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> Adventure Rewards, What about the money?
JurneeJakes
post Jul 30 2010, 09:18 PM
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The core rule book has guidelines for rewarding karma, but does anyone have a guide on what to offer for nuyen? Obviously this depends alot on negotiations and all, but for the Street Sams and the like, it's a very important aspect of the game considering how hard it is for cyber character to keep up to Adepts lately.
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Inpu
post Jul 30 2010, 09:27 PM
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QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Jul 30 2010, 11:18 PM) *
The core rule book has guidelines for rewarding karma, but does anyone have a guide on what to offer for nuyen? Obviously this depends alot on negotiations and all, but for the Street Sams and the like, it's a very important aspect of the game considering how hard it is for cyber character to keep up to Adepts lately.


http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t=0&start=0

There's a table on the first post but more helpful are the comments spread around the thread.
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CanRay
post Jul 30 2010, 09:41 PM
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5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in UCAS Dollars and some gift certificates for a Stuffer Shack.
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Acidsaliva
post Jul 30 2010, 09:46 PM
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Didn't Ancient History post some sort of table like that recently ?
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Inpu
post Jul 30 2010, 09:49 PM
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I think the one I linked was the most recent table for this subject, actually, but I could be wrong. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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CanRay
post Jul 31 2010, 08:39 AM
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In reality, the cost of doing business depends on what you're doing, who you're doing it for, who you're doing it to, and, finally, negotiation.

Higher risk, more pay. More valuable items, more pay (Don't want you selling it off to the highest bidder after all.). Big Corp hiring, more pay. Big Corp run against, more pay. Good negotiatior, more pay. And the reverse is true as well.

The table linked is a good starting point.
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Traul
post Jul 31 2010, 12:38 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 30 2010, 11:41 PM) *
5 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) in UCAS Dollars and some gift certificates for a Stuffer Shack.


After several unsuccessful tries, the bum finally manages to extract himself from his dumpster and starts waiving his shiv in an attempt to impress Mr Johnson, although he doesn't look like he can hurt anyone but himself with those drunken moves.

"I'm your man, Milord! Who do you want killed?"
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Karoline
post Jul 31 2010, 01:42 PM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 31 2010, 08:38 AM) *
After several unsuccessful attempts, the bum finally manages to extract himself from his dumpster and starts waiving his shiv in an attempt to impress Mr Johnson, although he doesn't look like he can hurt anyone but himself with those drunken moves.

"I'm your man, Milord! Who do you want killed?"

"Hired (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) "
(That's the distraction part taken care of)
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CanRay
post Jul 31 2010, 03:26 PM
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Ah bums... Always good for a distraction.

In one cyberpunk game (Not Shadowrun, unfortunetly), we had a whole lot of them that we paid in stolen bulk food (Mmmmmmmm, just add water and it makes it's own gravy!) to hold an impromptu protest rally.
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Karoline
post Jul 31 2010, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 31 2010, 10:26 AM) *
Ah bums... Always good for a distraction.

In one cyberpunk game (Not Shadowrun, unfortunetly), we had a whole lot of them that we paid in stolen bulk food (Mmmmmmmm, just add water and it makes it's own gravy!) to hold an impromptu protest rally.


"What do we want?"
"You don't remember either?"
"When do we want it?"
"Soon?"
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Smokeskin
post Jul 31 2010, 06:42 PM
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QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Jul 30 2010, 11:18 PM) *
but for the Street Sams and the like, it's a very important aspect of the game considering how hard it is for cyber character to keep up to Adepts lately.


There's a very easy way to fix that. Have the players hit paydirt. Have the Johnson try and kill them, only to let them get away and then demand 10 times more to turn over the goods. Give them the opportunity to doublecross the Johnson and sell the prototype back to the competitor. Let them find incriminating info on a CEO and let them blackmail him, the shipping plans for something very expensive, the time and location of major drug deal.
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Hand-E-Food
post Aug 2 2010, 03:24 AM
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For a run that earns each player 6 karma, I offer about 15,000 each, including equipment and loot. In our current run, the team were offered 40,000, plus 5% per hit on a Charisma + Negotiate opposed test. They may find other ways to make money during the run.

