IPB

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

2 Pages V   1 2 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> guns from astral space
ting-bu-dong
post Feb 29 2004, 06:04 AM
Post #1


Target
*

Group: Members
Posts: 61
Joined: 15-September 03
From: Shanghai, China
Member No.: 5,618



Hi,
we were playing Shadowrun last night and one question from a player came up and since nobody in our group really knows much about astral physics, I thought I post it here to see what others think of it.

Basically, in the material space everything with mass is solid and energies are not. In the astral space, awakened life is solid but mass is not.

Therefore, there are no guns in astral space. But would this hybrid approach work:

If you coat a gun with awakened dual matter, like a liquid that contains awakened bacteria or so, and use capsule ammunition filled with the same material, could an astral body be able to hold the dual matter and therefore the gun as the gun sticks to the material part of the dual matter? This would allow an astral body to carry this gun which would effectively be dualnatured. Therefore security guards would have to face a floating gun without a visible wielder.

Now, if the ammunition was filled with dual-natured matter too, would an astral body that is hit by this ammunition be harmed as well? Could security guards use capsule ammunition filled with awakened matter to get rid of astral intruders?

The question came up because there is only one character with astral mobility in the group and as an elk shaman he is not very skilled at astral combat. Unfortunately, the main antagonist behind the scenes is an ant shaman that likes to lurk on the astral plane.

Would this work?

tbd
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Herald of Verjig...
post Feb 29 2004, 06:12 AM
Post #2


Runner
******

Group: Members
Posts: 3,066
Joined: 5-February 03
Member No.: 4,017



No, you cannot hurt an astral spirit by shooting it like that. There is no inertia on the astral, so the damage a bullet causes does not exist in that plane. Also, life is not astrally solid in 3rd edition.

The only solid astral material (besides wards) are mentioned in Target: Awakened Lands.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John Campbell
post Feb 29 2004, 06:33 AM
Post #3


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,028
Joined: 9-November 02
From: The Republic of Vermont
Member No.: 3,581



Personally, I don't see any reason that a warded bullet wouldn't do damage on the astral. There may not be any inertia on the astral, but there is on the physical plane, and the astral form of the wards are directly tied to the physical form of the bullet. Having a ward forced through you doesn't seem like it'd be a lot more fun than being forced through a ward. Best case, it'll push you in front of it at bullet speeds until either it hits something on the physical and stops, or you hit something on the astral and those forcing through barriers rules come into play again.

The astral gun, however, I'd rule against. The way I figure it, if you project with it, the astral form will simply project along with you, and the physical form will stay with your body. This will not produce a usable astral gun, because pulling the purely astral trigger with your purely astral finger won't actuate the physical mechanism any more than it causes your physical finger to move. And even if it did, the bullet wouldn't come out the astral barrel, it'd come out the physical one near your body.

Alternately, you could try to pick the gun up after projecting. Your astral form can't apply force on the physical plane, however, so the physical weight of the gun will pull it down though your hand... and we get to play with the forcing through barriers rules again.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Entropy Kid
post Feb 29 2004, 06:34 AM
Post #4


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 173
Joined: 4-March 03
Member No.: 4,196



No, it wouldn't work. Only magical gear (foci etc) go with a character during astral projection. It's also just the magical form of the object, not the physical. An object coated in a dual-natured substance could be used to stop astral fast movement, but not cause damage. If the object were enchanted it would respond to astral combat, but again couldn't be used offensively.

Note, my interpretation of this isn't logical nor based on reality. In the examples of pressing through barriers the ward is bigger than the astrally present character, and the character is moving toward a stationary barrier. MitS pg 83 gives the rules and examples. If an astrally present character fails to completely pass through a barrier they have the choice (if capable) of projecting--essentially getting pushed out of their own body.

Back on topic- a ward on a bullet would only be as large as the slug. If it came into contact with an astral character/spirit, and if one couldn't pass through the other (failed test) they'd just "slide" against one another and the astral bullet would push the projection/spirit asside and continue on its way (probably going off course itself), no damage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Lilt
post Feb 29 2004, 11:14 AM
Post #5


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,965
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Member No.: 2,032



I'd say No to focus-guns (it's explicitly stated that the nature of the astral plane precludes the use of ranged weapons) but yes to dual natured bullets (active sustaining foci) doing damage to astral entities. I would, however, say that the damage done by the bullet would be based on astral combat with the sustaining focus's strength rather than the inertia of the bullet.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Feb 29 2004, 12:04 PM
Post #6


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



I'll say no to guns as a foci as you have described it. But a yes, to warded bullets. The bullet would push through an astral form, and do damge that way. Theorectically, it is akin to making a very small ward and go running into that ward. You will take damage.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Entropy Kid
post Feb 29 2004, 12:17 PM
Post #7


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 173
Joined: 4-March 03
Member No.: 4,196



The target would make a Charisma (Force) test needing success equal to half (rounded down) Force of the bullet-ward. If enough success is made, the ward passes through the target, no problem. If it did get enough success, damage would be (Force*2)D Stun resisted with Willpower (quoted-extrapolated pg 83 MitS) or maybe it'd be disrupted. You'll have to decide if extra net success on the attack do anything.

