Dronomancer/Technomancer questions Options

[Yerameyahu]

I edited my posts, so I hope I didn't confuse anyone. I meant directly Remote-Controlled, but kept typing 'Jumped-In' for no good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Whoops.

A Technomancer can *remote control* a drone for a huge pool in… almost everything, including passive dodge.

[Karoline]

I can't find the handy chart that says what DPs are used under what circumstances (Stupid bad layout), so I can't confirm. I was under the impression though that the command forced the drone to do a single action (using up its IP, so no shenanigans) and then had the drone do its own thing. Instead it seems to work more like the command program is a video game hooked up to the drone, which seems absurdly cheesy to me. Even without TM foolery, it is generally easier to get a rating 6 command program than to become really good at jumping into a drone (not to mention way less risky).

[Udoshi]

No, Issue Command, a Simple Action tells a drone to do XYZ under its own power, with its own dice pool.
Control Device, a complex action, does indeed give you a video game interface hooked up to the drone. You override the drone, and perform the action yourself. A minor quirk of the rules is, nomatter the action taken on the end of the line, you have to spend a complex action to do it, which makes Commanding/Control Devicing action inefficient. In doing so, you swap Command for the Attribute in the test you make. (it is in fact a double swap, because the matrix in general swaps Program Rating for Attribute, which means you default for Program-1 on the matrix. See Control Device and Attributes in the Matrix for more details).

Its not so much that Command is cheesy, as ANY attribute at 9+ is GOOD. Command just lets you use it for everything.
On the other hand, consider the implications if another archetype, such as a samurai, could do the same thing. They have an agility of 14! Amazing! They get to roll it for EVERYthing! Excellent!
They HAVE to roll it for everything.
Moving.
Reloading.
Perception tests.
Taking aim.
Firing a semi-auto weapon.
Uh oh. What do you mean I can't fire two shots in one pass with command?
When you consider all the actions you normally take: Complex/2 simple +1 free, then realize you need a complex action for -every- one you want to do if you want to use your Command rating.... then it becomes a bit less good.

Also, for balancing Commandthreading, keep in mind that "No threaded complex form can have a rating greater than twice the technomancer's resonance."
And that sprite assist operation "a registered sprite can add its rating to any single complex form used by the technomancer. This assistance lasts a number of combat turns equal to the sprites rating: A rating 3 sprite for example, can boost the rating of the technomancer's Armor complex form by 3, for a maximum of 3 combat turns per task."
Sprite assist operation does NOT cancel out the rating cap from threading, and as the rules show, actually does boost the rating of the CF directly(if temporarily).

SO.....
You can't have a Command of 18 out the door with a combination of Threading and Assist Operation. You can only have a command of 18 if you have a Resonance of 9, or if you don't thread at all.
Basically: CF+Threading+Sprite < Resonance x2. The most you can get out the door of character creation is a rating 12 CF. You *could* get 13, buy using a CF of 6 base and a force 7+ sprite..... but then you have to bind and register a force 7+ sprite, and the fading is probably going to kill you if you get unlucky.
Once in play, you can submerge once and raise your resonance, and increase the threaded cap to rating 14. Which is.... pretty good. A threaded Command of 14 is excellent, despite its restrictions.
And.... is it really unbalanced if a TM has paid 48 karma for that capability?
Yes, rating times 5 attribute cost fucks over TMs as hard as it does mages.

[Yerameyahu]

So use Full Auto. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Karoline]

On the other hand, consider the implications if another archetype, such as a samurai, could do the same thing. They have an agility of 14! Amazing! They get to roll it for EVERYthing! Excellent!

Which is... you know, kinda the point.

They HAVE to roll it for everything.
Moving.
Reloading.
Perception tests.
Taking aim.
Firing a semi-auto weapon.
Uh oh. What do you mean I can't fire two shots in one pass with command?
When you consider all the actions you normally take: Complex/2 simple +1 free, then realize you need a complex action for -every- one you want to do if you want to use your Command rating.... then it becomes a bit less good.

Moving doesn't require an action, nor do perception tests. And as Yeram said, if you're using a complex action anyway, may as well use FA. Also, most drones aren't really set up to be able to reload. And with 20+ dice, you should have killed everything long before reloading comes up as a problem (especially with 100 ammo belts) Oh, and lets not forget that you are basically immune to damage.

[Udoshi]

Actually, Perception Tests DO require a complex action. Controlling a vehicle does indeed require a Complex action every pass. Walking is a non-action. Running, however, is a free, and sprinting is a Simple - for pedestrians. I am wrong about one thing: Control Device apparently only upgrades Simple actions to Complex, it doesn't say anything about Free ones.

Because.... they're Sensor tests. and Observe In Detail is a simple action. Which becomes a complex action via Control Device.
Then again, Active Sensor Targeting just became that much better.

[Yerameyahu]

So. It's a minor tradeoff, for massive single-attribute-dependence on the *one* thing you can boost to like 18. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And that's only Observe in Detail, not normal 'Spot' checks.

