Stick and Shock - rehash, More effective than bullets, all the time? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Nope, Stun would be 6+Will/2, right?

[Traul]

The Arsenal errata ofcource.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

And when is the errata's errata expected?

[Mäx]

That's what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) S&S wins.

Care to post some fact, becouse it really doesn't.

Traul:Most likely never.
Sheshyr: Those are a good basis as any.

[StealthSigma]

Nope, Stun would be 6+Will/2, right?

Both tracks are (8 + Stat/2)

[Cheshyr]

Both tracks are (8 + Stat/2)

(8 + Stat/2) rounded up.

Sorry guys, I'm done. I've posted my closing thoughts at the bottom of page 4. I may post a graph to make it easier to visualize, but there's no point in continuing this if the results are irrelevant.

[DrZaius]

I've got my example up comparing SnS to ExEx. As an aside, SnS is very effective when used during suppressive fire.

-DrZaius

[Yerameyahu]

Thanks StealthSigma, just checking. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cheshyr]

Here's a link to the chart that summarizes the spreadsheet.

[Mäx]

Here's the chart that summarizes the spreadsheet:
[img]http://www.diffpair.com/misc/SnS-Damage-Comparisons.png[/img]

they dont allow images here.

[Cheshyr]

they dont allow images here.

Thanks. I was curious. Removing it.

Am I allowed to link it still?

[Yerameyahu]

Well, copy paste into your address bar. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

Okay, there is a really simple way of telling if SnS is better than APDS for any given weapon. Okay, maybe not quite simple, but here you go.

[ Spoiler ]

Light Pistol
Base damage: 4
Base AP:0
AP with APDS: -4
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
SnS base damage: 6
For SnS to be equally as effective than APDS, the target would have to have Impact armor equal to (B+2)*2 In other words if Balistic armor was 10, impact would need to be 24 to make APDS the better choice (Not counting secondary effects)

Holdout
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
I = (B+2)*2
10/24 or 20/44 for example

Heavy Pistol
Adjusted Damage: 6.666
I = (B-2)*2
10/16 or 20/36 for example

Machine Pistol
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
I = (B+2)*2
10/24 or 20/44 for example

Submachine Gun
Adjusted Damage: 6.333
I = (B-1)*2
10/18 or 20/38 for example

Assault Rifle
Adjusted Damage: 7.666
I = (B-5)*2
10/10 or 20/30 for example

Sports Rifle
Adjusted Damage:8.666
I = (B-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) *2
10/4 or 20/24

Sniper Rifle
Adjusted Damage:10.333
I = (B-13)*2
20/14 for example (Any B armor of under 13 makes the APDS more effective)

Shotgun
Adjusted Damage: 8.666
I= (B-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) *2
10/4 or 20/24

LMG
See Assault Rifle

MMG
Adjusted Damage: 8
I = (B-6)*2
10/8 or 20/28

HMG
Adjusted Damage: 9.333
I = (B-10)*2
10/0 or 20/20

So, there you have it, the exact actual ratio required on the opponents armor in order to make APDS (And EX-EX and flechette for that matter) do the same damage as SnS on every type of gun that can have SnS ammo. Other stats are irrelevant, because they will adjust the damage the same regardless of the type of ammo fired. Remember that this is only a comparison of damage, and doesn't take the SnS's two secondary effects into account.

As the data clearly shows, a high armor opponent is basically always going to favor you using SnS ammo regardless of weapon type, and all weapons except the HMG, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, and sports rifle are generally going to favor SnS ammo unless you are dealing with some exceedingly weird armor values.

There, now the exact numbers have been laid out, it has been statistically shown that SnS ammo is better than other forms of ammo under most circumstances.

Edit: Oh, and for non-conductivity, just drop the Impact requirement by 2 for each rating worth of non-conductivity. SnS is still generally a good choice if the opponent is highly armored (Which they likely will be if they are forking out for non-conductivity)

[Cheshyr]

Okay, there is a really simple way of telling if SnS is better than APDS for any given weapon. Okay, maybe not quite simple, but here you go.

