Real magic vs SR magic Options

[Czar Eggbert]

I know that any topic that leans in any direction outside the known physical world leads many people taking a sarcastic approach, but if you don't believe in magic, then why even bother responding to the post?

I don't 100% believe in magic, in fact that what people tell me is holding me back in my studies, but I have seen/felt/heard things that can not be explained by the known laws of physics. I have participated in rituals, which in my mind were nothing but energy gathering and centering exorcizes, and I think that is why I have never experenced "drain". Think about it, magic, as it is used in the Real World, is NOT the magic of SR. The energy used/created in a luck/wealth/health spell is nothing compaired to the energy it would take to create a Force 1 illusion spell in SR. Parth of the way I view drain is that the mage is an astral circuit breaker, and SR magic puts more stress on the body as it draws a higher voltage and current. IRL magic take a long time and produces less flashy results thus not straining the breaker.

IRL a health spell is not going to heal multiple bullit wounds 30 seconds as if they never happened.

IRL it takes much longer than 3 seconds to light a match with your mind*, nevermind a fireball.

I see Mages in SR as being very inexperenced in manipulating the sudden influx of energies, and, instead of comming up with a way do do it safely, the deal with it in the same way that their perdessors did not caring that they run the chance of burning themselves out.

-Eggy

*Now before some smartass desides to say that they can light a match with there mind in less than a second, let me clarify. I am talking about lighting a match with out using any part of your, or anyone elses, body. Using only the power of your mind/soul/whetever.

[krishcane]

I am so pleased to see some thoughtful answers to my questions. Thank you to those folks. It sounds like no one has experienced something like drain, although Czar Eggbert thinks we might if we could actually throw fireballs.

If anyone out there does experience drain, please chime in. I would have some further questions for you.

As for the majority of the responders, I see the topic aroused a certain amount of emotion, beyond what I expected. With the exception of Crimson Jack's post, I was not able to discern any questions clearly, although some were implied, but I am happy to answer any direct questions for the curious. I do think it's a tragedy to live blind to the beauty and power around us.

Crimson Jack asked, "What exactly is meant by energy moving?"

That was basically a catch-all phrase for any practice related to moving energy around, either in the body or out in the world. The next obvious question is, "What do I mean by energy?" I'm referring to that intangible "stuff" that people experience and call by many names -- mana, ki, spirit, and many more. "Energy" is a common enough name in our culture.

All people experience it, but most Americans ignore it or dismiss the sensation of energy as not important, not real, or just a quirk or emotional response. Carefully observing those little quirks -- twiches in your muscles, feelings in your head, the stir of the wind, the ambient light in the room -- patterns emerge that correlate to real-world events. The actual experience of energy is a little different for everyone, so each person has to study their experience of it to figure out what the messages mean, but once a person gains that experience, it's a very distinct and clear experience. It is also distinctly different from drug-use, one's own brain-chatter and thought-stream, and sleep-deprivation or other body-abuse.

The actual energy-sense is much like the balance-sense, in that it is intuitive and distinct, but hard to write down. How do you "know" when you're upside down? Well, you just know, thanks to life experience correlated with visual cues. Energy-sensing is the same way.

Anyway, beyond energy sensing, one can push energy around through visualization, movement, and lots of other techniques. Having a sense of what patterns in the tangible world are associated with which energy senses, you can influence the tangible world by moving energy around. Probably the all-time most popular thing to influence this way is health -- boosting the immune system, alleviating pain in self and others, etc. Next most popular, in general, is probably information-gathering -- divining the future, remote-sensing, sensing danger, etc. Beyond that, some people work to influence the weather, the thoughts and emotions of others, their luck, and other seemingly "random" things.

It's not a substitute for physics, and people unfortunately get confused about this all the time (both practitioners and non-pracitioners). Physics doesn't stop for magic. However, physics leaves some lee-way, and magic works in that leeway.

--K

[GunnerJ]

Well, while I'm skeptical of your claims to be able to perform magical acts, I'm also curious about it.

1) What do you mean by "magic?" Is this a set, single body of ideas or are there different forms? How would you know if one proposed method of magic is real and another not?

