Questions on SINs Options

[Whiskey]

<snip>

What I gave is a gross simplification really... it takes IAFES quite a bit of time just to go through the fingerprints it does have and even then there's the step of verifying it's findings by human.

Now... should the system be able to handle duplicates? Yea... but does it? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That, is where the GM steps in. If a GM wants to throw it in I'm sure he would, but quite honestly.. if it detracts from game play, then there's no point.

I only gave an idea of why it wouldn't work that way. If the GM wants to say it does matching like that, then more power to him.

Besides, the examples you gave were all ASCII based fields, not image based like what a face recognizer would use, or fingerprints, or iris images, or DNA (which would have to have a fuzzy factor because of SURGE, Goblinization, environmental damage...)

All of which are infinitely more complex then just 4 characters that spell out "sabs", a 10 digit serial number, a 12 byte mac address and a 4 byte IP address all put together.

[sabs]

and the nexus and commlinks in Shadowrun are infinitely more complex than servers/computers we have today.
Your example just doesn't hold water. Especially given how quickly face recognition software works given the RAW.

For a better example, look at Google Search. That's possible today.

[DireRadiant]

I've been thinking about exactly how often SIN gets checked recently. I'm a little unsatisfied with how unreliable fake SINs are, especially if actual checks are as common as "every time you make a purchase" or, god forbid, "every time you pass a cop."

I've got a few ideas for house rules for the SINs to make them more predictable for the runner (In general I work with players that recognize that if your fate's come down to an opposed die roll between nearly-equal pools, you've done something wrong), but I'm liking this thread as a source for what the SIN really entails in terms of information and how often it's checked.

Checking that some has a SIN is different then doing a SIN Verification.

[DireRadiant]

and the nexus and commlinks in Shadowrun are infinitely more complex than servers/computers we have today.
Your example just doesn't hold water. Especially given how quickly face recognition software works given the RAW.

For a better example, look at Google Search. That's possible today.

You are assuming infinite resources and complete access to all data. If that was true then you are correct.

On another level, if what you claim is true, then there is little point to having shadowrun.

You are of course welcome to play your SR game however you want.

Mine's a dystopian future of balkanized states, extra territorial corporations, and full of pink mohawk trenchcoated pixie technomancer company women riding unicorns mounted with autocannons. And they have fake SINs.

[Badmoodguy88]

SINs probably employ a lot of principles of cryptography in the way the system is set up.
The system needs to be highly resilient, and resistant to tampering. The two ways of doing this that are obvious are
A.) building a steel castle filled to the brim with black ice, or
B.) have a decentralized system that is resistant to total corruption or obliteration.

The SIN is in some ways like a receipt. When you get on the bus, the bus records that you were there, but you record it too. When you buy a taco at Bob's, you both record the information. In a world of hackers and two computer crashes, your SIN is not rendered void if one piece of data is off. A checker checks against thousands of sources, a slim fraction of all that is out there to check. Your sin says you bought a Taco at Bob's, does Bob's records confirm this? Your biometric data matches your birth biometric, and your Doc Wagon contract, but does it match your biometric data in the records of the school nurse of the boarding school you went to 10 years ago? Data is EVERYWHERE. And if the checker checks and finds to many things that seem off or if it happens to check that one thing that is just plain off, then it flags your ID as false.

The government holds some of your most important data but the data is in few places and hackers can play marry hell with any government system. Because there are SO many SINs there probably are a lot of admins and a lot with user with privileges to add a new birth or death, and maybe even cancel a death. But that is just the start. Because your SIN moves with you your whole life and it needs to add up. It is a life long credit history, medical history, work history, history of residence, schooling, and a passport.

It is debatable how much of the information is on the commlink or in the SIN number but I think a fair amount is there.

I guess what I am imagining a system where both parties essentially have a bag full of keys. Each piece of data about you is like a key. Alice is a commlink with a SIN. Bob is a SIN verification device. Alice is asked questions by Bob and Alice needs to answer them. Bob has many questions that he asks. Bob also asks Alice to give bob questions. If Bob gets to many different answers to the questions that disagree with Alice's answers, then they have a problem. Bob denounces Alice a scandalous rogue and alerts lone star. Alice tells Bob to stick it up his rating two data hole. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/twirl.gif) Knowledge is newyen in the shadows. I can't see how this would be a Zero knowledge proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-knowledge_proof), but maybe it does not really need to be.

Cryptography is interesting. It is not all about encrypting something with the biggest key you can find. A lot of it is about two parties exchanging data with out reveling more data than they want or being susceptible of tampering.

