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> High defense builds...., ... not armor stacking
iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 04:09 PM
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As an alternative to armor stacking, i was hoping i could get an analysis of high defense tactics/builds. Here's the way i see it;

-Method 1-
High reaction stat. What's the max reaction a person can get? 9 is the aug max but then you can add 2 other things to increase that (gene mod and something else i believe), so that's 11 max?

-Method 2-
High dodge/gym/unarmred/weapon skills. Add on top of that skill enhancing bioware/cyberware/spells/adept powers such as synthacardium, reflex recorders, improv combat skills, combat sense. I like to call these buffs.

-Method 3-
High modifiers against the enemy. Debuffs baby. Decrease stat spells, thermal smoke, mist, shadow, invisibility. The best debuffs are the ones that help you and harm the enemy.

Ultimately a person wants to borrow from all 3 methods, correctly and effectively stacking them.
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Elfenlied
post Jul 15 2010, 04:14 PM
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QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 15 2010, 05:09 PM) *
-Method 1-
High reaction stat. What's the max reaction a person can get? 9 is the aug max but then you can add 2 other things to increase that (gene mod and something else i believe), so that's 11 max?


13 is the highest for normal people, 15 for ghouls and vampires. 6+Genetic Optimization+Exceptional Attribute+SURGE=9 Base, which equals 13 augmented. Vampires and ghouls have 8 base, but cannot take gene therapies, so it's 10(15) for them.
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iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 04:24 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2010, 04:14 PM) *
13 is the highest for normal people, 15 for ghouls and vampires. 6+Genetic Optimization+Exceptional Attribute+SURGE=9 Base, which equals 13 augmented. Vampires and ghouls have 8 base, but cannot take gene therapies, so it's 10(15) for them.


Cool, then that's 1/3 of the equation done


13 (no infected) reaction+method 2+method 3= profit

I'd like to propose that the max debuff would be -6 (blind equivalent). I mean if you are invisible and throw a thermal smoke nade they can only get a -6 to hit all other vision mods aside. Invisibility +mist would stack but would reach the max -6 for visual tests, correct?

so
13+x+(-6)=profit
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Demerzel
post Jul 15 2010, 04:35 PM
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Don't forget to add to your buffs section Tactical Networks. 6 drones with sufficent sensors, + a rating 4 TacSoft program will yield 4 dice for defense.
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DrZaius
post Jul 15 2010, 04:52 PM
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Also don't forget the Adept Power "Combat Sense".

EDIT: D'oh! Didn't see you mention "Combat Sense" under buffs. Still, 9 natural reaction, +3 from Improved Reflexes, +6 from Combat Sense, and your adept is pretty hard to hit, even before he dodges.

-DrZaius
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The Grue Master
post Jul 15 2010, 04:58 PM
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The Reakt geneware is .4 essence, 30k and provides a +2 modifier to all tests using reaction to defend.
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iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 05:23 PM
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good

13 reaction
+
combat senses +6 (adept power)
improv reflex +3
Suprathyroid Gland +1
reaction enh +3
combat sense spell +hits
increase attrib spell +hits
+
6 thresh mod adjustments from various blinding spells, equip, etc

Now this is in terms of no active defense (ie full defense). I'm guessing the Reakt geneware +2 modifier to all tests using reaction to defend is for full defense rolls only. Correct me if i'm wrong, so i can add it in the equation above.
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iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 05:25 PM
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QUOTE (Demerzel @ Jul 15 2010, 04:35 PM) *
Don't forget to add to your buffs section Tactical Networks. 6 drones with sufficent sensors, + a rating 4 TacSoft program will yield 4 dice for defense.


would +4 be the max? or.. how does that work? for active defense or passive??
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Elfenlied
post Jul 15 2010, 05:27 PM
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The 13 reaction is the augmented cap, i.e. Improved Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers cannot further enhance it. Basically, you're limited to:

13 reaction
+
Combat Sense +Rating
Reaktin +2
Combat Sense Spell +Force/net hits
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iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 05:30 PM
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QUOTE (The Grue Master @ Jul 15 2010, 04:58 PM) *
The Reakt geneware is .4 essence, 30k and provides a +2 modifier to all tests using reaction to defend.


where can i find this?
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Doc Chase
post Jul 15 2010, 05:30 PM
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Geneware should be in Augmentation.
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iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (Elfenlied @ Jul 15 2010, 05:27 PM) *
The 13 reaction is the augmented cap, i.e. Improved Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers cannot further enhance it. Basically, you're limited to:

13 reaction
+
Combat Sense +Rating
Reaktin +2
Combat Sense Spell +Force/net hits


I knew i forgot something, same idea on the skill caps (1.5)
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Draco18s
post Jul 15 2010, 05:42 PM
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QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 15 2010, 12:25 PM) *
would +4 be the max? or.. how does that work? for active defense or passive??


You get +N where N is the rating of the tacnet, provided that you have 3 members that can contribute 2N channels of sensory data.

And you get +N to "anything you can justify."
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StealthSigma
post Jul 15 2010, 05:46 PM
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Isn't stealth a form of defense? Just throwing that out there. They can't hit you if they can't see you.
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Draco18s
post Jul 15 2010, 06:03 PM
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QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Jul 15 2010, 12:46 PM) *
Isn't stealth a form of defense? Just throwing that out there. They can't hit you if they can't see you.