2) When did you start practicing what you call "magic?" What/who did you learn from?

3) What types of effects do you feel you have observed or brought about through the practice of magic?

4) If someone doubted your claims but was interested in testing them, what would you tell him if you were inclined to convince him that you are indeed capable of what you claim?

[Zazen]

That's why this topic was greeted with such emotion, because us non-superstitious folk don't like being told that we're just deluded and incapable of seeing the truth. I have a few friends who are really into this kind of stuff, and it bugs the crap out of me when they act condescending towards me because I'm closed-minded or blocked or whatever.

Because if you can do real magic, DO SOMETHING TANGIBLE. Levitate a penny. Set a fire from across the room. Read my mind. SOMETHING, y'know? Otherwise don't tell me that I'm ignoring and dismissing my natural attunement to the energies of magic. If they were there, you'd actually be doing something with them other than chasing ghosts and leylines and feeling mysterious energies which might be last nights burrito.


Sorry about the outburst, but it really burns me when my friends do this and this just brought up memories of it. Believe what you want to believe, but don't tell me that I'm blind.

[tjn]

[John Campbell]

[moosegod]

[John Campbell]

It's occurred to me, on giving the matter some more thought while showering off the grime from practice, that Pathwalker may have meant to keep all of the muscles in the arm tight in scenario 2, in which case, it could very well have the effects described. This is not because of any magical energy flow, however, but because the muscles in the arm are arranged in opposing pairs, so as to be able to move it in both directions, and tightening all of them forces the opposing pairs - the bicep and tricep, in this case - to fight each other. The dupe is actually exerting a lot more effort in scenario 2, but most of it is being wasted in countering the effects of the opposing muscles, and when you try to bend his arm, his own bicep is helping you do it, partially offsetting the effects of his tricep.

I didn't observe this effect because neither of our newbies are quite new enough to still make that mistake. They've both been fighting for about six months, and we've trained the stiff-armed seal-clubbing instinct entirely out of one of them, and the other has it intellectually, though it's not yet instinctive for him, so he only does it in combat when he's thinking about other things (like how to stop the experienced fighters from hitting him in the face at will). And I never did it.

[Shanshu Freeman]

[Sahandrian]

I think the point was not "How can you possibly know you're upside down" but more that, when you're hanging upside down with your eyes closed an no other clues to the fact, you don't think "the shifting flud in my inner ear has brushed against the microscopic hairs of my cochlea in a most unusual way, perhaps I am not standing upright." You think "why am I upside down?" You don't have to know why you can sense it, you just do and give it no more thought.

Edit: As for the writing part, give a written description of the difference of how it feels to be upside down as opposed to right side up. Most people will come up with something along the lines of "it just feels different" with some amount of detail.

[Reaver]

[Toptomcat]

Krishcane?
Frankly, I'd love to beleive in magic, but being heardheaded as well as openminded I'm unwilling to do so until I see some objective proof.
Please look into this if you feel that you really practice magic. It involves a million-dollar prize if you can demonstrate paranormal ability.
http://www.randi.org/research/

[Lantzer]

It says a lot that none of the famous 'Gifted' people have even attempted to try for the money. The list of excuses is entertaining.

The deep silence from them is very telling. At times, Randi has practically begged them to come and take the money. The point of his skepticism, after all, isn't to say that there is not, and cannot be any such thing as magic, or psychics, or aliens, or whatnot.

His point is that you should not take other people's money and adoration if you can't prove you can actually _do_ any of the things you claim.

[Siege]

While Randi's point is well made, if people want to give John Edwards (the psychic) money for his hocus pocus and believing in what he has to offer, is it really that different from people buying their way into Heaven with televangelists?

Or that Psychic from Jamaica -- I can't remember her name now, but she got busted by the FCC (I think) for fraud.

The only difference being, televangelists don't have the fine print that reads "for entertainment purposes only", although perhaps they should.

If people want to buy into it and are willing to spend their money, so be it.

-Siege

[rlemansky]

Greetings.