[Mordinvan]

I always use the 10BP version, which erases everything (you want). But yes, I'm not saying what I described was RAW. It's just anti-abuse house rule, that's all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I agree that it's obviously the best quality there is (not including things like Mystic Adept), and I use it on my characters more than is reasonable.

The general rule is that qualities that don't hurt you don't give you BP, right? Or, they give you much less. You can see what I'm saying. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
In addition, the fluff for Erased clearly says you have *no* SIN, which is a little contradictory for the 5BP/10BP distinction. It clearly says that you can have wanted data you need to function. What a mess. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

To me it means the player is made aware of all records about themselves, and simply chooses which ones get deleted. Only records on servers which never connect to the matrix would be safe, everything else would be deleted through direct hacking, or viruses and worms.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, I'm just saying the paragraphs contradict a little.

I wouldn't say you actually are aware of all records, but instead that the Erasing entity knows what you want anyway (no Criminal, no data trail, etc.); this amounts to the same thing, except you don't get a free channel of data about who's watching you. I also think the bit about 'vital to function' information takes precedence over the 'don't exist' statement, so you do keep your SIN, bank accounts, etc.

I also think it should cost more than 5 or 10 BP, because it is, again, stupidly good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mordinvan]

Right, I'm just saying the paragraphs contradict a little.

I wouldn't say you actually are aware of all records, but instead that the Erasing entity knows what you want anyway (no Criminal, no data trail, etc.); this amounts to the same thing, except you don't get a free channel of data about who's watching you. I also think the bit about 'vital to function' information takes precedence over the 'don't exist' statement, so you do keep your SIN, bank accounts, etc.

I also think it should cost more than 5 or 10 BP, because it is, again, stupidly good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

That last statement I can fully agree with. For fun I made an ghoul mage using karma gen, had sinner, erased, and spent some Karma to initiate then take masking. A little plastic surgery later, and no one will ever know I'm a cannibal, because even IF there was a record I contracted HMVV, there's not anymore.

[Daylen]

REPENT for your ways SINners!

[Mordinvan]

REPENT for your ways SINners!

When you've got erased, why would you?

[kzt]

Besides, the examples you gave were all ASCII based fields, not image based like what a face recognizer would use, or fingerprints, or iris images, or DNA (which would have to have a fuzzy factor because of SURGE, Goblinization, environmental damage...)

All of which are infinitely more complex then just 4 characters that spell out "sabs", a 10 digit serial number, a 12 byte mac address and a 4 byte IP address all put together.

IAFES is an example of an automated system for matching images. It actually works by converting the image into a series of numbers, which it then uses to do fuzzy lookups, Computers get faster a lot faster than population grows, so the time it takes to do searches decreases over time.

And erased is an idiotic property to allow in a game. It would be a LOT easier to just add a few zeros to the end of your account balance in a bank rather then editing the databases of dozens of security services.

[Yerameyahu]

Psh, as if anything in SR makes *sense*.

[Mordinvan]

And erased is an idiotic property to allow in a game. It would be a LOT easier to just add a few zeros to the end of your account balance in a bank rather then editing the databases of dozens of security services.

Like I said, its one of those 'must have' qualities which lets you know its ever so slightly broken.

[Voran]

SR's desire to explain its technobabble to us has always been a perilous (ok, not really) balance with 'just go with it'. One of the first hurdles I noticed was the face recognition issue that others have also pointed out. In a world with crazy fast cross checking ability, how hard would it be to have a subprogram that goes "Hey, why don't I also check to see if this face image comes up on any other SINs we have registered". Its not slow like looking through mugshots page by page in a book.

Then you add things like specific biodata which, assuming matches your cover ID, would also be easily compared to any other SINs with that specific biodata.


Personally, I'd be inclined to downplay whats on a SIN and how much is readily available for checking if you get 'pulled over by a cop'. For example, I got stopped by a cop for jaywalking a few years back (a rookie and a sergeant, so there was NO way I was getting out of that ticket, since I was obviously a training exercise), he asked for my ID then went to go write the ticket, he also asked "You got any warrants?", I didn't but I presume even after I said no, when he went back to the car he did a quick check on my name, came back with nothing suspicious, no warrants. I imagine he also did a cursory check to see if my ID was real.

in game sense, it should be roughly the same, Mr. Troll can I see your ID? and a quick check to see if there are any flags and if the ID seems legit.

in another sense, you know how we can all get those free credit checks once per year? But more frequently and you have to pay? Or if you want to reverse lookup a phone number you can sorta do it, but you have to pay for it? Maybe its like that for SINs. Any corp cop can request and get a 'credit check' that gives them the full run down, but its like a reverse quota thing, they get pressure from the bean counters on how much it costs to keep running checks. So they are encouraged to keep things as cursory as possible.

