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JurneeJakes
The core rule book has guidelines for rewarding karma, but does anyone have a guide on what to offer for nuyen? Obviously this depends alot on negotiations and all, but for the Street Sams and the like, it's a very important aspect of the game considering how hard it is for cyber character to keep up to Adepts lately.
Inpu
QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Jul 30 2010, 11:18 PM) *
The core rule book has guidelines for rewarding karma, but does anyone have a guide on what to offer for nuyen? Obviously this depends alot on negotiations and all, but for the Street Sams and the like, it's a very important aspect of the game considering how hard it is for cyber character to keep up to Adepts lately.


http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t=0&start=0

There's a table on the first post but more helpful are the comments spread around the thread.
CanRay
5 nuyen.gif in UCAS Dollars and some gift certificates for a Stuffer Shack.
Acidsaliva

Didn't Ancient History post some sort of table like that recently ?
Inpu
I think the one I linked was the most recent table for this subject, actually, but I could be wrong. nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
In reality, the cost of doing business depends on what you're doing, who you're doing it for, who you're doing it to, and, finally, negotiation.

Higher risk, more pay. More valuable items, more pay (Don't want you selling it off to the highest bidder after all.). Big Corp hiring, more pay. Big Corp run against, more pay. Good negotiatior, more pay. And the reverse is true as well.

The table linked is a good starting point.
Traul
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 30 2010, 11:41 PM) *
5 nuyen.gif in UCAS Dollars and some gift certificates for a Stuffer Shack.


After several unsuccessful tries, the bum finally manages to extract himself from his dumpster and starts waiving his shiv in an attempt to impress Mr Johnson, although he doesn't look like he can hurt anyone but himself with those drunken moves.

"I'm your man, Milord! Who do you want killed?"
Karoline
QUOTE (Traul @ Jul 31 2010, 08:38 AM) *
After several unsuccessful attempts, the bum finally manages to extract himself from his dumpster and starts waiving his shiv in an attempt to impress Mr Johnson, although he doesn't look like he can hurt anyone but himself with those drunken moves.

"I'm your man, Milord! Who do you want killed?"

"Hired biggrin.gif"
(That's the distraction part taken care of)
CanRay
Ah bums... Always good for a distraction.

In one cyberpunk game (Not Shadowrun, unfortunetly), we had a whole lot of them that we paid in stolen bulk food (Mmmmmmmm, just add water and it makes it's own gravy!) to hold an impromptu protest rally.
Karoline
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 31 2010, 10:26 AM) *
Ah bums... Always good for a distraction.

In one cyberpunk game (Not Shadowrun, unfortunetly), we had a whole lot of them that we paid in stolen bulk food (Mmmmmmmm, just add water and it makes it's own gravy!) to hold an impromptu protest rally.


"What do we want?"
"You don't remember either?"
"When do we want it?"
"Soon?"
Smokeskin
QUOTE (JurneeJakes @ Jul 30 2010, 11:18 PM) *
but for the Street Sams and the like, it's a very important aspect of the game considering how hard it is for cyber character to keep up to Adepts lately.


There's a very easy way to fix that. Have the players hit paydirt. Have the Johnson try and kill them, only to let them get away and then demand 10 times more to turn over the goods. Give them the opportunity to doublecross the Johnson and sell the prototype back to the competitor. Let them find incriminating info on a CEO and let them blackmail him, the shipping plans for something very expensive, the time and location of major drug deal.
Hand-E-Food
For a run that earns each player 6 karma, I offer about 15,000 each, including equipment and loot. In our current run, the team were offered 40,000, plus 5% per hit on a Charisma + Negotiate opposed test. They may find other ways to make money during the run.

My rule of thumb is 2,500 of cash and assets per karma per character.
CanRay
Finding other ways to make money on a 'Run is always an important part of any Shadowrun!

My first game had my group making money running a fake truck flying the Starbucks colours (StarKaf I guess we'd say it is now), and selling their own "Brand" of Soykaff with "Additives". Said additives either knocked out someone, or gave them explosive diarrhea.

Better 'Running through chemistry.
Voran
Hm, across the various editions, the guys I felt most for were the Riggers. You'd think the cybered dudes would have it worst, but there is a slight balancing factor in that (at least in my experience) its rare to have GMs that go for the 'hahaha damaged cyberware!' option. On the other hand, the rigger has stuff that is designed to be out in the open, and shot at. If the rigger themselves go for cyber, they have not only cybercosts near that of a sam, but also vehicles, then later drones, costs.