[Udoshi]

So. It's a minor tradeoff, for massive single-attribute-dependence on the *one* thing you can boost to like 18. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And that's only Observe in Detail, not normal 'Spot' checks.

Observe in Detail IS the normal spot check. Its the action SR uses for pretty much everything, including astral/matrix perception checks. Its a good thing it does, else using the Perception skill would be a Complex Action. (use skill is a complex action. I think its made more for doing stuff like picking locks in combat, but, hey, it applies here too).

Also, see above. A TM can't generally boost a CF to 18. The capability to do so would cost a hundred and twenty karma. (resonance 7+8+9=24, times 5 karma to raise it.)

[Yerameyahu]

No, I think it was CF to 12, and then Sprite'd or something. It's not my suggestion, someone said it above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Observe in Detail is definitely not the reflexive 'Spot check'. Page 135 in SR4A makes that clear, because it distinguishes between the two.

[Karoline]

Observe in Detail IS the normal spot check. Its the action SR uses for pretty much everything, including astral/matrix perception checks. Its a good thing it does, else using the Perception skill would be a Complex Action. (use skill is a complex action. I think its made more for doing stuff like picking locks in combat, but, hey, it applies here too).

No, Observe in Detail is the normal "I want to look really closely at something." check. You can still glance over an area (and thus get a perception test) without an action, and if someone is trying to sneak past you, you still get a perception check without having to do anything at all.

[Udoshi]

No, I think it was CF to 12, and then Sprite'd or something. It's not my suggestion, someone said it above. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, and that trick doesn't work, because they're ignoring some of the rules for threading.

No, Observe in Detail is the normal "I want to look really closely at something." check. You can still glance over an area (and thus get a perception test) without an action, and if someone is trying to sneak past you, you still get a perception check without having to do anything at all.

You actually don't get it - the GM rolls for you in secret, with a -2 penalty for being distracted, if you're relying on passive observation. In fact, it even says the GM should -not- tell the players a perception test is being made so they don't start metagaming.

Yeah, passive observation is not reliable at -all-. Sadly, there's no rules for 'a glance', but you can observe in detail over an area just fine.

[Yerameyahu]

That's ridiculous. *If* you're distracted, a piddling -2. It's definitely, as I said, the SR4 version of the spot check. It's definitely not an action.

[Udoshi]

That's ridiculous. *If* you're distracted, a piddling -2. It's definitely, as I said, the SR4 version of the spot check. It's definitely not an action.

Prove it. Your interpretation may make sense, but thats not how it works.

[Jaid]

Also, see above. A TM can't generally boost a CF to 18. The capability to do so would cost a hundred and twenty karma. (resonance 7+8+9=24, times 5 karma to raise it.)

i see things that say you can't thread a complex form to more than double. is sprite assist operation threading? no it is not. nobody performs a threading test, nobody takes drain from threading, nobody is threading anything, therefore it is not restricted by rules dealing with threading.

so, you thread your command up to 12 (which is likely going to hurt) and then have a rating 6 registered sprite assist it up to 18 (which rating 6 registered sprite is not trivial to obtain, and you can only use it for a very short duration relatively speaking).

is it very powerful? yes it is. but while it's really easy to *say* that you can get that 18, it shouldn't be assumed that it is trivial or that the technomancer doesn't pay through the nose for it just because it is possible right out of chargen. (it should be noted that to pull this off literally right out of chargen you need to have spent BP on having registered sprites, but later on it will require only time and luck to get registered sprite services, though at rating 6 it won't be easy)

[Udoshi]

Not exactly, Jaid. If you Thread a complex form, well, its threaded, and can't have a rating more than twice resonance. As long as the CF is threaded, the restriction applies.

Sprite assist operation adds the sprites rating to the CF's rating. (see the example in 4a).

You can add Assist Operation all you like to a threaded complex form! No problem there!
.... up until the 2x resonance cap. Because the threading restriction doesn't go away. Watching. Waiting. Laughing at your sprite bouncing its rating against the ceiling. Cause Assist Operation rules don't magically nullify Threading rules. If you're using both, the rules or both apply, and that includes the restriction for threading.

Its one of the most important things for people to remember when balancing technomancers, and a small, very easy piece of text for people to forget about, especially if they're not familiar with the matrix.

[Karoline]

When using most of the skills in the Stealth skill group—
Infi ltration, Palming, and Shadowing—the character makes an
Opposed Test against the target’s Perception + Intuition. Apply
any appropriate Perception modifi ers (see p. 117) to the target.

To determine how observant a character is of her surroundings,
the gamemaster can call for Perception Tests. Unless a
character specifi cally takes an Observe in Detail Simple Action
to perceive, she is considered to be distracted by whatever task
is at hand (suff ering a –2 dice pool modifi er).

Gamemasters may call for Perception Tests for any situation
that involves sight, hearing, smell, touch, or taste

Gamemasters should limit their uses of Perception Tests,
only calling for them when something is not immediately
noticeable or when a situation is so hectic that certain things
might be overlooked.