My rule of thumb is 2,500 of cash and assets per karma per character.
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CanRay
post Aug 2 2010, 04:04 AM
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Finding other ways to make money on a 'Run is always an important part of any Shadowrun!

My first game had my group making money running a fake truck flying the Starbucks colours (StarKaf I guess we'd say it is now), and selling their own "Brand" of Soykaff with "Additives". Said additives either knocked out someone, or gave them explosive diarrhea.

Better 'Running through chemistry.
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Voran
post Aug 2 2010, 05:07 AM
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Hm, across the various editions, the guys I felt most for were the Riggers. You'd think the cybered dudes would have it worst, but there is a slight balancing factor in that (at least in my experience) its rare to have GMs that go for the 'hahaha damaged cyberware!' option. On the other hand, the rigger has stuff that is designed to be out in the open, and shot at. If the rigger themselves go for cyber, they have not only cybercosts near that of a sam, but also vehicles, then later drones, costs.

Sure a rigger can run around in a barely tuned stock car, van, helicopter, panzer, whatever, but that makes it more likely it'll be crap, and get nuked quicker, on the other hand, they're investing heavily in upgraded vehicles/drones that are potentially more durable, but also more expensive to repair/replace/etc.
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CanRay
post Aug 2 2010, 05:25 AM
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Also makes it harder to ditch if you need to, and easier to ID if the authorities bust the Rigger's mechanic contact.
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Smokeskin
post Aug 2 2010, 05:31 AM
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QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 2 2010, 07:07 AM) *
Hm, across the various editions, the guys I felt most for were the Riggers. You'd think the cybered dudes would have it worst, but there is a slight balancing factor in that (at least in my experience) its rare to have GMs that go for the 'hahaha damaged cyberware!' option. On the other hand, the rigger has stuff that is designed to be out in the open, and shot at. If the rigger themselves go for cyber, they have not only cybercosts near that of a sam, but also vehicles, then later drones, costs.

Sure a rigger can run around in a barely tuned stock car, van, helicopter, panzer, whatever, but that makes it more likely it'll be crap, and get nuked quicker, on the other hand, they're investing heavily in upgraded vehicles/drones that are potentially more durable, but also more expensive to repair/replace/etc.


Johnsons replace destroyed equipment
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CanRay
post Aug 2 2010, 05:49 AM
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QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 2 2010, 12:31 AM) *
Johnsons replace destroyed equipment

Really now? Nice Johnson!

"So, you're telling me that five Roto-Drones and a Harley-Davidson Shadowrunner were destroyed? And you want replacements..." "Yep." "I just asked you to watch a certain apartment, how did those items get destroyed by sitting around and watching a fragging apartment?"
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Voran
post Aug 2 2010, 06:08 AM
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And in some cases, the repair/replacement cost would exceed (by alot) the actual payment amount. Paid 50k, losses of helicopter? anywhere from 100k to over a million (stock vehicle). Custom vehicles would be more.

Obviously the best way to make a profit is to not get damaged, but I've yet to have a rigger that hasn't suffered a material loss of some sort. Sometimes sure, you can get damage compensation, but overall, i've always found the rigger the highest difficulty in the risk vs reward equation. Damned tho, since I love playing riggers.

To be fair, I've also had games where the GM is nice and lets you steal or otherwise get back a version of the stock-vehicle at much reduced cost, but upgrading it back up to runner rating is still pretty costly. Once upon a time Deckers had almost similar concerns, by the ease at which decks could get fried, nowadays even the best commlink is a far cry from the 1 mil+ Fairlight Excalibur deck.
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Smokeskin
post Aug 2 2010, 06:32 AM
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QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 2 2010, 07:49 AM) *
Really now? Nice Johnson!

"So, you're telling me that five Roto-Drones and a Harley-Davidson Shadowrunner were destroyed? And you want replacements..." "Yep." "I just asked you to watch a certain apartment, how did those items get destroyed by sitting around and watching a fragging apartment?"


Have you ever hired a contractor IRL for a complicated job that is hard to estimate? You can do it two ways: either you pay him by the and hour and by expenses, or if you want a fixed price, he wants too much because he'll have to add a healthy margin to ensure he doesn't end up at a loss.