Sure a rigger can run around in a barely tuned stock car, van, helicopter, panzer, whatever, but that makes it more likely it'll be crap, and get nuked quicker, on the other hand, they're investing heavily in upgraded vehicles/drones that are potentially more durable, but also more expensive to repair/replace/etc.
CanRay
Also makes it harder to ditch if you need to, and easier to ID if the authorities bust the Rigger's mechanic contact.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Voran @ Aug 2 2010, 07:07 AM) *
Hm, across the various editions, the guys I felt most for were the Riggers. You'd think the cybered dudes would have it worst, but there is a slight balancing factor in that (at least in my experience) its rare to have GMs that go for the 'hahaha damaged cyberware!' option. On the other hand, the rigger has stuff that is designed to be out in the open, and shot at. If the rigger themselves go for cyber, they have not only cybercosts near that of a sam, but also vehicles, then later drones, costs.

Sure a rigger can run around in a barely tuned stock car, van, helicopter, panzer, whatever, but that makes it more likely it'll be crap, and get nuked quicker, on the other hand, they're investing heavily in upgraded vehicles/drones that are potentially more durable, but also more expensive to repair/replace/etc.


Johnsons replace destroyed equipment
CanRay
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 2 2010, 12:31 AM) *
Johnsons replace destroyed equipment

Really now? Nice Johnson!

"So, you're telling me that five Roto-Drones and a Harley-Davidson Shadowrunner were destroyed? And you want replacements..." "Yep." "I just asked you to watch a certain apartment, how did those items get destroyed by sitting around and watching a fragging apartment?"
Voran
And in some cases, the repair/replacement cost would exceed (by alot) the actual payment amount. Paid 50k, losses of helicopter? anywhere from 100k to over a million (stock vehicle). Custom vehicles would be more.

Obviously the best way to make a profit is to not get damaged, but I've yet to have a rigger that hasn't suffered a material loss of some sort. Sometimes sure, you can get damage compensation, but overall, i've always found the rigger the highest difficulty in the risk vs reward equation. Damned tho, since I love playing riggers.

To be fair, I've also had games where the GM is nice and lets you steal or otherwise get back a version of the stock-vehicle at much reduced cost, but upgrading it back up to runner rating is still pretty costly. Once upon a time Deckers had almost similar concerns, by the ease at which decks could get fried, nowadays even the best commlink is a far cry from the 1 mil+ Fairlight Excalibur deck.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 2 2010, 07:49 AM) *
Really now? Nice Johnson!

"So, you're telling me that five Roto-Drones and a Harley-Davidson Shadowrunner were destroyed? And you want replacements..." "Yep." "I just asked you to watch a certain apartment, how did those items get destroyed by sitting around and watching a fragging apartment?"


Have you ever hired a contractor IRL for a complicated job that is hard to estimate? You can do it two ways: either you pay him by the and hour and by expenses, or if you want a fixed price, he wants too much because he'll have to add a healthy margin to ensure he doesn't end up at a loss.

Shadowrunners and Johnsons face the same mechanic. The runners won't take the job at a loss. If it turns out midway that it is going to be a loss, they're going to walk away - you don't put a 20k drone on the line for a 20k run unless you think there's very, very little chance it'll get blown to bits. Either the runners ask for a lot, or the Johnson agrees to pay them for expenses.

Obviously reasonable expenses is a term that is negotiated, and often there's an agreement that during the run they have to clear costs with their fixer, they can't just do whatever they like - and they built up reputations for being costly if they always use their limit.

I think there's a very good explanation for why Johnsons would do this.

And it fixes a very real problem that would otherwise affect both balance between PCs and more importantly, fun. Having the leeway to ditch the car and ram the drone sometimes is enjoyable, and it should result in a big bill when done.
CanRay
OK, that makes sense.

I'll have to remember that when I'm doing the negotiating.

So far, my group hasn't learned to do that yet. devil.gif
Inpu
If you have to ditch the car, then you probably screwed up. A Johnson is not going to cover a 'stupid fee'. Any losses are the Runners problems. Good negotiating can get a bit of a cushion, but not enough to cover all your drones and cars. It is, after all, the Shadowrunners' task to figure out how to pull a job.

