I've heard from several people that with the right cyber, a rigger is better off without vehicle skills. I assume this is due to the VCR's reduction in TN modifiers for defaulting to reaction for vehicle skills while rigging. My question is: is this worth the inability to use the control pool? I assume (please correct me if I'm wrong) that there would be no use for the control pool if one were to default to reaction for all vehicle skills while rigging. Does this matter, though? Assuming you have a base reaction of 6-7 and a VCR 2, you're looking at a reaction of 10-11 (does the +1 reaction from using a datajack apply?) or more while rigging- only slightly below (or perhaps slightly above) what you could achieve using control pool + vehicle skill (assuming you have the skill at 6).
I've also heard the Encephelon adds something meaningful when defaulting- anyone care to elaborate, if this is true? From the description, I don't see how it would.
If there is anything else that I've missed regarding this subject, please feel free to inform me.
Full Version: Riggers and Untrained Vehicle Skills
the +1 for reaction when useing a datajack is most likely out as a VCR covers that and more 
with a VCR in many ways driveing becomes walking as the brain converts vehicle info into body info in a way.
one thing im not sure about tho is your talk about looseing access to control pool when defaulting. when defaulting the skill or attribute you jump to take the place of the skill and adds +4 to the targetnumber (+2 in the scenario of useign a VCR and defaulting to reaction). so your not looseing access to control pool at all. but as reaction have a max natural level (and im not sure the reaction boost a VCR gives adds to the pool) you are better of in the long run with a very high vehicvle skill but at the low end you can do just as well with just the VCR.
whoever said encephalon help with rigging must have been smokeing something.
with a VCR in many ways driveing becomes walking as the brain converts vehicle info into body info in a way.
one thing im not sure about tho is your talk about looseing access to control pool when defaulting. when defaulting the skill or attribute you jump to take the place of the skill and adds +4 to the targetnumber (+2 in the scenario of useign a VCR and defaulting to reaction). so your not looseing access to control pool at all. but as reaction have a max natural level (and im not sure the reaction boost a VCR gives adds to the pool) you are better of in the long run with a very high vehicvle skill but at the low end you can do just as well with just the VCR.
whoever said encephalon help with rigging must have been smokeing something.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Feb 29 2004, 07:05 PM) |
| one thing im not sure about tho is your talk about looseing access to control pool when defaulting. when defaulting the skill or attribute you jump to take the place of the skill and adds +4 to the targetnumber (+2 in the scenario of useign a VCR and defaulting to reaction). so your not looseing access to control pool at all. |
The reason I say you lose access to the control pool is because of the following:
| QUOTE |
| p. 85, BBB From Skill to Attribute To default from a base skill to its linked Attribute, roll a number of dice equal to the rating of the default Attribute. Defaulting increases the target number by 4. Players cannot use pool dice to augment this test. |
You can't use it to augment the tests, but it is certainly still useful for soaking damage to your vehicle. While not useful if you're driving a vehicle that just wont take damage due to armor, it's useful for things like Dobermans getting fired upon by shotguns loaded with ex-explosive rounds and such.
Statistically, if you have a reaction of 12 and are using jsut a VCR, it's about the same as if you were throwing 10 dice at something normally.
Statistically, if you have a reaction of 12 and are using jsut a VCR, it's about the same as if you were throwing 10 dice at something normally.
hmm, i had missed that entry. in fact i never knew a limit like that was present...
Ya know, that's just wrong on so many levels.
-Siege
-Siege
what is, that i dont know about said limit or that the limit exists?
The idea that a rigger could be a rigger without any vehicle skills whatsoever.
The logic and mechanics still hold, but it bothers me.
-Siege
The logic and mechanics still hold, but it bothers me.
-Siege
When the target number climbs to 8 he won't be having much fun, though.