Shadowrunners and Johnsons face the same mechanic. The runners won't take the job at a loss. If it turns out midway that it is going to be a loss, they're going to walk away - you don't put a 20k drone on the line for a 20k run unless you think there's very, very little chance it'll get blown to bits. Either the runners ask for a lot, or the Johnson agrees to pay them for expenses.

Obviously reasonable expenses is a term that is negotiated, and often there's an agreement that during the run they have to clear costs with their fixer, they can't just do whatever they like - and they built up reputations for being costly if they always use their limit.

I think there's a very good explanation for why Johnsons would do this.

And it fixes a very real problem that would otherwise affect both balance between PCs and more importantly, fun. Having the leeway to ditch the car and ram the drone sometimes is enjoyable, and it should result in a big bill when done.
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CanRay
post Aug 2 2010, 06:59 AM
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OK, that makes sense.

I'll have to remember that when I'm doing the negotiating.

So far, my group hasn't learned to do that yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)
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Inpu
post Aug 2 2010, 07:00 AM
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If you have to ditch the car, then you probably screwed up. A Johnson is not going to cover a 'stupid fee'. Any losses are the Runners problems. Good negotiating can get a bit of a cushion, but not enough to cover all your drones and cars. It is, after all, the Shadowrunners' task to figure out how to pull a job.

If a group pulls out of a run midway because they got their car blown up, then their rep drowns. Easy as that. Replacement parts often come in the form of resource raids, as seen in a number of the books (notably in the Runner's Haven, when one Runner suggests hitting a place for rigger parts).

In the real world, if a contractor breaks a drillbit, the customer is not going to overly care and certainly not going to pay extra.

Besides, these are not contractors. They're criminals. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Dragging Johnsons to court is not the best option.
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CanRay
post Aug 2 2010, 07:03 AM
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No, but making him a cellmate for Bubba the Love Troll might be. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

'Course, then your Rep will go down as well...
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Inpu
post Aug 2 2010, 07:05 AM
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But at least it was fun then!
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Smokeskin
post Aug 2 2010, 07:35 AM
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QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 2 2010, 09:00 AM) *
In the real world, if a contractor breaks a drillbit, the customer is not going to overly care and certainly not going to pay extra.

Besides, these are not contractors. They're criminals.


You can't really compare it to breaking a drill bit. A more reasonable comparison would that you don't know if you need to pile in foundation poles to support the house's foundation. A contractor isn't going to accept that risk - either he adds in an overhead to cover it, or you agree to pay for foundation work as extra.

Same with runs. Johnsons mostly don't (or can't) provide good intel on what is needed to get the job done. Runners aren't just going to walk blind into a job at a fixed rate. Of course you negotiate terms like how long he's bought your services for, per day cost after that, and how you handle unexpected expenses.

And say Johnsons don't do this. All that happens is that runners have to generally charge more, so they overall make a profit to cover their losses. Then the Johnsons with the easy jobs end up paying the overhead for the Johnsons with the hard jobs that incur losses. Next thing, either the Johnsons with the easy jobs sees that they can get their jobs done cheaper if they pay a daily rate + expenses, or some Runners sees that they're much more competitive pricewise for jobs with low expenses by offering to work for daily rate + expenses. So now all that overhead ends up at the Johnsons with the hard jobs anyway - if he's not offering daily rate + expenses, everyone thinks "shit he's trying to con me into a job that takes forever and needs 2 disposable vehicles and 3 drones to pull off".

The invisible hand of the market works here too. A market with flat rates (the real effect of not having good intel before you accept the run) and highly variable expenses will almost always find a way for low expense jobs to be provided at a lower rate.
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Inpu
post Aug 2 2010, 07:49 AM
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Every Johnson is going for the bottom line. There can be no flat rates, to be sure: trust me when I say I agree that good negotiation and the premise of the job make a world of difference. Some will just pay more and if he specifically asks you to risk your Drones, then he has to pay for that (if he doesn't just try to screw you).

However, if you are too expensive, they will go to another team. If a Johnson wants you to ram a car with another car to make an accident and you say "I'll lose a car on this, so I want so much Nuyen", a Johnson worth his salt will say "acquire a car, then."
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