If a group pulls out of a run midway because they got their car blown up, then their rep drowns. Easy as that. Replacement parts often come in the form of resource raids, as seen in a number of the books (notably in the Runner's Haven, when one Runner suggests hitting a place for rigger parts).

In the real world, if a contractor breaks a drillbit, the customer is not going to overly care and certainly not going to pay extra.

Besides, these are not contractors. They're criminals. nyahnyah.gif Dragging Johnsons to court is not the best option.
CanRay
No, but making him a cellmate for Bubba the Love Troll might be. devil.gif

'Course, then your Rep will go down as well...
Inpu
But at least it was fun then!
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Inpu @ Aug 2 2010, 09:00 AM) *
In the real world, if a contractor breaks a drillbit, the customer is not going to overly care and certainly not going to pay extra.

Besides, these are not contractors. They're criminals.


You can't really compare it to breaking a drill bit. A more reasonable comparison would that you don't know if you need to pile in foundation poles to support the house's foundation. A contractor isn't going to accept that risk - either he adds in an overhead to cover it, or you agree to pay for foundation work as extra.

Same with runs. Johnsons mostly don't (or can't) provide good intel on what is needed to get the job done. Runners aren't just going to walk blind into a job at a fixed rate. Of course you negotiate terms like how long he's bought your services for, per day cost after that, and how you handle unexpected expenses.

And say Johnsons don't do this. All that happens is that runners have to generally charge more, so they overall make a profit to cover their losses. Then the Johnsons with the easy jobs end up paying the overhead for the Johnsons with the hard jobs that incur losses. Next thing, either the Johnsons with the easy jobs sees that they can get their jobs done cheaper if they pay a daily rate + expenses, or some Runners sees that they're much more competitive pricewise for jobs with low expenses by offering to work for daily rate + expenses. So now all that overhead ends up at the Johnsons with the hard jobs anyway - if he's not offering daily rate + expenses, everyone thinks "shit he's trying to con me into a job that takes forever and needs 2 disposable vehicles and 3 drones to pull off".

The invisible hand of the market works here too. A market with flat rates (the real effect of not having good intel before you accept the run) and highly variable expenses will almost always find a way for low expense jobs to be provided at a lower rate.
Inpu
Every Johnson is going for the bottom line. There can be no flat rates, to be sure: trust me when I say I agree that good negotiation and the premise of the job make a world of difference. Some will just pay more and if he specifically asks you to risk your Drones, then he has to pay for that (if he doesn't just try to screw you).

However, if you are too expensive, they will go to another team. If a Johnson wants you to ram a car with another car to make an accident and you say "I'll lose a car on this, so I want so much Nuyen", a Johnson worth his salt will say "acquire a car, then."
Voran
I think part of the issue also ends up being, how can you allow a rigger to play, without unnecessary hassle. A drone rigger, or a vehicle rigger, will obviously WANT to use their vehicles and drones, its kinda the reason they built their character, the tricked out stallion or eurocar or nightsky, or god forbid a panzer. Some of the fluff literature in the sourcebooks that deal with riggers also give the aside of some of the rigger chars having an inventory of appropriate vehicles, which means, you don't just have a stallion, you've got a stallion and a eurocar and a nightsky and a...etc etc. So you can sorta pick and choose the best vehicle/drone for the particular setting.

On the other hand, this may just be a need for the rigger to have to run 'off scene' smuggler runs to pay for his stuff, and do 'shadowruns' for more specific things, even if the cost won't be absorbed.

Still, the equation gets all wonky when you add a rigger to the team mix as they tend to have the highest loss in the 'drop everything' situation cause in a way they have the most expensive external 'stuff'.

Didn't mean to derail the thread on the rigger btw, just its something that over 20 years in SR has been as big an issue for me as 'how to balance a long term game with a fighter type vs a wizard type'.
Inpu
Well, the Rigger has the advantage of often having group support. If the group vehicle goes down, the group will often chip in to replace it, then have the Rigger drive because they're the only one with the pilot skill to any respectable level.
Mesh
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Jul 31 2010, 02:42 PM) *
There's a very easy way to fix that. Have the players hit paydirt. Have the Johnson try and kill them, only to let them get away and then demand 10 times more to turn over the goods. Give them the opportunity to doublecross the Johnson and sell the prototype back to the competitor. Let them find incriminating info on a CEO and let them blackmail him, the shipping plans for something very expensive, the time and location of major drug deal.