But that shouldn't be a concern, right? I mean, it never rains in Seattle
But that shouldn't be a concern, right? I mean, it never rains in Seattle
When I was playing with the Spartan powered armor, I determined that a powered armor infantryman with a VCR 3 and a natural Reaction of 6, given the modifiers for the VCR, the Spartan's structural agility, the reduced penalty for defaulting with a VCR, and the insanely low Handling those things had to begin with, would, when defaulting to Reaction, be throwing 15 dice at a TN of 2 most of the time. Without dipping into Control Pool. Best he could do with the skill (assuming Walkers (Ares Spartan) 5(7)) is 14 dice at a TN of 0 (functionally equivalent to 2), and he'd be burning Pool dice to do that.
| QUOTE |
When the target number climbs to 8 he won't be having much fun, though. |
The reason this works well with Riggers is that the base TN would actually have to be 10, 12, or 14(DEpending on VCR level) due to the fact that VCR's give substantial TN bonuses to the tune of -2 per level. Depending on what vehicles you're using and terrain, the TN can start at anywhere from 2-12 before you start layering on wound and weather modifiers.
By the way, if your DM is rolling for weather...and he rolls nothing but 1's...Just put your gun to your head and kill yourself, no good will come of this run.
Did we forget that you can't default if original TN is 8 or over?
Oops. Misread and misremembered it the first time, I thought it said 'Over 8' but it says '8 or higher'.
Reduce all the TN-related numbers in my last post by 1 and it's suddenly correct.
Reduce all the TN-related numbers in my last post by 1 and it's suddenly correct.
"Proper" cyber for defaulting only is a VCR3 and Reaction Booster 6.
That gives a decent human a reaction of 18, a Night one can hit Reaction 20 with a pair of edges to boost int and quick.
Your TN is only 2 more than with a skill, so let's examine some situations. Also keep in mind a VCR decreases the base TN of something by it's rating so the Rigger can default on a test with difficulty 11 (Of course you can house-rule against this, like most rules in Shadowrun it's pretty vauge)
TN 4:
Player with skill can throw a max of 12 dice (Six skill, six pool)
Since the TN will be 1 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 10 successes.
Night One from Hell can throw 20 dice (all reaction.)
Since TN will be 2 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 15 successes. So far so good.
TN 6
TN for skill player: 3, average 8 successes.
TN for Rea: 4, average 10 successes.
TN 8
TN for skill player: 5, average 4 successes.
TN for Rea: 6, average 3 successes.
Thus Reaction can, at best, beat or match skill for TNs up to 7 (7 is technically the same as 6, after all). Above that things get hairy. And that's only if Reaction is boosted to a min-max absurdity.
That gives a decent human a reaction of 18, a Night one can hit Reaction 20 with a pair of edges to boost int and quick.
Your TN is only 2 more than with a skill, so let's examine some situations. Also keep in mind a VCR decreases the base TN of something by it's rating so the Rigger can default on a test with difficulty 11 (Of course you can house-rule against this, like most rules in Shadowrun it's pretty vauge)
TN 4:
Player with skill can throw a max of 12 dice (Six skill, six pool)
Since the TN will be 1 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 10 successes.
Night One from Hell can throw 20 dice (all reaction.)
Since TN will be 2 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 15 successes. So far so good.
TN 6
TN for skill player: 3, average 8 successes.
TN for Rea: 4, average 10 successes.
TN 8
TN for skill player: 5, average 4 successes.
TN for Rea: 6, average 3 successes.
Thus Reaction can, at best, beat or match skill for TNs up to 7 (7 is technically the same as 6, after all). Above that things get hairy. And that's only if Reaction is boosted to a min-max absurdity.
Reaction engancers cannot be used while rigging or decking IIRC.
And to make a fair comparison, the night one could have a skill himself, please compare equal characters when drawing a paralell, otherwise its pointless. Such as a human vs a human, so on and so forth.
And to make a fair comparison, the night one could have a skill himself, please compare equal characters when drawing a paralell, otherwise its pointless. Such as a human vs a human, so on and so forth.
| QUOTE (BitBasher) |
| Reaction engancers cannot be used while rigging or decking IIRC. And to make a fair comparison, the night one could have a skill himself, please compare equal characters when drawing a paralell, otherwise its pointless. Such as a human vs a human, so on and so forth. |
Bit: It doesn't matter in this case. A Night One or not cannot have higher than 6 in skill anyway. So it is in no way unfair.
