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Lachdanan
Really what are they, physically. I'm having a hard time conceptualizing what they are. Are they like an RFID'd card? Something on your Comlink? Something implanted in to you? Does the SIN database contain fingerprints? DNA? Retinal Scans? Pictures?

I know they can be scanned, but can you ever have it not on you?

When you have a fake one have you stolen someone's identity either living or dead? Or did someone along the path have a government contact who created a person who doesn't really exist?
Lanlaorn
A SIN is like a social security number. It's a database entry and while there may be cards and whatever issued, the number is the only important aspect.

QUOTE
Does the SIN database contain fingerprints? DNA? Retinal Scans? Pictures?


Yes.

Also apparently the number itself is a clever algorithm that incorporates your DOB and some other data, so just by knowing the number, not even checking a database, tells a lot about you.
Doc Chase
It's a number that corresponds to a file in a federal database. Nations have them, corporations have them, and possibly even free cities have them. The SIN databases communicate with one another as the identification of a citizen of any nation or corporation is mutually important. I wouldn't be surprised if it was mandated by the Corporate Court and the United Nations as an extension.


The following is conjecture, but it's a fairly logical path to follow.

Attempting to create a SIN involves a mountain of work unless you are an employee of the SIN office in which case you have scripts and algorithms doing the work for you, or you are part of a syndicate, who has large teams of hackers creating fakes and stealing ID's to make into better fakes.

A lot of SINners have died since its inception. Like the SSN's of today, they can be stolen and altered. Having a contact within the SIN office can provide better fakes, but if you don't need something that can pass for 100% real, then you can get a low-level SIN that registers with your commlink (so you always have it) and is verified by your biometric data that can get you into clubs and bars.

Think of a Rating 1 SIN as a fake ID to get you into a bar when you aren't 21. Orks love these, because it means they can start drinking before they're middle aged. It gets you into the liquor store, and the bar.

A Rating 2 may go a bit further. It can get you bus tickets.

A Rating 3 can get you through checkpoints. Out of the Z and into the E. I imagine a Rating 3 can get you as far as a C-rated zone, subway passes and commuter flights. Could carry a sidearm or slightly illegal cyberware without much hassle - the license looks legal! Starting to get serious here. You're looking at a team of guys, or someone with an in at the SIN office.

A Rating 4 can get you into and out of the ACHE without worry, walk around B/A zones without no problems, and could carry decent cyber - the good dermal plating, or basic Wired - or a SMG. Licenced security goon. The specialized stuff that's the best the minors can offer, and the midrange of what the good syndicates can do.

A Rating 5 is good just about anywhere. I wouldn't try it at a federal building, but you're going to be looking good on scanners. Carry betaware and the scanners won't blink. The culmination of weeks of work for a forgery team, and definitely not an identity you want to throw away if you can't help it.

A Rating 6 is good for the government buildings. Carry anything that isn't outright military, and even then you might get away with it if you've got the right security license. It may as well be real - maybe your contact found a SIN that was lost during the Second Crash, and the system doesn't know any better. If you've had this one flagged, you have screwed up.
Heath Robinson
I assume you are asking about SINs as they exist in SR4.

QUOTE (Page 266 @ BBB)
SINless Co nsequences
If a SINless person is arrested, several things can happen. It is not uncommon for the SINless to be horribly abused, locked away, or “disappeared,” as they have no rights to speak of and no datatrail to even prove they exist. Most SINless arrestees, however, are issued a “criminal SIN”— which they are then stuck with for the rest of their lives. That SIN is now archived in multiple law-enforcement databases and indexed with their photograph, biometric prints, DNA records, and tissue sample.


QUOTE (Page 9 @ Unwired)
Who are you?: I.D. in the wireless world
Your System Identification Number is a unique identifier issued to you at birth or any time you change national or corporate citizenship. This identifier (which is not just alpha-numeric) contains basic information, such as your birthdate, birthplace, and other data, encoded within the identifier. If issued at birth, your SIN will be linked to basic biometric data, such as a DNA sample, retinal scan, and finger prints. As you age, additional biometrics such as voice patterns, facial patterns, and hand measurements can be added.
...