I see this happen too often. Here are two of the most basic questions about the dynamic between Johnson and Shadowrunner:

1) If a Johnson tries to kill the runners he hired, who will ever work for him again?
2) If the runners double cross the Johnson, who will want to hire them next time?

There are exceptions, but this is the dynamic that keeps this a viable system. People remember what went down, others will hear about it, and this is a very "word of mouth" referral system.

Mesh
Inpu
QUOTE (Mesh @ Aug 2 2010, 02:22 PM) *
1) If a Johnson tries to kill the runners he hired, who will ever work for him again?


The next team who really needs to pay a Syndicate back or some such. Or the next who thinks "Maybe he didn't like you". It will decrease his traffic, but there is always a Runner willing to take the risk. That just means the next (smart) group will make sure to have leverage, such as keeping the paydata until payment, or making a copy to be sure.

QUOTE
2) If the runners double cross the Johnson, who will want to hire them next time?


This one would be a little harder, but thankfully Johnson's from different companies don't talk together all the time, and some Johnson's aren't well connected, which is why they pay the Runners. The system is rampant with betrayal. It's pretty well accepted. The Runner who is known to be honorable will be prized (and, alternatively, seen as an easy dupe), while the Johnson who is remembered as honorable will be both distrusted and heavily respected.

Always watch your back, as they say. Shadowrunners don't exactly have unions.
CypherDragon
I've always paid negotiated rates + reasonable expenses. Reasonable being things that would normally be used up during the job...so some small % of ammo expended, armor/vehicle repairs, maaayyybe a combat drone if the job was considered dangerous enough. It all has to balance out; a milkrun (or perceived milkrun) won't net the team much in the way of expenses. A high-level smash-n-grab OTOH would probably push the expense margin up higher, since there's a great deal more risk of losses. It also depends on how often your group is making runs...at 1 run a (game) month, the team needs to make enough to at least cover their lifestyle (no one works to live on the street, chummer, except the most desperate runner) and a little extra so they can afford the shinies. If they're running more often, then they'll get smaller, lower-payout jobs more often then the high-risk, high-payout jobs (well, unless they're FastJack). It's all a matter of what you (as a GM) and your players want. Also, if you're playing out the downtime between big jobs, they can take on smaller individual jobs (ever needed a Street Sam bodyguard, or a rigger to smuggle some goods?) or explore other avenues of making nuyen. It's all about making a believable, interesting storyline for the group smile.gif

The only time I've done flat-fee payments is for one-shots, when the payout really doesn't matter. Also, most of the flat-fees are paid out up front from the Johnson.
cndblank
The Johnson is paying for untraceable assets.
The runners have both the skills and the assets.


You are not just paying for Joe Street Samurai to pull a run for you, you are playing for the 100K of cyberware he has inside him and any wear and tear.
A Street Samurai or a rigger will have a couple of 100K in ware/gear and if Mr Johnson wants him to come out and play then he has to not only pay the runner but cover the use of the assets and any risks.
Ware that he can lose if he gets arrested. Ware he can not use if he is seriously hurt.


I mean risking your life is one thing cause if you end up dead it doesn't matter what happens cause you are not going to be around to suffer the consequences...
But get seriously wounded or lose your ware/gear and you can not work.
You can bet starving to death or being in a position where where your enemies can settle accounts carries a lot of weight with any professional.


The more the risk then the more the Johnson has to put out.
Even if the Johnson was running the Op in house using company assets, he is still have to cover the gear needed for the run.
To keep the op untraceable it is actually cheaper to hire a well equipped runner team than to try to assemble what is needed and then to dispose of it after the Op.
So the Johnson will already be figuring the gear cost in to the run.


And think about it. A Johnson is usually going to be hiring for a run worth a million or more even if it is a long shot.
It would be the height of stupidity to not spring for a runner team that has all the gear necessary to pull the job off.
So the Johnson will either provide the gear or pay enough to make it worth it to the runners to cover the risk and wear and tear.

And in my game it is SOP for any gear loses to be covered by the entire team.