Covered:
QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 15 2010, 11:09 AM) *
-Method 3-
High modifiers against the enemy. Debuffs baby. Decrease stat spells, thermal smoke, mist, shadow, invisibility. The best debuffs are the ones that help you and harm the enemy.

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Belvidere
post Jul 15 2010, 06:41 PM
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It would take some karma gen and initiation but here we go. And I'm going with hypothetical situations here, mainly getting max hits on a spellcasting.

Mystic adept. Magic 9(8[reduced for 'ware]) Adept5/Mage3

Reaction: 13
Combat Sense: 8
Tactsoft: 4
Reakt: 2
Combat Sense Spell: (Overcasted) 6
Deflection Spell: (Overcasted) 6

Not sure if they all stack, but there ya go. thats 39 dice to avoid attacks. You're rolling more than most people are allowed to roll on an attack. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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The Grue Master
post Jul 15 2010, 06:43 PM
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QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 15 2010, 12:23 PM) *
Now this is in terms of no active defense (ie full defense). I'm guessing the Reakt geneware +2 modifier to all tests using reaction to defend is for full defense rolls only. Correct me if i'm wrong, so i can add it in the equation above.


QUOTE
Reakt is a transgenic neurohormone released by the pituary gland during stress, enhancing perception to the degree that movements are perceived as if in slow motion, making it easier to react to situations or incoming dangers. Characters with Reakt get a +2 dice pool modifier to all Reaction Tests to defend themselves (combat, Indirect Combat Spells, etc.). Reaction-linked skill tests, Initiative, and Surprise Tests are not affected by this modification. This effect is cumulative with all other augmentations that enhance Reaction.
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Draco18s
post Jul 15 2010, 07:19 PM
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QUOTE (Belvidere @ Jul 15 2010, 01:41 PM) *
Combat Sense Spell: (Overcasted) 6
Deflection Spell: (Overcasted) 6


They aren't overcast, unless you're playing by FAQ.
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biccat
post Jul 15 2010, 08:29 PM
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You forgot Method 4: Cover.

I prefer a troll.
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Falanin
post Jul 15 2010, 08:38 PM
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For method 2 bonuseseses, you also have a choice of:

Dodge: move-by-wire 3. Total 3

Gymnastics: synthacardium 3, enhanced articulation. Total 4.

Unarmed/blades/clubs/<other melee skill>: Weapon focus. Total (at character creation, with restricted gear) 4.

Any: Improved ability(adept power) and reflex recorder(for appropriate skill) but these are capped at 1/2 your skill rating, total.

Aptitude(quality) helps give you more of the improved ability, etc.

So skill 7+(3~4)+(1~6 [EDIT:1~4, 1/2 skill rating]) added to defense when using full defense.
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D2F
post Jul 15 2010, 08:42 PM
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QUOTE (iategod @ Jul 15 2010, 04:09 PM) *
As an alternative to armor stacking, i was hoping i could get an analysis of high defense tactics/builds. Here's the way i see it;

-Method 1-
High reaction stat. What's the max reaction a person can get? 9 is the aug max but then you can add 2 other things to increase that (gene mod and something else i believe), so that's 11 max?

-Method 2-
High dodge/gym/unarmred/weapon skills. Add on top of that skill enhancing bioware/cyberware/spells/adept powers such as synthacardium, reflex recorders, improv combat skills, combat sense. I like to call these buffs.

-Method 3-
High modifiers against the enemy. Debuffs baby. Decrease stat spells, thermal smoke, mist, shadow, invisibility. The best debuffs are the ones that help you and harm the enemy.

Ultimately a person wants to borrow from all 3 methods, correctly and effectively stacking them.

The idea I played around with was a R8 Pixie Adept, with combat sense 6, Improved Ability (Dodge) 3, Imrpoved Reflexes 1, Dodge 6, Edge 6

That gives you:

Ranged Dodge: 15 dice
Ranged Full Dodge: 24 dice

Melee Dodge: 24 dice
Melee Full Dodge: 30 dice

But there are probably better dodge builds out there.
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Yerameyahu
post Jul 15 2010, 08:44 PM
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MBW bonus is capped in the same way, because it specifically adds to the Dodge *rating*.
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D2F
post Jul 15 2010, 08:57 PM
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QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 15 2010, 08:44 PM) *
MBW bonus is capped in the same way, because it specifically adds to the Dodge *rating*.


I've read that on the adept power and I think I remember reading it as a general rule for skill rating enhancements, biut I can't find it anyomre. You got a quote for me? As far as I can tell atm, the 1.5x skill rating only applies to the Adept power.
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Falanin
post Jul 15 2010, 08:58 PM
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[pulls out Augmentation...]

Well I'll be, It DOES say rating. Thanks. I still like the MBW for biker duels, though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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iategod
post Jul 15 2010, 10:32 PM
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ya, when you get into skills there's no real limit since you could potentially level up your skill with enough karma after chargen. That's why i wanted to stick to passive defense (not full) with chargen limitation at around 400bp. We haven't even touched on the semi passive defense aka two weapon style. Technically it's full defense but passive as well since you can attack without leaving full defense.
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