Drain as such, no, never experienced it. I do therapeutic massage and bodywork (with a smattering of 'energy manipulations'-polarity, reiki, energy balancing, even some pendulum work and crystal therapy-so I guess I'm one of those New Agers, even though I was working on a degree in Engineering Science). Mostly, I get a high off of bodywork, and maybe a bit of butterflies in the stomach if someone's doing energy work near me.

One of the well known and often documented effects of bodywork, for a practitioner, is picking up a patient/clients illness or attitude from doing the work, if one doesn't ground oneself properly or rinse the hands with cold water after the session. Shoulder pains, upset stomach, sinus congestion (OK, THAT one could be contagious), even anger or depression can all be taken on. Ask a bodyworker about it at some point (even the ones at PT and rehab clinics).

Psychosomatic-possibly, but how can that be possible if the patient/client hasn't mentioned the particular malady?

'Energy work', in it's various forms, is as close to SR 'healing magic' in RL as one can get. It doesn't 'drain', per se, but usually you're merely a conduit for energy (I know I'm losing people here). I've seen it 'work'-people have odd sensations, illnesses do clear up (I used to have horrible knee problems and a session of energy work set them right, and they've yet to bother me since), and the practitioner can detect where problems lie-ones that are then later verified by scientific, medical examination.

Things like intuition (especially when practicing the martial arts) can be effective and useful. I've known astrology (natal charts) to be spot on for most people-even when there's conflicts, I think most of us will admit to being bundles of often conflicting drives. I've seen Tarot and other divinations lead to rather unusual coincidences-and if you start to chart the coincidences, you'll find that many of them do pan out. Try this-start writing down the times when a song pops into your head and you turn on the radio to that song-or when a person comes unbidden to your mind and you hear from him/her out of the blue, or the unusual re-occurence of a particular number combination-it can be staggering.

Sure, you can chalk it up to coincidence, but what if it's not? Noticing the pattern's one thing, and most RL magic is geared towards nudging coincidences to a desired end. I've done blind Feng Shui evaluations and painted an accurate picture of the lives of the inhabitants of the house, doubled and then doubled again productivity in a business (to the tune of $250,000 in a quarter) with Feng Shui, seen a guy's love life turn completely around through placement of a crystal (no dates in two years, then twelve girls in twelve days). We even got my wife a job through a Tantrik Magic Ritual.

I know 'sensitive' people who don't have a clue. I usually run GWAR concerts through my head when getting energy work practiced on me, to see how sensitive the practitioner (or 'Master') may be-a few have clued in, but not many. Most New Agers don't care about the pragmatic effects of magic, most of them pay attention to the trappings. I always challenge students-if you're not happy with your situation, do something about it. All of these 'Masters'-what do they have to show for their supposed skills?

I use essential oils, herbs, energy and crystals in my daily work (and make a good living at it, and have 3-day weekends every week, and a ten day vacation every month and a half-I've four wonderful kids, a wonderful wife, a house, mini-van and a car, plus sundry pets and trips). I can't throw fireballs (although one experiment with Fire Magic DID result in the target's car blowing a radiator within an hour...), nor would I want to. I CAN see what's coming (and often times I ignore the best of advice-five times running had the card (out of 72) for Futility come up in a row, and still I pressed on...), and nudge things into going my way, most of the time. Still haven't figured out how to get winning littery numbers as of yet, though...

Our senses are ultimately functions of our brains/minds. Any connection of events are ones we attribute. Certain rituals may facilitate certain sensations and experiences (I have a tasty Succubus summoning ritual). Is it just a guide for imagination? Probably, but good fun nonetheless.

'World views have inertia.' The more one looks for information to support a particular viewpoint, the more information one will find (even conflicting ones).

Sorry for the rant, and I know I'll probably be flamed to hell and back. I don't imagine that I'll convince anyone to change their views. Still, I've no motivation to lie and can back up every statement that I've made. So much for magic in RL...

R

[Reaver]

[Siege]

We haven't had any flaming yet so relax and discuss.

-Siege

[rlemansky]

Greetings.

