Dronomancer/Technomancer questions Options

[Wasabi]

Just remember most actions takes longer when using Command to do them.

Control Device, p229 SR4A: "Note that if the action to be performed is normally a Simple Action, performing it through the Control Device action is still a Complex Action."

[Saint Sithney]

Anything less than a full burst is a cop-out. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ork.gif)

[MortVent]

With command being a complex action, most will use focus fire rules on drones

Group A focus attacks on target C
Group B focus attacks on target R

Another thing is many will simply use a script on the drones, where they are given targeting parameters and operations to do on a set signal (think IC/Agent scripting)

If target takes a single round with minimal damage, upgrade to narrow burst fire, loop to full auto narrow

So the rigger sends a simple action to transmit target id and the drones operate by their scripts

[Udoshi]

Thats just blatandly wrong, smartlink is a vision enchament and as such can be had in anythink that takes those including contact lenses.

Sorry, yes, I should clarify what i meant. As a cyberware system, the only way to get it is through eyeware - no capacity in cyberlimbs, for example.

[Karoline]

It does not replace it. The echo is -far- superior.

A control rig is a cyberware only piece of headware(0.5 essence/10K) that provides +2 dice to all Vehicle tests while Jumped in.
Immersion is an echo that grants a technomancer a +1 dice pool bonus for all tests while he is "jumped in" and may be taken twice.

And yet, 2 karma for a CF is far cheaper than the cost of two submersions to get the two echos. So sure, the CF wouldn't 'replace' the echo, it would just be about 1/15th the cost for about 9/10ths of the benefit (Remember that gunnery is a vehicle skill)

[Yerameyahu]

I didn't mean it was an *identical* replacement, but carry on. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

With command being a complex action, most will use focus fire rules on drones

Group A focus attacks on target C
Group B focus attacks on target R

Another thing is many will simply use a script on the drones, where they are given targeting parameters and operations to do on a set signal (think IC/Agent scripting)

If target takes a single round with minimal damage, upgrade to narrow burst fire, loop to full auto narrow

So the rigger sends a simple action to transmit target id and the drones operate by their scripts

funny how this comes up every single time anyone mentions using command program/CF. please, try to understand the rules before giving advice on them. if you don't understand the rules, then *ask* for advice on them.

issuing a command is not the same thing as using the command program/CF. in fact, the two have very little in common.

issuing a command to a drone is a simple action and the drone performs the task using its own abilities on its own initiative, and never uses the command program/CF at all, in any way, shape, or form. you can issue a command to multiple drones subscribed as one, but it must be the same command to all drones. the drones could misunderstand the command if it is something they are not programmed for, although certain programs can help with this problem. the drone can be spoofed with any order.

using the command program/CF to control a drone is a complex action and the controller operates the drone using their own skill and the command program, on the operator's initiative. you can only operate one drone in this manner per action. there is no chance for a misunderstanding, because the drone is directly controlled by the operator, and has absolutely no ability to act on its own. it is probably also immune to most spoofs, other than the spoofed command to switch out of remote operation mode.

[MortVent]

funny how this comes up every single time anyone mentions using command program/CF. please, try to understand the rules before giving advice on them. if you don't understand the rules, then *ask* for advice on them.

issuing a command is not the same thing as using the command program/CF. in fact, the two have very little in common.

issuing a command to a drone is a simple action and the drone performs the task using its own abilities on its own initiative, and never uses the command program/CF at all, in any way, shape, or form. you can issue a command to multiple drones subscribed as one, but it must be the same command to all drones. the drones could misunderstand the command if it is something they are not programmed for, although certain programs can help with this problem. the drone can be spoofed with any order.

using the command program/CF to control a drone is a complex action and the controller operates the drone using their own skill and the command program, on the operator's initiative. you can only operate one drone in this manner per action. there is no chance for a misunderstanding, because the drone is directly controlled by the operator, and has absolutely no ability to act on its own. it is probably also immune to most spoofs, other than the spoofed command to switch out of remote operation mode.

Which is why most will use the issue command option to run scripts on the drones vs a command program.

Can use 2 simple actions to handle orders for multiple drones or groups.

Hell you can have the drones scripted to respond to a free action spoken word for some orders

[Udoshi]

And yet, 2 karma for a CF is far cheaper than the cost of two submersions to get the two echos. So sure, the CF wouldn't 'replace' the echo, it would just be about 1/15th the cost for about 9/10ths of the benefit (Remember that gunnery is a vehicle skill)

Yes, which is why I suggested houseruling it to cost the same as it equivalent karma/BP as it does for a cyberhacker.

If a technomancer WANTS to jump in and rig it up, instead of threadwhoring a command of 12 or more, i say let em.

[Jaid]

Which is why most will use the issue command option to run scripts on the drones vs a command program.

Can use 2 simple actions to handle orders for multiple drones or groups.