Your ID contains all the data necessary to interact with other citizens, government/corporate agencies, and physical or online retailers. Although every issuing country/corp embeds different data on a citizen’s ID, they generally contain your name, age, metatype, a physical description, a current photo, licenses, and are frequently linked to your bank account. Many countries also require IDs to contain your status if you are Awakened or a technomancer along with registries of any cyber- or bioware you have.

Your SIN is linked to biometric data and proves you are a citizen. Your ID is who you are. Together, they allow you to exist in today’s world.


As to what form SIN and other forms of ID take:

QUOTE (Page 266 @ BBB)
Commlinks, Credsticks, and ID
It used to be that one’s SIN and other forms of identification were all stored on credsticks, pen-sized tubes that served simultaneously as ID and credit card. Since the Matrix went wireless, however, all of this information was transferred to the commlink, and credsticks only survive as certified but relatively anonymous means of payment. In addition, all of a person’s credentials and necessary personal data (licenses, credit history, health insurance, cred accounts, etc.) are stored in encrypted form on her commlink (with a default Encryption rating of 5).


I hope that was sufficient.
Whiskey
Hmmmm..... Which means it's possible to reverse engineer it too and use it in a social attack. Call someone up, and when they ask you to prove who you are... hey, you already got something to work with, right there. DoB, Age, Where he/she were born... gender and race I imagine are in there as well. that might make it a bit harder to just grab any ol' SIN off of the airwaves and use it as your own.

LoneStar: Your a 34 years old male troll from the barrens but your SIN is of a female, salish and ... 107 years old. Sir, step out of the car please...

That's when you know your ID guy hates you. smile.gif
Doc Chase
Well sure. Just as the infodump that Heath provided shows, crack the encryption and you've got someone's identity.

However, you can hack the commlink's SIN registry to change those details. The higher the rating, the farther back the hack is going to go.
D2F
QUOTE (Whiskey @ Jul 16 2010, 07:19 PM) *
That's when you know your ID guy hates you. smile.gif

Or he thinks that "ID" stand for "Intelligent Design" nyahnyah.gif
Lachdanan
Thanks for the replys. Another question. Lets say you left evidence at a crime scene; hair, fingerprints, etc..... Now lets say you have a true identity SIN and several fake SINS. What would a search against the evidence bring back?

Are fake SINs really only useful if you have no true registered identity?
sabs
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 16 2010, 07:30 PM) *
Well sure. Just as the infodump that Heath provided shows, crack the encryption and you've got someone's identity.

However, you can hack the commlink's SIN registry to change those details. The higher the rating, the farther back the hack is going to go.


See that makes no sense. Your info isn't on your commlink.
Your System Identification Number is on your commlink.
All the INFO is on public accessable Nodes depending on where your SiN is from.

Officer Jones pulls you over.
1) He asks you for your SiN and you provide it (your commlink, or car provides it, or you actually tell him, how strange)
2) Using that information he hits the UCAS SiN database and pulls up your information. Which he then compares to you.

There should be nothing on your commlink other than the number itself.

Identify Theft is nearly impossible, because your picture,your dna, your retinal scans are part of your information.
I wish to borrow money from a bank. They have scanners that check your retina, and a hair sample against the database to make sure you are you.

Fake SiN's require actually hacking into the database, and into the backups. This is nearly impossible because the public database is a read-only copy that gets overwritten every X days. You have to hack the actual internal database for UCAs, or CAS, or MCT, or Renraku.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 16 2010, 08:45 PM) *
See that makes no sense. Your info isn't on your commlink.
Your System Identification Number is on your commlink.
All the INFO is on public accessable Nodes depending on where your SiN is from.

Officer Jones pulls you over.
1) He asks you for your SiN and you provide it (your commlink, or car provides it, or you actually tell him, how strange)
2) Using that information he hits the UCAS SiN database and pulls up your information. Which he then compares to you.