[ Spoiler ]

Light Pistol
Base damage: 4
Base AP:0
AP with APDS: -4
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
SnS base damage: 6
For SnS to be equally as effective than APDS, the target would have to have Impact armor equal to (B+2)*2 In other words if Balistic armor was 10, impact would need to be 24 to make APDS the better choice (Not counting secondary effects)

Holdout
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
I = (B+2)*2
10/24 or 20/44 for example

Heavy Pistol
Adjusted Damage: 6.666
I = (B-2)*2
10/16 or 20/36 for example

Machine Pistol
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
I = (B+2)*2
10/24 or 20/44 for example

Submachine Gun
Adjusted Damage: 6.333
I = (B-1)*2
10/18 or 20/38 for example

Assault Rifle
Adjusted Damage: 7.666
I = (B-5)*2
10/10 or 20/30 for example

Sports Rifle
Adjusted Damage:8.666
I = (B-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) *2
10/4 or 20/24

Sniper Rifle
Adjusted Damage:10.333
I = (B-13)*2
20/14 for example (Any B armor of under 13 makes the APDS more effective)

Shotgun
Adjusted Damage: 8.666
I= (B-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) *2
10/4 or 20/24

LMG
See Assault Rifle

MMG
Adjusted Damage: 8
I = (B-6)*2
10/8 or 20/28

HMG
Adjusted Damage: 9.333
I = (B-10)*2
10/0 or 20/20

So, there you have it, the exact actual ratio required on the opponents armor in order to make APDS (And EX-EX and flechette for that matter) do the same damage as SnS on every type of gun that can have SnS ammo. Other stats are irrelevant, because they will adjust the damage the same regardless of the type of ammo fired. Remember that this is only a comparison of damage, and doesn't take the SnS's two secondary effects into account.

As the data clearly shows, a high armor opponent is basically always going to favor you using SnS ammo regardless of weapon type, and all weapons except the HMG, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, and sports rifle are generally going to favor SnS ammo unless you are dealing with some exceedingly weird armor values.

There, now the exact numbers have been laid out, it has been statistically shown that SnS ammo is better than other forms of ammo under most circumstances.

I was just about to post something that showed similar results: link.

It appears we came to identical conclusions from separate directions. I think that might give this some validity.

[Karoline]

I was just about to post something that showed similar results: link.

It appears we came to identical conclusions from separate directions. I think that might give this some validity.

Yep, fairly similar results. Yours is a bit easier to see visually, but mine provides a bit more useful information, because it tells you the exact point at which SnS ammo becomes more/less effective than another kind of ammo.

Go team 'SnS is overpowered'!

[Yerameyahu]

Confirming what everyone already knew. Science!

[Ryu]

Okay, there is a really simple way of telling if SnS is better than APDS for any given weapon. Okay, maybe not quite simple, but here you go.

[ Spoiler ]

Light Pistol
Base damage: 4
Base AP:0
AP with APDS: -4
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
SnS base damage: 6
For SnS to be equally as effective than APDS, the target would have to have Impact armor equal to (B+2)*2 In other words if Balistic armor was 10, impact would need to be 24 to make APDS the better choice (Not counting secondary effects)

Holdout
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
I = (B+2)*2
10/24 or 20/44 for example

Heavy Pistol
Adjusted Damage: 6.666
I = (B-2)*2
10/16 or 20/36 for example

Machine Pistol
Adjusted Damage: 5.333
I = (B+2)*2
10/24 or 20/44 for example

Submachine Gun
Adjusted Damage: 6.333
I = (B-1)*2
10/18 or 20/38 for example

Assault Rifle
Adjusted Damage: 7.666
I = (B-5)*2
10/10 or 20/30 for example

Sports Rifle
Adjusted Damage:8.666
I = (B-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) *2
10/4 or 20/24

Sniper Rifle
Adjusted Damage:10.333
I = (B-13)*2
20/14 for example (Any B armor of under 13 makes the APDS more effective)

Shotgun
Adjusted Damage: 8.666
I= (B-(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif) *2
10/4 or 20/24

LMG
See Assault Rifle

MMG
Adjusted Damage: 8
I = (B-6)*2
10/8 or 20/28

HMG
Adjusted Damage: 9.333
I = (B-10)*2
10/0 or 20/20

So, there you have it, the exact actual ratio required on the opponents armor in order to make APDS (And EX-EX and flechette for that matter) do the same damage as SnS on every type of gun that can have SnS ammo. Other stats are irrelevant, because they will adjust the damage the same regardless of the type of ammo fired. Remember that this is only a comparison of damage, and doesn't take the SnS's two secondary effects into account.