So yeah, you'll be taking the -2 distracted penalty for not using an action, but you certainly don't need to spend an action to be able to perceive things.

[Yerameyahu]

Udoshi, there's nothing to prove. It's totally obvious from the very clear written rules.

[Karoline]

Udoshi has a good point about the threading. The book says that

No threaded complex form can having a
rating of more than twice the technomancer’s Resonance.

That means if it is being threaded, it's rating cannot be above resonance x 2. It doesn't matter if that extra rating comes after the threading action or not, as long as the CF is still being threaded (ie. the threading is being sustained) its rating cannot become higher than resonance x 2.

[Yerameyahu]

Ah, well there you go. Still, a 12 as an (actually, all) *attribute* is nothing to sneeze at. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) I assume that was the OP's point.

[Udoshi]

Man, Karoline. you left out bits I'd quoted earlier. I'm dissappointed. Lemme add em back in.

Using Perception[/b]]
To determine how observant a character is of her surroundings,
the gamemaster can call for Perception Tests. Unless a
character specifically takes an Observe in Detail Simple Action
to perceive, she is considered to be distracted by whatever task
is at hand (suffering a –2 dice pool modififer).
For tactical reasons, the gamemaster should make this test secretly on behalf of the character, so the the character is unaware of exactly how well her character succeeded or failed. In fact, it may be advisable in certain cases to not let the player(s) know that a Perception test is being made, in order to avoid rasing their suspicions.
when an entire group of characters has a chacne to notice something, the gamemaster can simplify matters by making a single perception test for the entire team, using the largest dice pool available +1 per extra character (maximum+5). Such group perception tests should not be made when surprise is possible

Out of curiosity, is your quote from 4th or 4A?

A cahracter may make a detailed observation by taking a simple action. This allows a Perception test ( see using perception, p135)
Note that characters should always be able to observe what is immediately obvious (gamemaster's discretion, keeping in mind any perception enhancements the characters may have) without having to spend a simple action and make a perception test. For example, a character might automatically be aware that someone is running towards him with a gun in hand; however, the gamemaster may decide that the character cannot tell if it is a friend or foe without taking an Observe in Detail action.

The point is, do you -really- want to rely on the Gm to tell you everything automatically?
And I don't even mean in the 'players vs GM, gm takes every opportunity to screw the players' sense. I know that our GM, who's a great guy and not out to get the character at every turn is.... human. He gets tired, he drops details, and doesn't remember every rule all the time. He splits his attention to the other players, and doesn't have time to constantly tell one person exactly what is going on.
My point is.... passive perception isn't exactly reliable. And to get any further information, you need to spend an action to look around.

[Karoline]

Man, Karoline. you left out bits I'd quoted earlier. I'm dissappointed. Lemme add em back in.

Yeah, because you quoted them earlier. It doesn't really matter if it is the GM or you making the test, it still gets made.

Out of curiosity, is your quote from 4th or 4A?

4th

The point is, do you -really- want to rely on the Gm to tell you everything automatically?
And I don't even mean in the 'players vs GM, gm takes every opportunity to screw the players' sense. I know that our GM, who's a great guy and not out to get the character at every turn is.... human. He gets tired, he drops details, and doesn't remember every rule all the time. He splits his attention to the other players, and doesn't have time to constantly tell one person exactly what is going on.
My point is.... passive perception isn't exactly reliable. And to get any further information, you need to spend an action to look around.

I don't really have a problem with it, he tells me everything automatically anyway. If it is something that requires a perception check, it'll get made for everyone, if it is something that doesn't require a perception check, then a perception check isn't at issue. If there is something about the surroundings you want to know, you ask, and he tells you, and life moves on. If there is some obscure detail he forgot, rolling a check isn't going to jog his memory.

I'm curious as to exactly what sort of thing you're so afraid will get forgotten if you don't spend an action every round on 'observe in detail'.

[Yerameyahu]

My point is that passive perception is super reliable, not that you'd *never* want to make an Observe in Detail test. If anyone's going to be thinking of what details are available to be observed, it's the GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Saint Sithney]

I can't find the handy chart that says what DPs are used under what circumstances (Stupid bad layout), so I can't confirm.

It's on Unwired p 105. Common Rigger/Drone Tests.

Even without TM foolery, it is generally easier to get a rating 6 command program than to become really good at jumping into a drone (not to mention way less risky).

Yeah, Joystick Jockies are insane, but Spoof their bots and they're boned.

Here's something funny though. A low-logic bruiser can spend a 900¥ on a rating 6 Command program with the Optimization 3 option, slap it in his generic R3 comlink, and he's got an easy way to sub in 4 (six minus the two for Remote Operation,) Command dice for his piddly Logic in a First Aid test - just by using a Controller instead of his weak-ass noggin. It's like idiot-proofing.

[Karoline]

It's like idiot-proofing.

Successful idiot-proofing.
Which moves it more into the realm of fantasy than pixies (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

-2 for Remote Operation?