There should be nothing on your commlink other than the number itself.

Identify Theft is nearly impossible, because your picture,your dna, your retinal scans are part of your information.
I wish to borrow money from a bank. They have scanners that check your retina, and a hair sample against the database to make sure you are you.

Fake SiN's require actually hacking into the database, and into the backups. This is nearly impossible because the public database is a read-only copy that gets overwritten every X days. You have to hack the actual internal database for UCAs, or CAS, or MCT, or Renraku.


I calls shennanigans on your interpretation. Heath's infodump again:

QUOTE
QUOTE (Page 266 @ BBB)
Commlinks, Credsticks, and ID
It used to be that one’s SIN and other forms of identification were all stored on credsticks, pen-sized tubes that served simultaneously as ID and credit card. Since the Matrix went wireless, however, all of this information was transferred to the commlink, and credsticks only survive as certified but relatively anonymous means of payment. In addition, all of a person’s credentials and necessary personal data (licenses, credit history, health insurance, cred accounts, etc.) are stored in encrypted form on her commlink (with a default Encryption rating of 5).


The basics of the SIN are going to be stored on the commlink. It's not a far cry to assume that there's redundancy that can but not neccesarily will be checked since the commlink's got it.

sabs
I call Shenaningans on the RAW smile.gif
the RAW makes /no sense/

Given the speed of information on the matrix. There is /no/ reason to store the information on a commlink, and MANY reasons not to.

Even today your 'ID' doesn't mean anything. It's a piece of plastic that lets officers check the database. Your driver's license doesn't hold anything, it's your driving record in the Police/Department of Transportation Databases that holds all the information.

The RAW in this case makes 0 sense.
Whiskey
May favorite SIN in the hands of my face guy was priceless. Why?

All it ever kicked back for info was "classified, access denied."

Did it actually exist? Nope... hacker got into the cop's car and intercepted the SIN request. smile.gif But man... that and a few good rolls, and we had that poor schmuck thinking we had to off him 'cause he saw my face now. We left him alive and expecting a visit from some agents for a debriefing...

GM casually mentioned there were easier ways to avoid a speeding ticket.

Bottom line: Sin's are useless if you can get into the reader.
D2F
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 16 2010, 07:55 PM) *
The RAW in this case makes 0 sense.

Neither does magic. The key point here is "suspension of disbelief" (ebven though sometimes that is really hard in SR). If the fluff says that's the way it is in SR, then that's the way it is in SR, even if that makes no sense.
Yerameyahu
Actually, your Driver's License obviously has info. Photo, height/weight, eye color, age, plus that 2D barcode, etc.
hobgoblin
whats interesting is that BBB makes mention of a verification system, but, unless i am going blind in my old age, said system is not described anywhere. But, iirc, there was such a system described in earlier editions. And there it talked about querying various databases to see how much they match up to details provided by the person trying to use the SIN.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 16 2010, 08:58 PM) *
Actually, your Driver's License obviously has info. Photo, height/weight, eye color, age, plus that 2D barcode, etc.


As does your passport, or Federal ID should you not be old enough for a DL. Why waste the time constantly accessing the main database when you can have the information there on the commlink?
Lachdanan
I would think it would be possible to have information stored in the SIN itself. If it's a pretty long number, logically in a computer science/math sense you could run it though a world wide known hashing algorithm and the results would spit out relevant data about you.
sabs
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 16 2010, 07:58 PM) *
Actually, your Driver's License obviously has info. Photo, height/weight, eye color, age, plus that 2D barcode, etc.


Sure, but it's basically non-authoritative. And given how easy it is to spoof commlinks, no authority is going to accept your info from your commlink.

The 2d barcode is new, and is a copy of the info that's visible to the human eye on the ID itself.

It's just extremely inefficient and insecure way of doing things.
There may well be a copy of your basic licensing/sin information downloaded to your commlink when you purchase it. But it's not the Authoritative source for such information.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 16 2010, 09:06 PM) *
Sure, but it's basically non-authoritative. And given how easy it is to spoof commlinks, no authority is going to accept your info from your commlink.

