adopt this house rule at the beginning of the game, since it completely changes the balance of different builds.

I like that. It would definitely result in a much more realistic outcome of most CQBs.

[CanRay]

I was wondering why there were so many dwarf riggers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Is this DumpShock, or the Humanis Policlub Jokebook?

[Stahlseele]

There's a difference now?