I realize there's a disconnect in my thinking, as realistically any costs to the corp for 'credit checks' would just get passed on somewhere else to a consumer, but its kinda the principle i'm shooting for.


On the other hand I'm reminded of the scene from Minority Report after Tom Cruise gets new eyes and enters a store that does a retinal scan and says "Hello Mr Asian Dude"


I guess ultimately I'm of the opinion that SIN checks should be done for drama and story purpose as opposed to literally every couple of steps when you pass another remote sensor.

[Daylen]

I guess ultimately I'm of the opinion that SIN checks should be done for drama and story purpose as opposed to literally every couple of steps when you pass another remote sensor.

Ever see Idiocracy? That's what I usually picture for SR but with more cybertech.

[Mesh]

...erased is an idiotic property to allow in a game. It would be a LOT easier to just add a few zeros to the end of your account balance in a bank rather then editing the databases of dozens of security services.

"Security services?" Nah, the data of your typical SINner (not a criminal) is spread out across school systems, neighborhood associations, clubs, consumer activity, ownership records, SpaceBook, myFace, and employer records. You just have to search for it. None of that is hard to hack individually or is necessarily a "security service". Wiping the SIN from the body that issued it? That would be more difficult, but it wouldn't necessarily require hacking. It could be done by someone corrupt on the inside. "Someone corrupt on the inside", now there's a stretch for Shadowrun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So compared to adding 0's to your cred? The stuff above should be easier for the right people.

A criminal SIN on the other hand? Depending on how many agencies it's been disseminated through (which is probably a lot with law enforcement data sharing), -that- could be a challenge.

Mesh

[Mäx]

To get around the duplicate problem, just make sure you different SINs are from different authorities preferaply ones that don't get along.
There are hunreds of countries, hunreds of corps and dozens of free cities that you can have a SIN from that it shouldn't be to hard to not have duplicates in the same system.
And really i think that many completdly legit people actually have multiple SIN:s, one from birtcountry,one from employer and maybe ones from the country you moved into or from former employer.

[simplexio]

When speaking about Matrix 2.0 and unlimited resources you really should read about Big O notation. Finding duplicates becomes fast quite hard even if we assume that it just takes one processor cycle per comparison. For an example finding duplicate ASCII code in database takes from O(1) to O(n^2) r it could just be O(log n), but you need to remember to thats just finding if one ASCII string has duplicate. cross checking 10Mil SIN codes to find duplicates between different databases and checking that all data is same in all instances takes time.

[hobgoblin]

so when its just a on the street check, especially in a high rating area, the beat cops are probably told to keep it short unless they can bring the person in on something (once they are in holding, things can take all the time they like unless a hotshot lawyer shows up).

makes a bit of sense, if one consider a general scan something similar to a matrix wide search under the data search rules.

[DireRadiant]

There are different implications about SIN depending on the questions asked.

Do you have a SIN?
Is this a real SIN?
Does this SIN really belong to to the person in front of me?
Who is the person this SIN belongs to?
Is there a SIN this biometric data belongs to?

There are different steps and requirements to answer each of these questions.

The most common in game one, the "walking around" question is the first. No dice rolls required.

[Warlordtheft]

Because the BBB and Unwired are vague, I handle sins abstractly most of the time. Basically I use the fake SIN's rating as a threshold. That and becuase most sin verification is automatic, i.e. not done by a person, the rating of the verifier is the only dice rolled.

This means that most stores (with rating 1 verifiers) are not going to catch a rating 1 fake sin.
An store with a rating 2 verifier will only catch rarely.
An upscale neighborhood with a rating 3 verifier will catch it most of the time.
A bank doing a background check for loan with a rating 6 verifier will catch it almost all of the time.

[Yerameyahu]

Well. Mostly not (33%), rarely (66%), and most of the time (100%)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just quibbling, but I'd be worried about being caught even 33% of the time.

[Doc Chase]

Well. Mostly not (33%), rarely (66%), and most of the time (100%)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just quibbling, but I'd be worried about being caught even 33% of the time.

How many people use a Rating 1 fake? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

No one, but that was his example, not mine. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Well. Mostly not (33%), rarely (66%), and most of the time (100%)? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Just quibbling, but I'd be worried about being caught even 33% of the time.

I forgot to add it has to exceed the threshold-but you get the point..