As the data clearly shows, a high armor opponent is basically always going to favor you using SnS ammo regardless of weapon type, and all weapons except the HMG, Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, and sports rifle are generally going to favor SnS ammo unless you are dealing with some exceedingly weird armor values.

There, now the exact numbers have been laid out, it has been statistically shown that SnS ammo is better than other forms of ammo under most circumstances.

Edit: Oh, and for non-conductivity, just drop the Impact requirement by 2 for each rating worth of non-conductivity. SnS is still generally a good choice if the opponent is highly armored (Which they likely will be if they are forking out for non-conductivity)

If everyone was using shocker ammo, everyone should invest into non-conductivity first, heavier armor second. It is a viable option, but not dominant. My GM recently demonstrated the use of tasers... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mäx]

Lets go with an actual numbers of worn armor and not using FFBA.
Body 1 max armor 2/2 APDS is -2 S&S is -1
Body 2 max armor 4/4 APDS is -4 S&S is -2
Body 3 max armor 6/6 APDS is -4(min) S&S is -3
Body 4 max armor 8/8 APDS is -4(min) S&S is -4 this is the point where they are just as good for armor penetration when fired from a hold out,light pistol,machinepistol or SMG
Body 5 max armor 10/10 S&S is -5 need -1 point of base AP to match with APDS for example heavy pistol,AR or shotgun
Body 6 max armor 12/12 S&S is -6 need -2 point of base AP to match with APDS for example MMG or Warhawk
Body 7 max armor 14/14 S&S is -7 need -3 point of base AP to match with APDS for example HMG or most of the sniper rifles
Body 8 max armor 16/16 S&S is -8 need -4 point of base AP to match with APDS for example Barret
Body 9 max armor 18/18 S&S is -9 need -5 point of base AP to match with APDS for example Assault cannon
After that there are no weapons with high enought base AP to match S&S AP(except those witch also have -half and those are obviously ganna have same AP as S&S for all amounts of body), but those weapons from the latter half of the list have better base damage and as damage equals on avarage 3 points of AP that means that the badguy needs 3 more body per point of DV over 6 for S&S to pe better.

So really S&S isn't that super duper good.

[Yerameyahu]

You rarely have equal B and I ratings, and I forgot what page it says that APDS causes drool mode or automatic stacking -2 to all actions?

[Mäx]

You rarely have equal B and I ratings, and I forgot what page it says that APDS causes drool mode or automatic stacking -2 to all actions?

You all keeping talking about the incapasitated think like its some sort of god mode, but even a guy with avarage human stats and 6 points of impact armor isn't ever gonna suffer it on avarage, its rare enought that it can be ingnored.
And who cares about minus 2 to actions when the mook is most likely dead anyway form the 2-4 shots/bursts you hit him with and if he isn't then he most likely has big enought dice pools that the -2 isn't gonna affect him too much.

[Karoline]

Lets go with an actual numbers of worn armor and not using FFBA.

I provided an exact formula for determining at what point the two are equal on any given weapon. And I don't know what actual numbers of worn armor you are using, virtual every armor in the book has an impact rating 2 lower than the ballistic rating.

Body 4 max armor 8/8 APDS is -4(min) S&S is -4 this is the point where they are just as good for armor penetration when fired from a hold out,light pistol,machinepistol or SMG

True, but armor penetration isn't important, it is prospected damage. Yes, armor penetration is just as good for a light pistol with APDS and SnS, but the base damage is 2 higher for the SnS

So really S&S isn't that super duper good.

Did you even look at the stuff under the spoiler? It fairly directly shown that it is 'super duper good' in nearly all cases. AP does not equal damage potential for a weapon, you also have to take into account the damage of the weapon itself. Your chart is only useful for determining when something that doesn't matter is the same. Well, not doesn't matter, AP does matter, but it isn't what it is important, it is simply one component that is used to determine the thing that is in fact important.

You all keeping talking about the incapasitated think like its some sort of god mode, but even a guy with avarage human stats and 6 points of impact armor isn't ever gonna suffer it on avarage, its rare enought that it can be ingnored.
And who cares about minus 2 to actions when the mook is most likely dead anyway form the 2-4 shots/bursts you hit him with and if he isn't then he most likely has big enought dice pools that the -2 isn't gonna affect him too much.