Provided you don't specialize in the skill. And I thought Night Ones had a higher Quickness max than standard elves?
-Siege
-Siege
Not to mention that above 7 you can't default any more.
~J
~J
Actually the Reaction booster cyberware I believe does function with a VCR if implanted with it, basically, if it works on the meat body reaction, no vcr benefit, if it's vcr bonus, no meat body benefit.
| QUOTE (Moonstone Spider @ Mar 2 2004, 12:29 AM) |
| "Proper" cyber for defaulting only is a VCR3 and Reaction Booster 6. That gives a decent human a reaction of 18, a Night one can hit Reaction 20 with a pair of edges to boost int and quick. Your TN is only 2 more than with a skill, so let's examine some situations. Also keep in mind a VCR decreases the base TN of something by it's rating so the Rigger can default on a test with difficulty 11 (Of course you can house-rule against this, like most rules in Shadowrun it's pretty vauge) TN 4: Player with skill can throw a max of 12 dice (Six skill, six pool) Since the TN will be 1 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 10 successes. Night One from Hell can throw 20 dice (all reaction.) Since TN will be 2 all non-1 die will be successes. The player will get an average of 15 successes. So far so good. TN 6 TN for skill player: 3, average 8 successes. TN for Rea: 4, average 10 successes. TN 8 TN for skill player: 5, average 4 successes. TN for Rea: 6, average 3 successes. Thus Reaction can, at best, beat or match skill for TNs up to 7 (7 is technically the same as 6, after all). Above that things get hairy. And that's only if Reaction is boosted to a min-max absurdity. |
Your target numbers for reaction based rigging are off.
(all of the successes for skill are skill + control pool)
TN 4 would become 1 with skill (10 successes with skill 6), 3 without (13 successes with reaction 20)
TN 5 would become 2 with skill (10 successes with skill 6), 4 without (10 successes with reaction 20)
TN 6 would become 3 with skill (8 successes with skill 6, 6 successes with skill 5), 5 without (6 successes with reaction 20)
TN 7 would become 4 with skill (6 successes with skill 6, 5 successes with skill 5, 4 successes with skill 4, 3 successes with skill 3), 6 without (3 successes with reaction 20)
TN 8 would become 5 with skill (4 successes with skill 6, 3 successes with 5, 2 successes with skill 4 or 3), 7 without (3 successes with reaction 20)
Since you cannot default 8 or higher, this is the limit of reaction based rigging.
So basically a skill 6 starts to out perform a reaction 20 when the base target number starts to go over 6 which is not all that uncommon (Handling 3 vehicle with +3 worth of situation modifiers), and skill 5 begins to out perform it one step later.
This is all assuming that you can you GM will allow you a starting character that get a reaction 20 (I don't have my books handy right now, can that be done with being restricted to alphaware and non-cultured bioware? Don't forget the datajack.). And a character has to have a minimum reaction of 15 to even keep up with a skill 6 at TN 4.
Let's look at a slightly more reasonable starting character. A rigger with reaction 6 and VCR 3, giving a reaction of 12 while rigged and leaving some (edit: room for some extra cyberware, such as a smartgun link). We already know that a rigger with a skill 6 will out perform this person, but what level of skill will this person out perform?
TN 4 - Reaction 12 vs. TN 3 (8 successes), matched by skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes)
TN 5 - Reaction 12 vs. TN 4 (6 successes), matched by skill 4 vs. TN 2 (6 successes)
TN 6 - Reaction 12 vs. TN 5 (4 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 3 (4 successes)
TN 7 - Reaction 12 vs. TN 6 (2 successes), matched by skill 2 vs. TN 4 (2 successes)
TN 8 - Reaction 12 vs. TN 7 (2 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 5 (2 successes)
So, with a rigger skill of 3 you will pretty much match a reaction 12 rigger without skill in many situation, and a rigger with skill 4 (a level deemed professional) will out perform a rigger without skill in most situations.
| QUOTE (Nikoli @ Mar 2 2004, 09:55 AM) |
| Actually the Reaction booster cyberware I believe does function with a VCR if implanted with it, basically, if it works on the meat body reaction, no vcr benefit, if it's vcr bonus, no meat body benefit. |
Correct. You can even have Wired and VCR in the same person, assuming you can afford the essence.