The 2d barcode is new, and is a copy of the info that's visible to the human eye on the ID itself.

It's just extremely inefficient and insecure way of doing things.
There may well be a copy of your basic licensing/sin information downloaded to your commlink when you purchase it. But it's not the Authoritative source for such information.


Whaaaa? It's authoritative enough to easily verify physical statistics. If my ID said I was a 3'1" Amerind woman with purple hair, they're going to call it into question, certainly. But it doesn't - it mirrors my physical information at the date of issue.

Why omit it from a commlink when it's been the accepted way of doing things for so long? Recall how long it takes a bureaucracy to change. Just because the medium has altered does not mean the procedure has.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 16 2010, 04:03 PM) *
As does your passport, or Federal ID should you not be old enough for a DL. Why waste the time constantly accessing the main database when you can have the information there on the commlink?


Because accessing the database via the wireless matrix takes no time. No 'real' time that is. It's not like you have to load it up.

They're right. The SIN you carry on your commlink very likely is the System Identification NUMBER. The number is transmitted via the reader to the database the database(( secure as it's governmental/criminal or corp)) Sends the information.

As pointed out by others your DLmight have how tall you are and stuff but it doesn't have your entire criminal record. the cop takes your ID back to the car and punches in your DL number to get all that from the police database. In SR, the 'Reader" is in the cop's Comlink and probably transmits real time info directly to his cop issued cybereyes via AR.
Yerameyahu
I don't think anyone's saying your commlink has your complete SIN record. But that's not the same as *nothing*. smile.gif
Pepsi Jedi
Well I guess the difference is how much then.

Age/ Metatype/ Weight/ Height/ Country or corp that issued the SIN/ Address of residency.

Sure.

Biometric data. DNA, Credit report, criminal history? They're probably querying the Country or Corp server for that info.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 16 2010, 08:13 PM) *
I don't think anyone's saying your commlink has your complete SIN record. But that's not the same as *nothing*. smile.gif


Yes. I'm not sure why criminal records or a complete purchasing history are being assumed to be the basics as I've reiterated the commlink would have several times, but there you are.

Let's go back to the rating of fake SIN's. Commlink-only is basically a rating 1 or 2. It's enough for someone to verify age so you can buy booze. It's an out-of-state driver's license off an inkjet printer.



Johnny B. Good
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 16 2010, 08:15 PM) *
Sin Rating Whatnots


I do not think this is a very accurate representation of how well SINS work. EVERYTHING requires SIN verification, from busses to guns to clubs. Many of these are equipped with SIN verification equipment. The way verifying a SIN works is the verifier rolls its rating against the rating of the SIN. So if you're going to ride a bus (R2 verifier) and you use your shiny new rating 4 SIN, the bus will roll two dice and you will roll four. It's very possible that that shiny new 8,000 nuyen sin will get burned on everyday activities.

I actually did burn my 8,000 Nuyen SIN right out of the gate, trying to tail a wageslave onto a goddamn bus. I got stopped by the bus driver, and the wageslave rode off while I stood outside and scowled.

That being said, I think this system is dumb. I like Doc Chase's system better (Maybe with a little modding to include dicerolls of some sort).

Another question: What prevents the national SIN registry from finding/flagging entries with identical biometric data? Common sense tells me that they would have a system to prevent that.

Also, how much of YOUR biometric data would your average fake SIN include?
sabs
I actually suspect it is /nothing/ except the number itself.
Cops, Corps, Shop Owners, Legal Brothels all have effectively real time access to all your information on their databases, and the public SiN database.

A loan officer at a bank, assuming you even see him in person, is going to send a request to your commlink for your SiN which it will respond with and then turn around access the Public SiN database to make sure you're not a criminal, and to make sure you are you, while at the sametime accessing their internal information on you.

