Riggers and Untrained Vehicle Skills Options

[Seidaku]

I've heard from several people that with the right cyber, a rigger is better off without vehicle skills. I assume this is due to the VCR's reduction in TN modifiers for defaulting to reaction for vehicle skills while rigging. My question is: is this worth the inability to use the control pool? I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be no use for the control pool if one were to default to reaction for all vehicle skills while rigging. Does this matter, though? Assuming you have a base reaction of 6-7 and a VCR 2, you're looking at a reaction of 10-11 (does the +1 reaction from using a datajack apply?) or more while rigging- only slightly below (or perhaps slightly above) what you could achieve using control pool + vehicle skill (assuming you have the skill at 6).

I've also heard the Encephelon adds something meaningful when defaulting- anyone care to elaborate, if this is true? From the description, I don't see how it would.

If there is anything else that I've missed regarding this subject, please feel free to inform me.

[hobgoblin]

the +1 for reaction when useing a datajack is most likely out as a VCR covers that and more :)

with a VCR in many ways driveing becomes walking as the brain converts vehicle info into body info in a way.

one thing im not sure about tho is your talk about looseing access to control pool when defaulting. when defaulting the skill or attribute you jump to take the place of the skill and adds +4 to the targetnumber (+2 in the scenario of useign a VCR and defaulting to reaction). so your not looseing access to control pool at all. but as reaction have a max natural level (and im not sure the reaction boost a VCR gives adds to the pool) you are better of in the long run with a very high vehicvle skill but at the low end you can do just as well with just the VCR.

whoever said encephalon help with rigging must have been smokeing something.

[Seidaku]

[Modesitt]

You can't use it to augment the tests, but it is certainly still useful for soaking damage to your vehicle. While not useful if you're driving a vehicle that just wont take damage due to armor, it's useful for things like Dobermans getting fired upon by shotguns loaded with ex-explosive rounds and such.

Statistically, if you have a reaction of 12 and are using jsut a VCR, it's about the same as if you were throwing 10 dice at something normally.

[hobgoblin]

hmm, i had missed that entry. in fact i never knew a limit like that was present...

[Siege]

Ya know, that's just wrong on so many levels.

-Siege

[hobgoblin]

what is, that i dont know about said limit or that the limit exists?

[Siege]

The idea that a rigger could be a rigger without any vehicle skills whatsoever.

The logic and mechanics still hold, but it bothers me.

-Siege

[Zazen]

When the target number climbs to 8 he won't be having much fun, though.

But that shouldn't be a concern, right? I mean, it never rains in Seattle ;)

[John Campbell]

When I was playing with the Spartan powered armor, I determined that a powered armor infantryman with a VCR 3 and a natural Reaction of 6, given the modifiers for the VCR, the Spartan's structural agility, the reduced penalty for defaulting with a VCR, and the insanely low Handling those things had to begin with, would, when defaulting to Reaction, be throwing 15 dice at a TN of 2 most of the time. Without dipping into Control Pool. Best he could do with the skill (assuming Walkers (Ares Spartan) 5(7)) is 14 dice at a TN of 0 (functionally equivalent to 2), and he'd be burning Pool dice to do that.

[Modesitt]

[toturi]

Did we forget that you can't default if original TN is 8 or over?

[Modesitt]

Oops. Misread and misremembered it the first time, I thought it said 'Over 8' but it says '8 or higher'.

Reduce all the TN-related numbers in my last post by 1 and it's suddenly correct.

[Moonstone Spider]

"Proper" cyber for defaulting only is a VCR3 and Reaction Booster 6.

That gives a decent human a reaction of 18, a Night one can hit Reaction 20 with a pair of edges to boost int and quick.

Your TN is only 2 more than with a skill, so let's examine some situations. Also keep in mind a VCR decreases the base TN of something by it's rating so the Rigger can default on a test with difficulty 11 (Of course you can house-rule against this, like most rules in Shadowrun it's pretty vauge)

TN 4:
Player with skill can throw a max of 12 dice (Six skill, six pool)
Since the TN will be 1 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 10 successes.

Night One from Hell can throw 20 dice (all reaction.)
Since TN will be 2 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 15 successes. So far so good.

TN 6
TN for skill player: 3, average 8 successes.

TN for Rea: 4, average 10 successes.

TN 8
TN for skill player: 5, average 4 successes.

TN for Rea: 6, average 3 successes.

Thus Reaction can, at best, beat or match skill for TNs up to 7 (7 is technically the same as 6, after all). Above that things get hairy. And that's only if Reaction is boosted to a min-max absurdity.

[BitBasher]

Reaction engancers cannot be used while rigging or decking IIRC.

And to make a fair comparison, the night one could have a skill himself, please compare equal characters when drawing a paralell, otherwise its pointless. Such as a human vs a human, so on and so forth.

[toturi]

[Siege]

Provided you don't specialize in the skill. And I thought Night Ones had a higher Quickness max than standard elves?

-Siege

[Kagetenshi]

Not to mention that above 7 you can't default any more.

~J

[Nikoli]

Actually the Reaction booster cyberware I believe does function with a VCR if implanted with it, basically, if it works on the meat body reaction, no vcr benefit, if it's vcr bonus, no meat body benefit.

[sable twilight]

[Cain]

[Kagetenshi]

Depends on your take on Cultured Bioware. I hit 13 with a human with it allowed, so you could get 14 for a Night One if the GM said yea.

~J

[Utahraptor]

Personally, I look at two things when playing my Rigger:

1) Yes, of course, it is tempting to just defalut to reaction for any vehicle skill, but is it RPly feasible? I mean, I can see using it to run a vehicle you don't come into contact much, i.E. High performence jet fighter, but I don't think a GM would allow a rigger with no background in vehicles, unless he's one of those 'rigger/deckers' In which case your wasiting valuble essence and cash you can use for your decks and software and whatits. :)

2) And remember, fellow Riggers, defualting to reaction on your on vehicle is fine and daddy, but what about other vehicles? Let's say your team needs to get out of the Aztechology Pyrmid in Seattle, and the only way to do that is to hot wire a Bulldog in the Parking Garage. If your going off reaction, the best your probably going to get is 8 dice at a TN of +4, and that's if your have a natural rating of seven AND there happens to be a datajack port. :(

Just thought I'd through my two cents in.

Riggers, /UNITE/!

[Kagetenshi]

*Unites*

I like riggerdeckers. Just get a good rigger, a van with a fixed satellite dish, and then pick up a deck along the way.

~J

[Cain]