Hell you can have the drones scripted to respond to a free action spoken word for some orders

the problem is that the two are not interchangeable. your drone is not going to have anywhere near the kind of ridiculous dicepool a technomancer can get using command. up to 18 dice from the command program *alone* are possible at chargen (CF base at 6, assist operation from a sprite for 6 more, and you can thread the command CF up to double it's base... so another 6). throw in a skill for up to 6 more points, a specialisation for an additional +2 (remote operation for pilot skills, ballistic most likely for gunnery, and vehicle for several other skills like dodge or infiltration), and hot sim for another +2 and you're throwing 28 dice straight out of chargen. as compared to the 10 dice which are about the best you can hope for out of a drone even after chargen (excluding handling, smartlink, and sprite powers that could potentially be applied to either).

seriously, a tricked out (and very heavily specialised) technomancer can be throwing down 20 dice on a dodge test before full dodge as soon as you start playing. a drone will be throwing 6, *if* you blow a bunch of money on a rating 6 response chip and pilot program (neither of which are available by default in chargen without the use of qualities). this is not even remotely comparable. heck, there are probably dodge adepts who dream of having that kind of passive dodge pool. (admittedly, 6 of those points use up sprite services, but you at least have the option, and even if it was "only" 12 that's still extremely high... and in any case, i think long term registering would make assist operation much more appealing).

[Yerameyahu]

Yup, that's why Technomancer pools should be capped harder. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[MortVent]

the problem is that the two are not interchangeable. your drone is not going to have anywhere near the kind of ridiculous dicepool a technomancer can get using command. up to 18 dice from the command program *alone* are possible at chargen (CF base at 6, assist operation from a sprite for 6 more, and you can thread the command CF up to double it's base... so another 6). throw in a skill for up to 6 more points, a specialisation for an additional +2 (remote operation for pilot skills, ballistic most likely for gunnery, and vehicle for several other skills like dodge or infiltration), and hot sim for another +2 and you're throwing 28 dice straight out of chargen. as compared to the 10 dice which are about the best you can hope for out of a drone even after chargen (excluding handling, smartlink, and sprite powers that could potentially be applied to either).

seriously, a tricked out (and very heavily specialised) technomancer can be throwing down 20 dice on a dodge test before full dodge as soon as you start playing. a drone will be throwing 6, *if* you blow a bunch of money on a rating 6 response chip and pilot program (neither of which are available by default in chargen without the use of qualities). this is not even remotely comparable. heck, there are probably dodge adepts who dream of having that kind of passive dodge pool. (admittedly, 6 of those points use up sprite services, but you at least have the option, and even if it was "only" 12 that's still extremely high... and in any case, i think long term registering would make assist operation much more appealing).

You are comparing one drone vs several drones.

Don't need a tricked out drone for a group of drones (combat drones have security rated systems and hardware.. iirc 4, so add ECCM 4 + Encrypt 4 + Stealth 4 + Analyze 4 to run on them in regards to software)

And a scripted dog brain is not subject to jamming (if it can take orders verbally given) and multiple units working in a tacnet is better than 1 unit without.

And where is your uber TM rigger? Is he riding behind the drone in a wheelchair while rigged into it? Meaning he has no dodge roll to attacks against his meat body. What happens when he loses connection?

And heaven forbid your drone have to deal with some HTR security armed with the right tools to render it scrap, like grenades or area effect spells. Or something as simple as a smart jammer or static spell. And lets not forget a personal favorite: glue/web spells or equipment like freeze foam.

I'd rather have a couple dog brains working under my control with decent skills and tech, where I'm not dead meat slung over someone's shoulder or on a mobile chair because I can't remote rig the uber drone.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't understand what you're arguing against. It's the Technomancer that's tricked out, not the drone(s). That's kind of the whole point. You can jump from one drone to another. You can get matrix access from anywhere on the planet, and jamming problems affect all riggers equally… except, perhaps, for the nifty Resonance cheats that Technomancers can get. You can also be in a vehicle, safe and sound, instead of out in the open for no reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

You are comparing one drone vs several drones.

you still seem to be missing my point. the situations in which you would use either method is completely different.

comparing them as if they are both equivalent options is absurd. they are not. neither option is used for the same thing. there is never a time when the two options are in direct competition to each other. you are never going to decide whether you should use the command program/CF to control multiple drones, or to get other drones to do things using their own actions. you are never going to decide whether to use issuing orders to directly control one drone, or to use one drone more effectively than you could many drones.

the two choices are never in direct competition with each other as to which is better. they are used for different purposes. treating them as if they are used for the same thing is only going to lead to confusion.

you don't spend an awful lot of time trying to decide whether you should use a hammer or a screwdriver to put a nail into a wall, and you don't spend much time trying to decide whether to use a hammer or a screwdriver to put a screw into a wall. if i am talking about how to put a screw into a wall, and you just walk up and start suggesting someone try a hammer, and we're giving advice to someone who doesn't know much about screws, screwdrivers, hammers, and nails is just going to get very frustrated trying to pound a screw into the wall with a hammer.