You go to pay for something in a shop, using the ARO interface. You send your SiN, and the shop checks it against the public database, checks your biometrics, does a credit check, and then authorizes the sale.

Given how intergral to modern life the SiN is, there's no way anyone would accept the information stored on a $100 commlink, you picked up at radioshack that your average 12 year old could hack.

Yerameyahu
Even if they wouldn't rely on it, it could still easily be there. It all depends, and, in the end, doesn't matter much. Hell, you'd have lots of that info just on your Facebook in 2070, which would be public-access on your commlink.
Doc Chase
If it were my R4, I woulda got me a refund because it was obviously a hack job and they didn't deliver.

Enough people start screaming that their 'premium' fakes don't pass muster and you'll get a replacement.

Or a bullet, but that's the shadows for ya.

I'd rather see something speed up the opposed rolls to keep the action flowing. Drop a rating 6 SIN to buy a bus ticket, the rating 2 scanner's going to do its usual and see everything is in order. A 6 is going to have covered just about all the bases. A rating 4 scanner might require a roll. Say, the scanner or the SIN has a net of 2 or more above the other, no roll necessary as it's going to go to the higher quality product unless the team decides to 'modify' the outcome in their own way.

Barring that, why not make it the intuition of the schlub with the scanner and the rating versus a threshhold of the SIN's rating? It makes the 4/5/6 scanners well worth the money and time to put them together, and will make them last longer. You're also going to think a lot more about where to burn them. That takes the opposed roll out of the equation and makes it so the GM can just toss a roll, look at it and go yea or nay.
Johnny B. Good
I like that rule. I forgot to mention that we're also using a house rule of rating + edge against the reader. It's great for low rating readers but really doesn't help a whole lot against higher rating readers. Also it makes edge just that much more useful.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 16 2010, 08:22 PM) *
I actually suspect it is /nothing/ except the number itself.
Cops, Corps, Shop Owners, Legal Brothels all have effectively real time access to all your information on their databases, and the public SiN database.

A loan officer at a bank, assuming you even see him in person, is going to send a request to your commlink for your SiN which it will respond with and then turn around access the Public SiN database to make sure you're not a criminal, and to make sure you are you, while at the sametime accessing their internal information on you.

You go to pay for something in a shop, using the ARO interface. You send your SiN, and the shop checks it against the public database, checks your biometrics, does a credit check, and then authorizes the sale.

Given how intergral to modern life the SiN is, there's no way anyone would accept the information stored on a $100 commlink, you picked up at radioshack that your average 12 year old could hack.


No matter the quality of the commlink, the encryption on the SIN module is the same.

And why would being a criminal matter? The loan officer is going to be more concerned about the method of repayment (and the Criminal flag on the SIN number itself is going to be an immediate indicator of yes or no). I'd think he's going to be much more interested in your credit and transaction history - especially the size and frequency of deposits into your account and by which institution.

A shop agent is not going to do a full background check so someone can buy a bag of chips. Stuffer shacks aren't going to deny sales to someone with a Criminal SIN. Their money is just as good as anyone else's.

You do not need a credit check for a straight funds transfer, and the commlink itself initiates the biometrics check the bank wants when the transfer is initiated. All the shop is going to do is check to see the transaction account increase.

Finally, if nobody would accept the information on that $100 commlink, then they would not sell them as that is where the SIN is stored. Joe Q Whitetrash running the Awesome Taco stand is not going to give a damn if you have a 'link you won from the claw game at the carnival - he just wants to see the numbers increase in his transaction account. If it does, there is absolutely no reason to check for a SIN.
sabs
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Jul 16 2010, 09:54 PM) *
No matter the quality of the commlink, the encryption on the SIN module is the same.

You're saying your hackers can't break a R5 encryption?

QUOTE
And why would being a criminal matter? The loan officer is going to be more concerned about the method of repayment (and the Criminal flag on the SIN number itself is going to be an immediate indicator of yes or no). I'd think he's going to be much more interested in your credit and transaction history - especially the size and frequency of deposits into your account and by which institution.