Now, what happens when a warded physical bullet hits a physical (shapeshifter, cyberzombie, etc.) dual-natured being? A successful Charisma test can't allow the ward to pass through, unless the physical bullet also passes through. If the hit from the weapon is completely soaked does the ward effect the target at all? What about a Light wound? What if the target takes a Serious physical wound (bullet penetrates body?), but passes the Charisma test--they are now only part way through the barrier. Do they engage it in astral combat now? What about initiates with Masking metamagic or spirits with the Aura Masking power (pg. 88 MitS)?

Things to think about if implementing this.

edit-accuracy
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Nikoli
post Feb 29 2004, 02:27 PM
Post #8


Chicago Survivor
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 5,079
Joined: 28-January 04
From: Canton, GA
Member No.: 6,033



Another thought, with the FAB coated weapon, you might be able to cast magic fingers fromt eh astral plane and bring it along with you.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Feb 29 2004, 02:33 PM
Post #9


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
An astral "bullet" coudn't be a foci of any kind, once it lost contact with whoever it was bonded to it would immediately deactivate.


*Wrong* The focus deactivates once it loses contact to its target (where in most cases that target also is the person who bonded the focus) ...

You could however use a bullet as sustaining focus that sustains a spell cast onto the bullet itself (like a "silence spell" to remove sound emission the bullet would normally create) ... But who has actually got a minimum of 15kĄ per shot and the karma to bond such a focus?
Because once used, the bullet will be "destroyed" and the foucs as such as well ...

Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
John Campbell
post Feb 29 2004, 05:46 PM
Post #10


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,028
Joined: 9-November 02
From: The Republic of Vermont
Member No.: 3,581



QUOTE (Nikoli)
Another thought, with the FAB coated weapon, you might be able to cast magic fingers fromt eh astral plane and bring it along with you.

Can't do it. The caster and the target have to be on the same plane. In this case, you'd be trying to affect the physical form of the gun on the physical plane with a spell cast on the astral. Doesn't work.

You can't use Magic Fingers for anything from the astral, actually. It's a physical spell, so it doesn't affect astral forms, and you can't cast across the plane barrier, so you can't affect physical forms either.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Mar 1 2004, 01:17 AM
Post #11


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



QUOTE
Best case, it'll push you in front of it at bullet speeds until either it hits something on the physical and stops, or you hit something on the astral and those forcing through barriers rules come into play again.

That could only work if the astral being was surrounded by a barrier, like a fab net. There is no resistance in astral space, nothing to slow forced movement. The bullet would simply displace the being instantly. IMO
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Mar 1 2004, 01:30 AM
Post #12


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE
The bullet would simply displace the being instantly. IMO
And since astral beings move at the speed of thought, that would do a whole lot of both jack and Squat, with some extra Zilch for added effect.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
moosegod
post Mar 1 2004, 01:32 AM
Post #13


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,047
Joined: 12-November 03
From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation.
Member No.: 5,818



QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (Entropy Kid)
An astral "bullet" coudn't be a foci of any kind, once it lost contact with whoever it was bonded to it would immediately deactivate.


*Wrong* The focus deactivates once it loses contact to its target (where in most cases that target also is the person who bonded the focus) ...

You could however use a bullet as sustaining focus that sustains a spell cast onto the bullet itself (like a "silence spell" to remove sound emission the bullet would normally create) ... But who has actually got a minimum of 15kĄ per shot and the karma to bond such a focus?
Because once used, the bullet will be "destroyed" and the foucs as such as well ...

Well, I don't think that would work, since the bullet has no aura to bond to.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Mar 1 2004, 02:03 AM
Post #14


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



QUOTE
BitBasher
And since astral beings move at the speed of thought, that would do a whole lot of both jack and Squat, with some extra Zilch for added effect.

I don't understand what you mean. What would do nothing?

Astral beings move their form at the speed of their thought. But if a fast spirit held a slow one, could the faster not move the slower spirit at the higher rate? I say it can. There is no limit to the highest astral speed because no laws inhibit movement when no obsruction is present.