[suoq]

we're giving advice to someone who doesn't know much about screws, screwdrivers, hammers, and nails is just going to get very frustrated trying to pound a screw into the wall with a hammer.

Actually, it's worse than that. I KNOW I don't know the rules, but parts of this have made me wonder if anyone does.

Looking at the top of page 247 at the common rigger/drone tests table the picture is a lot clearer than this thread has been.

Jumped in = Response while Remote Control = Command with the exception of Attack, where Remote Control has the Uber Advantage of ignoring the default level 2 on the Sensors on the drone. A Technomancer can up their control easier and cheaper than they can up their reflex. OK. I get it now.

The middle column of that table is for Dog Brains. Regardless of your choice of Remote Control or Jumped in, Dog Brains is your other choice. When you jump out of your Fly-Spy and into the enemy's Steel Lynx, the Dog Brains are what drives your Fly-Spy back to the street to be picked up and dropped into a Faraday cage until you can insure it's untampered. There's a lot of use for Dog Brains but they're the OTHER thing that you do, regardless of your choice between RC or Jumped in. They may even be the thing you do better, but they're still a completely different thing.

[Karoline]

seriously, a tricked out (and very heavily specialised) technomancer can be throwing down 20 dice on a dodge test before full dodge as soon as you start playing.

Mind running me through this one? Technomancer gets Rea up to 6 and then.....?

[Yerameyahu]

Rigging dodge, not meat dodge.

[Karoline]

Rigging dodge, not meat dodge.

Still curious to know how they manage that. Can't be with a boosted command CF, because using the command CF/program requires a complex action.

[Yerameyahu]

Jumped-In dodge pool is Command, so I assume that's how.

Edit: Sorry, that's *Remote Controlled*, not Jumped-In. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Jaid]

Still curious to know how they manage that. Can't be with a boosted command CF, because using the command CF/program requires a complex action.

the action is controlling the drone on their IP. using their already-existing control to dodge is no more an action for someone using a command CF than it is for someone rigging the drone. or perhaps you think that as soon as the controllers action phase is over, their control over the drone ends? if so, that's just silly. the remote control option has you spend your action at one specific point, but that action spent represents your actions over the entire turn. the drone being shot at may be resolved at a different time than the person controlling the drone resolves their actions, but that is for convenience only, because turn-based is a lot easier to resolve than real-time when it comes to pen and paper games.

[Karoline]

No, command doesn't allow you to dodge for the drone. It allows you to execute a single action for the drone with the command program. Anything other than that single action is done by the drone itself. The command program doesn't give you overarching control over the drone, it simply allows you to issue a single command, which it executes. If you want overarching control over the drone, you jump into it.

The command program isn't the same as being jumped in except with a program. It is the same as telling the drone (very specifically and elaborately, thus the big DP) how to do one thing, after which it is on its own again.

[Jaid]

No, command doesn't allow you to dodge for the drone. It allows you to execute a single action for the drone with the command program. Anything other than that single action is done by the drone itself. The command program doesn't give you overarching control over the drone, it simply allows you to issue a single command, which it executes. If you want overarching control over the drone, you jump into it.

The command program isn't the same as being jumped in except with a program. It is the same as telling the drone (very specifically and elaborately, thus the big DP) how to do one thing, after which it is on its own again.

you are directly controlling the drone. the drone is never controlling itself. if it was, then you could pull BS like using command to fire the drone's guns on your IP and then having the drone fire its guns on its IP, which is not the case.

[Yerameyahu]

*shrug* Check the chart: Jumped-In Defense is Command, Jumped-In Full Defense is Command + Dodge.

Edit: Sorry, *Remote Controlled* in place of 'Jumped-In' in my statement. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, that's what the OP was talking about, so it's still right. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

p. 245 Sr4A

Under "ISSUING COMMANDS"
"You give a short command to the drone or other device with the
Issuing Command action (p. 245).The drone attempts to execute
those orders autonomously on its own action phase. You need to be
able to communicate with the drone, via the Matrix for example, but
do not need to be subscribed to the drone."

under "REMOTE CONTROL"
"You control a device by running the Command program. You may
control only one drone at a time, and must have an active subscription
to that drone. You use your Command rating in place of the attribute
for the dice pool for any action you take (except for Perception Tests,
which use the drone’s Sensor rating in place of your Perception)."

Those are the other modes besides JUMPING IN also on the same page
"You “jump into” a drone via full VR. This requires a subscription to
the drone, vehicle, or device and takes a Simple Action. When jumped
in, the rigger essentially “becomes” the drone, perceiving through its
sensors and operating it as if it were his own body. A rigger who has
jumped into a drone can issue commands to other drones, but cannot
control them remotely."

[DireRadiant]

That "Issue Command (p. 245 )" is actually supposed to be p. 229 where it is listed as a Simple Action