guns from astral space Options

[ting-bu-dong]

Hi,
we were playing Shadowrun last night and one question from a player came up and since nobody in our group really knows much about astral physics, I thought I post it here to see what others think of it.

Basically, in the material space everything with mass is solid and energies are not. In the astral space, awakened life is solid but mass is not.

Therefore, there are no guns in astral space. But would this hybrid approach work:

If you coat a gun with awakened dual matter, like a liquid that contains awakened bacteria or so, and use capsule ammunition filled with the same material, could an astral body be able to hold the dual matter and therefore the gun as the gun sticks to the material part of the dual matter? This would allow an astral body to carry this gun which would effectively be dualnatured. Therefore security guards would have to face a floating gun without a visible wielder.

Now, if the ammunition was filled with dual-natured matter too, would an astral body that is hit by this ammunition be harmed as well? Could security guards use capsule ammunition filled with awakened matter to get rid of astral intruders?

The question came up because there is only one character with astral mobility in the group and as an elk shaman he is not very skilled at astral combat. Unfortunately, the main antagonist behind the scenes is an ant shaman that likes to lurk on the astral plane.

Would this work?

tbd

[Herald of Verjig...]

No, you cannot hurt an astral spirit by shooting it like that. There is no inertia on the astral, so the damage a bullet causes does not exist in that plane. Also, life is not astrally solid in 3rd edition.

The only solid astral material (besides wards) are mentioned in Target: Awakened Lands.

[John Campbell]

Personally, I don't see any reason that a warded bullet wouldn't do damage on the astral. There may not be any inertia on the astral, but there is on the physical plane, and the astral form of the wards are directly tied to the physical form of the bullet. Having a ward forced through you doesn't seem like it'd be a lot more fun than being forced through a ward. Best case, it'll push you in front of it at bullet speeds until either it hits something on the physical and stops, or you hit something on the astral and those forcing through barriers rules come into play again.

The astral gun, however, I'd rule against. The way I figure it, if you project with it, the astral form will simply project along with you, and the physical form will stay with your body. This will not produce a usable astral gun, because pulling the purely astral trigger with your purely astral finger won't actuate the physical mechanism any more than it causes your physical finger to move. And even if it did, the bullet wouldn't come out the astral barrel, it'd come out the physical one near your body.

Alternately, you could try to pick the gun up after projecting. Your astral form can't apply force on the physical plane, however, so the physical weight of the gun will pull it down though your hand... and we get to play with the forcing through barriers rules again.

[Entropy Kid]

No, it wouldn't work. Only magical gear (foci etc) go with a character during astral projection. It's also just the magical form of the object, not the physical. An object coated in a dual-natured substance could be used to stop astral fast movement, but not cause damage. If the object were enchanted it would respond to astral combat, but again couldn't be used offensively.

Note, my interpretation of this isn't logical nor based on reality. In the examples of pressing through barriers the ward is bigger than the astrally present character, and the character is moving toward a stationary barrier. MitS pg 83 gives the rules and examples. If an astrally present character fails to completely pass through a barrier they have the choice (if capable) of projecting--essentially getting pushed out of their own body.

Back on topic- a ward on a bullet would only be as large as the slug. If it came into contact with an astral character/spirit, and if one couldn't pass through the other (failed test) they'd just "slide" against one another and the astral bullet would push the projection/spirit asside and continue on its way (probably going off course itself), no damage.

[Lilt]

I'd say No to focus-guns (it's explicitly stated that the nature of the astral plane precludes the use of ranged weapons) but yes to dual natured bullets (active sustaining foci) doing damage to astral entities. I would, however, say that the damage done by the bullet would be based on astral combat with the sustaining focus's strength rather than the inertia of the bullet.

[toturi]

I'll say no to guns as a foci as you have described it. But a yes, to warded bullets. The bullet would push through an astral form, and do damge that way. Theorectically, it is akin to making a very small ward and go running into that ward. You will take damage.

[Entropy Kid]

The target would make a Charisma (Force) test needing success equal to half (rounded down) Force of the bullet-ward. If enough success is made, the ward passes through the target, no problem. If it did get enough success, damage would be (Force*2)D Stun resisted with Willpower (quoted-extrapolated pg 83 MitS) or maybe it'd be disrupted. You'll have to decide if extra net success on the attack do anything.

Now, what happens when a warded physical bullet hits a physical (shapeshifter, cyberzombie, etc.) dual-natured being? A successful Charisma test can't allow the ward to pass through, unless the physical bullet also passes through. If the hit from the weapon is completely soaked does the ward effect the target at all? What about a Light wound? What if the target takes a Serious physical wound (bullet penetrates body?), but passes the Charisma test--they are now only part way through the barrier. Do they engage it in astral combat now? What about initiates with Masking metamagic or spirits with the Aura Masking power (pg. 88 MitS)?

Things to think about if implementing this.

edit-accuracy

[Nikoli]

Another thought, with the FAB coated weapon, you might be able to cast magic fingers fromt eh astral plane and bring it along with you.

[Cochise]

[John Campbell]

[Kanada Ten]

[BitBasher]

[moosegod]

[Kanada Ten]

[toturi]

So if a warded vehicle runs into an astral form city spirit, who moves? Which is the irresistable force and which is the immovable object?

[Kanada Ten]

Asking me? The city spirit. Unless it trys to force itself though the Ward, which it can do.

[Large Mike]

I thought this was covered way back when someone came up with the FAB bat. I believe there were rules made specifically for this kind of thing to not work because it's unbalancing.

[moosegod]

Balance? bah! Who wants balance?

[Entropy Kid]

and to complicate things further...

The only existing mechanic for foci is backwards. If the bullet were made into a focus (sustaining, self-targeted as Cochise pointed out) it would be the focus and not the spirit-character-whatever that makes a test at Force (barrier read: thing-being-shot's Force); success equal to half or more Force of thing-shot causes the bullet to pass right through. Less than that and the focus is deactivated. No success and it's deactivated and the thing-shot gets to attempt to destroy the the focus' enchantment. Additionally, what's the force of the barrier? For a spirit I guess it'd be...it's force, but what about magically active characters or critters; Magic or Essence?

That mechanic is no good since everything would be astrally "bullet proof." High-force (in relation to the target) foci would pass through and low force would deactivate. I guess medium force foci would be deactivated, but rarely be destroyed.

[Cochise]

[moosegod]

No, I mean that you have to bind a foci to you to use it. Then you have to use it on something living (your mates, etc.)

Bullets aren't alive, and hence have no aura.

Physical spells still work because they cause physical alterations magically.

[BitBasher]

[Cain]

You *could* make the bullet an anchoring focus; but like everyone said, all it would do is displace an astral entity.

[Cochise]

[Zazen]