However, only the VCR bonus to reaction counts while rigged or calculating the Control Pool. So, for a legal starting rigger, 13 is pretty much the maximum reaction you can have.
Depends on your take on Cultured Bioware. I hit 13 with a human with it allowed, so you could get 14 for a Night One if the GM said yea.
~J
~J
Personally, I look at two things when playing my Rigger:
1) Yes, of course, it is tempting to just defalut to reaction for any vehicle skill, but is it RPly feasible? I mean, I can see using it to run a vehicle you don't come into contact much, i.E. High performence jet fighter, but I don't think a GM would allow a rigger with no background in vehicles, unless he's one of those 'rigger/deckers' In which case your wasiting valuble essence and cash you can use for your decks and software and whatits.
2) And remember, fellow Riggers, defualting to reaction on your on vehicle is fine and daddy, but what about other vehicles? Let's say your team needs to get out of the Aztechology Pyrmid in Seattle, and the only way to do that is to hot wire a Bulldog in the Parking Garage. If your going off reaction, the best your probably going to get is 8 dice at a TN of +4, and that's if your have a natural rating of seven AND there happens to be a datajack port.
Just thought I'd through my two cents in.
Riggers, /UNITE/!
1) Yes, of course, it is tempting to just defalut to reaction for any vehicle skill, but is it RPly feasible? I mean, I can see using it to run a vehicle you don't come into contact much, i.E. High performence jet fighter, but I don't think a GM would allow a rigger with no background in vehicles, unless he's one of those 'rigger/deckers' In which case your wasiting valuble essence and cash you can use for your decks and software and whatits.
2) And remember, fellow Riggers, defualting to reaction on your on vehicle is fine and daddy, but what about other vehicles? Let's say your team needs to get out of the Aztechology Pyrmid in Seattle, and the only way to do that is to hot wire a Bulldog in the Parking Garage. If your going off reaction, the best your probably going to get is 8 dice at a TN of +4, and that's if your have a natural rating of seven AND there happens to be a datajack port.
Just thought I'd through my two cents in.
Riggers, /UNITE/!
*Unites*
I like riggerdeckers. Just get a good rigger, a van with a fixed satellite dish, and then pick up a deck along the way.
~J
I like riggerdeckers. Just get a good rigger, a van with a fixed satellite dish, and then pick up a deck along the way.
~J
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Depends on your take on Cultured Bioware. I hit 13 with a human with it allowed, so you could get 14 for a Night One if the GM said yea. |
Yeah, I didn't include it. Strict canon, you can have a Night One with Int 6 and Quickness 9 (bonus attribute point), for a base reaction of 7. With the +6 from a VCR 3, that's where I got the 13 from.
The only 'ware that helps a Rigger's reaction, other than the VCR, is the cerebral booster. By very strict canon, you can't have it; but if we allow it, then the +2 Int equals +1 Reaction, getting us to a 14.
If the cerebral booster works, shouldn't the encephalon work as well?
-Siege
-Siege
Encephalon only adds to INT for purposes of calculating skill costs, not for any other application.
~J
~J
Since starting reactions of 13 and 14 have been brought up I figured I would run the numbers on those as well.
TN 4 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 3 (8 successes), matched by skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes)
TN 5 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 4 (6 successes), matched by skill 4 vs. TN 2 (6 successes)
TN 6 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 5 (4 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 3 (4 successes)
TN 7 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 6 (2 successes), matched by skill 2 vs. TN 4 (2 successes)
TN 8 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 7 (2 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 5 (2 successes)
That about matches the breakdown for reaction 12.