The loan officer isn't checking anything. The automated agents are doing all the checking, and they're following not only Corporate Rules and Procedures, but also Governmental ones where they apply.

QUOTE
A shop agent is not going to do a full background check so someone can buy a bag of chips. Stuffer shacks aren't going to deny sales to someone with a Criminal SIN. Their money is just as good as anyone else's.

Again, all this stuff is completely automated with rules and guidelines that Agents are using, flagging up, etc.

QUOTE
You do not need a credit check for a straight funds transfer, and the commlink itself initiates the biometrics check the bank wants when the transfer is initiated. All the shop is going to do is check to see the transaction account increase.

And file the appropriate sales taxes, enter your purchasing information into their database, as well as the other databases they are automatically updating as part of their multi-faceted marketing drive with the other stores in the Mall.

QUOTE
Finally, if nobody would accept the information on that $100 commlink, then they would not sell them as that is where the SIN is stored. Joe Q Whitetrash running the Awesome Taco stand is not going to give a damn if you have a 'link you won from the claw game at the carnival - he just wants to see the numbers increase in his transaction account. If it does, there is absolutely no reason to check for a SIN.


That depends entirely on how you pay at stuffer shack. If you use a cert credstick, he's not going to bother for your Id or SiN. If you use automatic payment deduction from your commlink ALL that info is automtically picked up by the 'Sales Specialist' agent running his point of sales.

If your SiN information was stored on your commlink, it would take literally less than an hour to create new SiN's for yourself. computer+decrypt threshhold of 5? computer+edit, computer+encrypt? How hard is that. Every hacker in the world would be walkign around with handfuls of fake SiN's at least of quality R3.

Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 16 2010, 09:14 PM) *
If your SiN information was stored on your commlink, it would take literally less than an hour to create new SiN's for yourself. computer+decrypt threshhold of 5? computer+edit, computer+encrypt? How hard is that. Every hacker in the world would be walkign around with handfuls of fake SiN's at least of quality R3.


*facepalm*

Basics.

I'll say it again.

Basics

One more time, because it keeps getting missed.

Basics

Do you see it? Do you? I don't think you do.

What's the average number of hits someone's going to have on a computer+decrypt? Enough to break the 5 threshold? All right. Then they get:

The guy's name. Weight, height, age, birthdate. Issue country of SIN. Bank account info, dating profile, Facebook info because that is stored in the commlink, as stated by the BBB.

They don't have a magic portal into everything. I have never said they do. I have acknowledged that they don't. I am saying the commlink has some SIN data. Enough to qualify as quite likely a Rating 1. I have never said creating a SIN is not difficult. I contend that the syndicates who have the manpower to cover those bases both create and insert their own and convert stolen ones after cracking the biometrics servers or outright paying off someone on the inside. Hackers and other paranoid folks do walk around with a handful of R3 fakes because they need throwaways in case they get caught and being SINless in a secure zone is a death sentence. I have never said it is easy to make a fake and why you continue to insinuate it is completely beyond me. You do realize the threshold on creating a SIN is absurdly high, right?
DireRadiant
A SIN is your identity. It is not needed for financial transactions whatsoever.

Just because your SIN may include some information that can be verified on the spot does not preclude the fundamental third party verification process. This process exists today.

Get pulled over by a LEO and hand them your drivers license. They run it through the system to get additional data. That additional data was not stored on your ID. All those outstanding warrants and sundry other alerts the various law enforcement systems have associated to your ID only came up because of that third party check. On top of that, today, when that LEO runs the ID check, there are various level of checking. Do they run it through the regional association of states? Do they go with nation wide state systems? Do they use the federal systems? Do they use the special databases of particular types of offenders? And then there's the jurisdictions enter the data to begin with, and then the question of whether or not the data got shared or synced to other systems.

That's today. So what happens in SRuniverse?