I would call a 50/50 chance to instantly take down someone for at least 4 turns fairly good. I would also call the ability to throw a -2 penalty on someone fairly good. You don't always kill everything in one shot (It's why you invest in armor). It's good for minimizing counterattack damage, and is great for helping take down really powerful foes (like other runners).

[Cheshyr]

We've presented our numbers. Some people don't believe they accurately represent the situation. There is no quick answer to this, and in the end we're looking at game-table preference anyway. Unless someone is going to take the time to do the full de rigueur, we're at a standstill. Until then, it appears there are places where SnS is a significant improvement over normal ammo, at minimal cost. I say minimal, because really... how many of your actually worry that you won't be able to afford ammo?

Thanks for participating.

[Karoline]

I think mine is fairly rigorous, it directly compares the damage potential of each weapon with SnS ammo and with APDS (Which is the same as EXEX and Felechette). Since the goal of a weapon is to deal damage, the ability to deal damage really is the ultimate comparison, since any other function of the weapon can be preformed equally well regardless of if it has SnS ammo or some other kind, and anything that can be done to improve the damage of one kind of ammo would equally improve the other kinds of ammo.

I really don't know how much more rigorous you want than an exact number provided for each weapon of when SnS ammo is better or worse than other kinds of ammo.

[Mäx]

And I don't know what actual numbers of worn armor you are using, virtual every armor in the book has an impact rating 2 lower than the ballistic rating.

All of those armor values can be had, i made extra sure of that while making that post.

True, but armor penetration isn't important, it is prospected damage. Yes, armor penetration is just as good for a light pistol with APDS and SnS, but the base damage is 2 higher for the SnS

Nothink actually stops you from using better weapons agains even those low body guys and then you actually have better AP and DV using APDS over S&S. And really the light pistol is the ugly redhead stepchild of the SR4 weapon system.

AP does not equal damage potential for a weapon, you also have to take into account the damage of the weapon itself. Your chart is only useful for determining when something that doesn't matter is the same. Well, not doesn't matter, AP does matter, but it isn't what it is important, it is simply one component that is used to determine the thing that is in fact important.

Yeah and there at the body 5 and up those guns that have the same AP also start to have same or better DV then S&S, so how exactly is S&S better.

[Karoline]

All of those armor values can be had, i made extra sure of that while making that post.

'can be had' and 'are generally seen' are very different. What is generally seen is impact armor two lower than ballistic, and that isn't even counting the 3 points that most PCs would have from FFBA

Nothink actually stops you from using better weapons agains even those low body guys and then you actually have better AP and DV using APDS over S&S. And really the light pistol is the ugly redhead stepchild of the SR4 weapon system.

Okay, so what is your point, you can use sniper rifles on unarmored opponents to great effect? That's something I've been saying from the start. And no, the light pistol is great for infiltration, perhaps the heavy pistol packs a bit more punch, but that is part of my point, the fact that the heavy pistol packs more punch makes no difference when using SnS ammo, so besides the very slight range increase, why would you sneak in a heavy pistol over a light pistol when using SnS ammo? And really, why would you use an assault rifle over a light pistol when you have SnS ammo? They are both equally effective (Except for things like burst fire and larger clips, which are admittedly a fairly big deal, but if you're interested in being inconspicuous at all...)

Yeah and there at the body 5 and up those guns that have the same AP also start to have same or better DV then S&S, so how exactly is S&S better.

My point is that your graph doesn't show anything useful. Your graph doesn't show that extra DV, and it certainly doesn't show anything about when SnS is more useful than other ammo. All it shows is that at an arbitrarily determined armor value, APDS has more or less AP than SnS ammo, which shows nothing useful.

I don't know why I'm arguing with you about this. You're obviously determined to utterly ignore any and all proof that SnS is in any way better than other ammo. If you don't see a problem, then don't worry about it in your game, but don't claim that it isn't powerful without providing something that actually shows it.

[Yerameyahu]

I especially liked where he said that a free -2 penalty to everything isn't important 'because they'd already be dead'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Even though the S&S damage is essentially equal under almost every circumstance, which means that -2 is always pure gravy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)