The Randi thing is interesting. I'd have to figure out how to come up with a ritual goal that would be measurable and outside of chance. Accurately predicting the future-lottery numbers, coin tosses-I've not the first clue how to do. Influencing a job interview, or a date, or getting a good parking space-that's easy. But, it won't prove anything to a sceptic...

Still, a million's a lot of cash. Worth contemplating at the least...

R

[Dashifen]

Some people have tried to do it thusly:

A group of shamans in the U.S. took two bowls. Filled them with de-ionized water with a pH around 5.5. Then, they added a chemical -- amonium hydroxide IIRC -- until the pH was 12.5. A pH that high would be lethal.

Then, moving one bowl into a seperate room away from them to be used as a control, they performed a healing/clensing ritual on the bowl of acid. The first time they performed it, the pH was lowered to 9. On subsequent re-trials they were able to lower the pH by similar amounts.

For more information you can check out Willow Polson's new book called Beyond the Veil. She also discusses other evidence of magic's effects in the world including research being conducted at Princeton with their random number cruching "eggs."

Another possible source for mor information would be Laurie Cabot's book entitled Power of the Witch. Despite the authors obvious bias toward one system of magic over others, there are two chapters toward the end of the book (forgive me, I haven't read it in a long time) where she discusses possible applications of modern quantum physics and the laws of thermodynamics and how they apply to magical techniques. Willow Polson also discusses quantum physics in her book mentioned above.

[Fahr]

I have experienced something close to drain.

but only when working with mechanical devices. I have willed vehicles to continue working long pat the point where they shouldn't have. and the end result is that I (obviously) can't run the machine for ever in that state, but I sure can make it last longer than otherwise.

but whenever I have to do this, I am always utterly exhausted afterwards.

as for the sceptics, the truth is that you "believe" that none of this works, so no amount of evidence would ever convince you. partly cause you want to see the fireballs and levitation, and real life magic doesn't work like that. real life magic as I have been able to tell is all about manipulating chance. so the results are not obvious and very difficult to verify.

but I did once do a physics experiment that would be decent evidence.
the experiment was set up like this, a board with evenly spaced nails in it (checked out of UT austin physics lab - ie. I didn't make it and is was identical to 30 others) kinda like the old plinko game from price is right. andyway, me and my (also magicaly active) lab partner dropped washers from a predetermined spot repeatedly. this experiment was supposed to show a bell curve distribution of data points.
After we did the experiment 3 time, with three different boards, we could not get anything close to a bell curve, in fact we actually got a reverse bell curve. every other pair in the class was able to get a bell curve. we tried different boards, different washers and different desks.

does this prove magic. no. but it is verifiable evidence of probability manipulation. (I got a D on that lab cause we couldn't explain our screwy results - I would have loved to come up with a good explanation)

sceptics will look at this and blame it on my performace of the experiment. and that is why I don't usually bother trying to convince anyone. sceptics will only be convinced by themselves, and only if they cna examine there own beleifs as closely as they examine those they claim do not exist. because, after all, science is only a model.

-Mike R.

[Cray74]

[Zazen]

[krishcane]

Wow, I wish I had time to reply to all these good posts! There's a real wellspring of good thought here, and I'm pleased to hear from some very experienced folks. Thanks to the bodyworkers and ritual workers!

Brief answers to GunnerJ's questions:

[Pistons]

Drain, in the sense of feeling fatigued or sick afterward? Only in cases of a) high ritual magic or b) where I haven't grounded and centered adequately, first.

SR magic is on a significantly higher scale than what can be produced now.

While I understand the skepticism, and believe that it's a healthy response, I would like the skeptics to keep in mind that so far, no one here is really asking you to believe as they do -- just to recognize that they do have such beliefs, and let it be without judgment calls (fools, frauds, etc.).

I also want believers to keep in mind that giving back a judgment call (blind, narrow-minded) is not acceptable, either.

That, my friends, is flaming. Discuss, be skeptical, but keep negative, non-constructive opining about each other and respective beliefs to yourselves.

krishcane, this topic seems slanted more toward areas of real life and less about Shadowrun. I would appreciate it if you could direct it more toward the latter, because the first is a Lounge-type topic.

[Austere Emancipa...]