I mean if you were a mage or a Sammy and the rigger was covering your exit during a hot and heavy firefight do you really want him thinking about how much it is going to cost to replace that drone?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 2 2010, 07:35 AM) *
You can't really compare it to breaking a drill bit. A more reasonable comparison would that you don't know if you need to pile in foundation poles to support the house's foundation. A contractor isn't going to accept that risk - either he adds in an overhead to cover it, or you agree to pay for foundation work as extra.


You can compare it to the contractor busting the transmission on his truck when trying to haul more weight than the machine is rated for. The homeowner isn't paying him extra to buy a new truck - those costs are included in the revenue the contractor is getting from the job. Foundation poles and other work is included on an initial estimate; such things can be forseen. If the runners know they're going to lose a $20k drone, then they'd better negotiate up to include it because it's not the Johnson's damn problem if his assets break their toys.

QUOTE
Same with runs. Johnsons mostly don't (or can't) provide good intel on what is needed to get the job done. Runners aren't just going to walk blind into a job at a fixed rate. Of course you negotiate terms like how long he's bought your services for, per day cost after that, and how you handle unexpected expenses.


No, it's up to them to negotiate up. The Johnson has a fixed budget for this job, any excess he likely gets to pocket. He's going to get the best setup for the lowest bidder. It's up to the fixer to find a team that fits the Johnson's requirements, and it's up to the team to have the gear. If they need more, they negotiate an extra deposit and get at least half down. Any of this per diem malarkey is precisely that. The very moment that you negotiate a per diem for a runner, you just bought a couch potato. Congratulations.
QUOTE
And say Johnsons don't do this. All that happens is that runners have to generally charge more, so they overall make a profit to cover their losses. Then the Johnsons with the easy jobs end up paying the overhead for the Johnsons with the hard jobs that incur losses. Next thing, either the Johnsons with the easy jobs sees that they can get their jobs done cheaper if they pay a daily rate + expenses, or some Runners sees that they're much more competitive pricewise for jobs with low expenses by offering to work for daily rate + expenses. So now all that overhead ends up at the Johnsons with the hard jobs anyway - if he's not offering daily rate + expenses, everyone thinks "shit he's trying to con me into a job that takes forever and needs 2 disposable vehicles and 3 drones to pull off".


"Per diem" and "expenses" are buzzwords for 'blank check'. As a Johnson, I would never hire a team using those words. They get a flat rate based on what *I* figure their risks are going to be. I don't trust my deniable assets. If I did, they wouldn't be deniable. I will assume they will try to get the most money out of me possible, and I will destroy their reputations if they cross me. If I need a team of five to break into a lightly-defended facility and snag some paydata, then I'll offer them a percentage of what that data is worth as a flat fee, and none of this per diem business.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (cndblank @ Aug 2 2010, 10:09 PM) *
So the Johnson will either provide the gear or pay enough to make it worth it to the runners to cover the risk and wear and tear.


And how do you define this, pre-run, with the runners not having anything but the Johnson's description to go by?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Smokeskin @ Aug 2 2010, 08:35 PM) *
And how do you define this, pre-run, with the runners not having anything but the Johnson's description to go by?


The runners don't dictate the price - the Johnson does. If the runners threaten to walk mid-run after doing their legwork, they can renegotiate the contract.
sabs
Don't your Runners have "this run is nothing like what you said it was, frak you, here's all your money minus a 15% frak you fee?" clause in their jobs?

Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 2 2010, 08:47 PM) *
Don't your Runners have "this run is nothing like what you said it was, frak you, here's all your money minus a 15% frak you fee?" clause in their jobs?


Yes, it's the 'I'm never working in this town again' clause. The Johnson will renegotiate if it's close to crunch time and the job is obviously worth more than the sum they were originally offered. Canny runners will see this up front. Very canny runners will still get the job done and renegotiate after the fact when they have the power and the Johnson does not.

If they don't want to do the job, they'd better return all the money or it had better have been made clear at the start that the down is non-refundable. Don't screw with the folks who write the paychecks unless they really deserve it.
CypherDragon
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 2 2010, 02:35 PM) *
"Per diem" and "expenses" are buzzwords for 'blank check'. As a Johnson, I would never hire a team using those words. They get a flat rate based on what *I* figure their risks are going to be. I don't trust my deniable assets. If I did, they wouldn't be deniable. I will assume they will try to get the most money out of me possible, and I will destroy their reputations if they cross me. If I need a team of five to break into a lightly-defended facility and snag some paydata, then I'll offer them a percentage of what that data is worth as a flat fee, and none of this per diem business.