TN 4 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 3 (9 successes), a little better then skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes), a little worse then skill 6 vs. TN 2 (10 successes)
TN 5 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 4 (7 successes), a little better then skill 4 vs. TN 2 (6 successes), a little worse then skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes)
TN 6 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 5 (4 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 3 (4 successes)
TN 7 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 6 (2 successes), matched by skill 2 vs. TN 4 (2 successes)
TN 8 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 7 (2 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 5 (2 successes)
A little better then reaction 13, but I would rather spend the points it costs for being a variant on extra skill points.
TN 4 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 3 (8 successes), matched by skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes)
TN 5 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 4 (6 successes), matched by skill 4 vs. TN 2 (6 successes)
TN 6 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 5 (4 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 3 (4 successes)
TN 7 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 6 (2 successes), matched by skill 2 vs. TN 4 (2 successes)
TN 8 - Reaction 13 vs. TN 7 (2 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 5 (2 successes)
That about matches the breakdown for reaction 12.
TN 4 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 3 (9 successes), a little better then skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes), a little worse then skill 6 vs. TN 2 (10 successes)
TN 5 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 4 (7 successes), a little better then skill 4 vs. TN 2 (6 successes), a little worse then skill 5 vs. TN 2 (8 successes)
TN 6 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 5 (4 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 3 (4 successes)
TN 7 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 6 (2 successes), matched by skill 2 vs. TN 4 (2 successes)
TN 8 - Reaction 14 vs. TN 7 (2 successes), matched by skill 3 vs. TN 5 (2 successes)
A little better then reaction 13, but I would rather spend the points it costs for being a variant on extra skill points.
Actually, unless I miss my guess, the Cerebral boosters indirect addition of reaction by intelligence is allow according to Rigger 3.
I'm not sure I understand your post, Utahraptor. It is allowed; was someone saying it wasn't?
~J
~J
Just out curiousity are people applying mods for unfamilair vehicles (when apriopate) cos if you don't have a car skill then (in my eyes) ANY car will be unfamilair.
Cain stated that by strict canon, it wasn't allowed. I think that's incorrect.
| QUOTE (Utahraptor) |
| Cain stated that by strict canon, it wasn't allowed. I think that's incorrect. |
Yes, I think that is incorrect as well. I've not seen anything to suggest that cerebral boosters are incompatible with VCRs with respect to Reaction. In fact, Canon clearly states that CBs affect Reaction as well as Dice Pools.
| QUOTE (toturi) | ||
Yes, I think that is incorrect as well. I've not seen anything to suggest that cerebral boosters are incompatible with VCRs with respect to Reaction. In fact, Canon clearly states that CBs affect Reaction as well as Dice Pools. |
He was referring to the fact that cerebral boosters are cultured bioware, which is, by canon, unavailable at character creation (it requires beta clinics, I believe)
I was not aware that it was a chargen char.
The rule against cultured bioware is in the FAQ, and is thus (say it with me folks) not canon!
~J
~J
Which is why I said "strict" canon. Practical canon reads, it's much more allowable.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| The rule against cultured bioware is in the FAQ, and is thus (say it with me folks) not canon! ~J |
It was added to the last Man and Machine errata, though it's listed as a "recommendation".
In addition to the indirect boost to Reaction, the benefit the Encephalon gives a rigger is listed in Rigger 2, page 17.
| QUOTE |
| ... Furthermore, the unique nature of the encephalon enables riggers to use Driving skillsofts without the need for skillwires for the purposes of rigging. Characters [who have VCRs] without encephalons cannot use skillsofts without skillwires. |
I have seen no rulings in either Rigger 3.0 or Rigger Redux to refute this, though there might be some issue as to how high those skillsofts can possibly go - a house rule my former group had was the skillsoft could equal double the VCR's rating + 2.
However, some might write this rule write out.
| QUOTE |
| I have seen no rulings in either Rigger 3.0 or Rigger Redux to refute this... |
Page 27, R3, "Skillwires and Activesofts". Riggers cannot use activesofts while jacked in.
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