Same process, except there even more different systems and they do not like to share. A UCAS query on an AZZIE SIN is just going to get back a comfirmation "Yes sir, that really is an Aztechnology SIN. Sorry, no personal data will be given to you on our lovely citizens for you to target them with, Buy Aztech Brand"
Yerameyahu
Sounds right.
DireRadiant
So you got some biometric data... Which system are you going to make the request through? There's thousands and you don;t have access to them all. If the system you have doesn't return the match for the SIN, all that might tell you is that the SIN isn't in that system.

If you got someone's SIN, and then took a biometric, and then ran the biometric check through that SIN database, and got a negative match, that would reveal a possible fake SIN.
Acidsaliva

I tend to use this house rule for my SIN checksSIN Verification
Yerameyahu
It's too bad it's so clunky. :/ Does it play well?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Jul 16 2010, 02:18 PM) *
I do not think this is a very accurate representation of how well SINS work. EVERYTHING requires SIN verification, from busses to guns to clubs. Many of these are equipped with SIN verification equipment. The way verifying a SIN works is the verifier rolls its rating against the rating of the SIN. So if you're going to ride a bus (R2 verifier) and you use your shiny new rating 4 SIN, the bus will roll two dice and you will roll four. It's very possible that that shiny new 8,000 nuyen sin will get burned on everyday activities.

I actually did burn my 8,000 Nuyen SIN right out of the gate, trying to tail a wageslave onto a goddamn bus. I got stopped by the bus driver, and the wageslave rode off while I stood outside and scowled.

That being said, I think this system is dumb. I like Doc Chase's system better (Maybe with a little modding to include dicerolls of some sort).



Just out of Curiosity... Why are you paying 8,000 Nuyen for a Rating 4 (?) SIN? wobble.gif
These things only Cost Rating x 1000 Nuyen normally...
Doc Chase
Meh. I like the autofail/autosucceed rule, but it just means there's no point in having rating 1 or 2 scanners or ID's for anything.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Jul 16 2010, 02:18 PM) *
I do not think this is a very accurate representation of how well SINS work. EVERYTHING requires SIN verification, from busses to guns to clubs. Many of these are equipped with SIN verification equipment. The way verifying a SIN works is the verifier rolls its rating against the rating of the SIN. So if you're going to ride a bus (R2 verifier) and you use your shiny new rating 4 SIN, the bus will roll two dice and you will roll four. It's very possible that that shiny new 8,000 nuyen sin will get burned on everyday activities.

I actually did burn my 8,000 Nuyen SIN right out of the gate, trying to tail a wageslave onto a goddamn bus. I got stopped by the bus driver, and the wageslave rode off while I stood outside and scowled.

That being said, I think this system is dumb. I like Doc Chase's system better (Maybe with a little modding to include dicerolls of some sort).

Another question: What prevents the national SIN registry from finding/flagging entries with identical biometric data? Common sense tells me that they would have a system to prevent that.

Also, how much of YOUR biometric data would your average fake SIN include?


There is a significant difference between showing that you have a SIN and verifying the SIN all the time.

Public PAN areas are simply requiring that you "Clip you ID on your outer pocket so everyone can see you have one". They aren't verifying the SINS with a SIN check every time they see one.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 16 2010, 10:51 PM) *
There is a significant difference between showing that you have a SIN verifying the SIN all the time.

Public PAN areas are simply requiring that you "Clip you ID on your outer pocket so everyone can see you have one". They aren't verifying the SINS with a SIN check every time they see one.


Indeed. Walking down the street and getting 14,000 SIN verification requests for the same number to the same server strikes me as a colossal waste of data.
Mordinvan
Jut reminds me of my favorite combination, sinner, and erased. That way even if you real sin turns into a criminal sin, it changes back again within 1 week, so far as every computer on the planet is concerned.
Yerameyahu
Erased is stupid-good, but the fact that it exists reminds us that the SIN system is hackable (by someone or something), and fallible.
Whiskey
QUOTE (Johnny B. Good @ Jul 16 2010, 01:18 PM) *
Another question: What prevents the national SIN registry from finding/flagging entries with identical biometric data? Common sense tells me that they would have a system to prevent that.