I view the leading edge of the ward hitting the astral being and pushing it aside at the same time unless something prevents the form from moving.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
toturi
post Mar 1 2004, 02:07 AM
Post #15


Canon Companion
**********

Group: Members
Posts: 8,021
Joined: 2-March 03
From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG
Member No.: 4,187



So if a warded vehicle runs into an astral form city spirit, who moves? Which is the irresistable force and which is the immovable object?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Kanada Ten
post Mar 1 2004, 02:09 AM
Post #16


Beetle Eater
********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 4,797
Joined: 3-June 02
From: Oblivion City
Member No.: 2,826



Asking me? The city spirit. Unless it trys to force itself though the Ward, which it can do.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Large Mike
post Mar 1 2004, 02:13 AM
Post #17


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,311
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Calgary, Alberta
Member No.: 2,062




I thought this was covered way back when someone came up with the FAB bat. I believe there were rules made specifically for this kind of thing to not work because it's unbalancing.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
moosegod
post Mar 1 2004, 02:14 AM
Post #18


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,047
Joined: 12-November 03
From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation.
Member No.: 5,818



Balance? bah! Who wants balance?
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Entropy Kid
post Mar 1 2004, 02:43 AM
Post #19


Moving Target
**

Group: Members
Posts: 173
Joined: 4-March 03
Member No.: 4,196



and to complicate things further...

The only existing mechanic for foci is backwards. If the bullet were made into a focus (sustaining, self-targeted as Cochise pointed out) it would be the focus and not the spirit-character-whatever that makes a test at Force (barrier read: thing-being-shot's Force); success equal to half or more Force of thing-shot causes the bullet to pass right through. Less than that and the focus is deactivated. No success and it's deactivated and the thing-shot gets to attempt to destroy the the focus' enchantment. Additionally, what's the force of the barrier? For a spirit I guess it'd be...it's force, but what about magically active characters or critters; Magic or Essence?

That mechanic is no good since everything would be astrally "bullet proof." High-force (in relation to the target) foci would pass through and low force would deactivate. I guess medium force foci would be deactivated, but rarely be destroyed.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Mar 1 2004, 02:51 AM
Post #20


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE (moosegod)
Well, I don't think that would work, since the bullet has no aura to bond to.

Unfortunately the "aura" as such is not the target of a spell ;) Otherwise you couldn't even cast spells against physical objects.
Not even Mana-Spells: The aura is something that exists only on the astral as some sort of mirror picture (and is still intangible there). Spells however only exist on the plane that they're cast on.

The focus would be bonded against it's creator, but the spell would be cast against the bullet.
Since the bullet itself would also be the focus, it would not lose contact to its target
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
moosegod
post Mar 1 2004, 02:57 AM
Post #21


Running Target
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,047
Joined: 12-November 03
From: Perilously close to the Sioux Nation.
Member No.: 5,818



No, I mean that you have to bind a foci to you to use it. Then you have to use it on something living (your mates, etc.)

Bullets aren't alive, and hence have no aura.

Physical spells still work because they cause physical alterations magically.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
BitBasher
post Mar 1 2004, 05:23 AM
Post #22


Traumatizing players since 1992
******

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 3,282
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Las Vegas, NV
Member No.: 220



QUOTE
I don't understand what you mean. What would do nothing?

Astral beings move their form at the speed of their thought. But if a fast spirit held a slow one, could the faster not move the slower spirit at the higher rate? I say it can. There is no limit to the highest astral speed because no laws inhibit movement when no obsruction is present.

I view the leading edge of the ward hitting the astral being and pushing it aside at the same time unless something prevents the form from moving.
I meant the astral form of the warded bullet pushes the astral form harmessly out of the way.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cain
post Mar 1 2004, 06:42 AM
Post #23


Grand Master of Run-Fu
*********

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 6,840
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Tir Tairngire
Member No.: 178



You *could* make the bullet an anchoring focus; but like everyone said, all it would do is displace an astral entity.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Cochise
post Mar 1 2004, 06:52 AM
Post #24


Mr. Quote-function
***

Group: Dumpshocked
Posts: 1,312
Joined: 26-February 02
From: Somewhere in Germany
Member No.: 1,376



QUOTE (moosegod)
No, I mean that you have to bind a foci to you to use it.  Then you have to use it on something living (your mates, etc.)


The use of foci is not restricted towards living beings as their targets ...
You could, put a sustaining focus on the floor and cast "Shadow" over the area surrounded by that focus and then have the focus sustain that spell.

Or can you provide a source telling otherwise?

QUOTE
Bullets aren't alive, and hence have no aura.


Which only means that he potentially uesed spell has to be a physical one ...

QUOTE
Physical spells still work because they cause physical alterations magically.


Lucky me that the "Silence" spell is a physical one ... *Though there are other reasons within the rule why this particular spell might not work*
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post
Zazen
post Mar 1 2004, 07:26 AM
Post #25


Shooting Target
****

Group: Members
Posts: 1,685
Joined: 17-August 02
Member No.: 3,123



QUOTE (Cochise)
Spells however only exist on the plane that they're cast on.

That's a subject of great debate, though. Not everyone agrees with that, nor should they. IMO it causes contradictions later down the road.
Go to the top of the page
 
+Quote Post

2 Pages V   1 2 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic

 



RSS Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 17th April 2024 - 09:50 PM

Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.