Very simple... the massive amount of data available and trying to compare it all.

Easy way to think of it... I give you 1 million, one dollar bills and tell you two bills have the same number... but I'm not telling you what the number is. How long would it take you, by hand, to find that number?

That's just fingerprints for you. Now, extend that idea to other data. DNA, (here's an another SEPARATE stack for you to check, of 5's), Iris scans (here's a third stack... of 20's) Age (50's), Weight (quarters), race (dimes), eye color (nickles), hair color (pennies)...

And your one guy. Isn't it easier just to put one of each in an envelope and label it with a number, and give that reference number out so when someone askes you, you can pull it up, look in and say, "Oh, he's a 46 year old weighing around 230 with blue eyes and green hair."

Someone gives you one of each and say 'register this'. Into an envelope they go and you give out a new number, then go back to looking at those huge stacks and trying to figure out how to find the duplicates...

Mordinvan
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 16 2010, 03:14 PM) *
Erased is stupid-good, but the fact that it exists reminds us that the SIN system is hackable (by someone or something), and fallible.

It is my favorite must have positive quality. Balance it off with sinner to pay for it, and it becomes even better.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, I feel like Erased automatically erases SINner, and that you therefore can't take SINner. smile.gif But yeah.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 16 2010, 03:37 PM) *
Yeah, I feel like Erased automatically erases SINner, and that you therefore can't take SINner. smile.gif But yeah.

Erased only removes negative material on your sin, not the sin itself. Read the quality closer, its actually a must have.
Whiskey
I wonder if erased can be used like a kill switch on your SIN...

You no longer want a SIN at all. Ergo... Sin dies as it is erased. you would probably lose the erased quality too but who knows. Maybe there's a gremlin that actually LIKES you and has made it's life goal of keeping you sinless.
Yerameyahu
I always use the 10BP version, which erases everything (you want). But yes, I'm not saying what I described was RAW. It's just anti-abuse house rule, that's all. wink.gif I agree that it's obviously the best quality there is (not including things like Mystic Adept), and I use it on my characters more than is reasonable.

The general rule is that qualities that don't hurt you don't give you BP, right? Or, they give you much less. You can see what I'm saying. smile.gif
In addition, the fluff for Erased clearly says you have *no* SIN, which is a little contradictory for the 5BP/10BP distinction. It clearly says that you can have wanted data you need to function. What a mess. biggrin.gif
sabs
Except that it's a computer program, that's running 24/7 that's doing the comparisons. Not some person.
Imagine this: They store DNA information alphanumerically somehow. Tell your Agent to sort all DNA alphabetically, then compare ones that are similar. It's not really that complicated. Right now I have a fairly simple program that does eurythmic checks for duplicates.
It checks:
name
serial number
mac address
ip address (ipv6 and ipv4)

looking for duplicates. It will even show you the items that are duplicate in /several ways/
All without an Agent or AI. Add the processing power and bandwith of Matrix 2.0, and finding duplicate SiN information in the database is pretty trivial. Now admitedly, you don't really need to worry about CAS and UCAS comparing notes with each other, or with Ares. But having duplicate biometrics or information in the same 'database' would certainly be an issue.

Also, given how publicly available your information is, I could see certain types of people having groups of agents and botnets doing id comparisons. If you're in the job of knowing secrets and people, it certainly is worth doing. Course, just because someone knows you have 3 id's across 3 sovereign groups, doesn't mean they're going to do anything about it. Except maybe blackmail you to do some runs.

Five Eyes
I've been thinking about exactly how often SIN gets checked recently. I'm a little unsatisfied with how unreliable fake SINs are, especially if actual checks are as common as "every time you make a purchase" or, god forbid, "every time you pass a cop."

I've got a few ideas for house rules for the SINs to make them more predictable for the runner (In general I work with players that recognize that if your fate's come down to an opposed die roll between nearly-equal pools, you've done something wrong), but I'm liking this thread as a source for what the SIN really entails in terms of information and how often it's checked.
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