Remember that Shadowrunners are professional mercenaries, not street gangers. A runner team that takes up too much time, or has too high an expense bill, for a given run ends up getting a rep of being too expensive for their results. They might be able to bilk a couple of Johnsons, but after that the word will be out, and good luck getting any more contracts. Same thing the opposite way...if the Johnson gets a rep as telling his deniable assets that the situation is much less dangerous than it actually is for the sake of saving a few nuyen, he'll have a hard time finding quality runners for his wetwork.

Taking your example, the Johnson hires them to grab your some paydata in a low-security facility. Standard fee of 15% the data worth works out to $3k/person. Or at least that's what he tells the runners. When they get there, they find that the "lightly-defended facility" is a Saeder-Krupp "skunk works" research facility, and the paydata is confidential documents for S-K's newest prototype.

There has to be a modicum of trust between the Johnson and the runners, or business simply won't work.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CypherDragon @ Aug 2 2010, 08:54 PM) *
Remember that Shadowrunners are professional mercenaries, not street gangers. A runner team that takes up too much time, or has too high an expense bill, for a given run ends up getting a rep of being too expensive for their results. They might be able to bilk a couple of Johnsons, but after that the word will be out, and good luck getting any more contracts. Same thing the opposite way...if the Johnson gets a rep as telling his deniable assets that the situation is much less dangerous than it actually is for the sake of saving a few nuyen, he'll have a hard time finding quality runners for his wetwork.


Certainly. It's in the Johnson's best interest to see the team succeed (unless the team's ruin is the point) so he's not going to greatly downplay the security. That's also why a midrange renegotiation may be in order. If the exterior security on the initial legwork is greater than originally speculated, then they bring the price up and probably get some more information on what they're retreiving. Just enough information to tantilize, just enough money to make them hungry.

QUOTE
Taking your example, the Johnson hires them to grab your some paydata in a low-security facility. Standard fee of 15% the data worth works out to $3k/person. Or at least that's what he tells the runners. When they get there, they find that the "lightly-defended facility" is a Saeder-Krupp "skunk works" research facility, and the paydata is confidential documents for S-K's newest prototype.

There has to be a modicum of trust between the Johnson and the runners, or business simply won't work.


A modicum, yes. But not complete. The only people getting per diem are corporate employees on assignment. The Johnson is going to have a good idea of what the security's going to be like based off the job he wants done. The team can find the particulars, and the price is going to be negotiated based off the value of the job being done plus the difficulty. If the Johnson says it's a 'lightly defended facility', then the only time it's going to be the SK skunk-works is when he wants that team to die horribly. Such Johnsons don't last long.
sabs
Especially if the runner team realizes it's a skunk-works facility before they go in, and instead go and murder the johnson for being a backstabbing bastard, or worse.. incompetent.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Aug 2 2010, 10:03 PM) *
Especially if the runner team realizes it's a skunk-works facility before they go in, and instead go and murder the johnson for being a backstabbing bastard, or worse.. incompetent.


Well I'd hope they would. Legwork doesn't just mean 'walking to the bus stop', after all. nyahnyah.gif
Kren Cooper
I think it's something you have to play very much by ear, and on a case-by-case basis.

When I'm GMing, I try to keep in mind what lifestyles the players are trying to maintain, what goals they are currently working towards, and a fudge factor based on what they've been up to.

So, if the runners are trying to maintain a lifestyle that costs 8k per month each, and the team has 5 runners, they need 40k to break even...
Factor in the chance to have a bit of cash tucked under the matress for Bert's new cyberware, and Ernie wants a new bunch of elementals...
Add in a bit of extra as the team have done their jobs well recently and their rep is on the up... so I pitch the job as being worth 80k to them. From there it's up to them to negotiate against the Johnson, try to cover expenses, get corp gear in lieu of some of the nuyen etc

This gives the team enough cash to pay their bills and put enough by so that they can tangibly get closer to their long term goals. There's a feeling of progression in the campaign, and achievement from the players, which generally makes for happiness.

Alternatively, if the team are playing like drongos, then the cash on offer starts to go down, until they're barely covering their bills for housing. Expense negotiations get tougher as the word on the street says the team are hard up and need the work... and they're lucky to come out of the run with loose change. I start having people call on them to settle debts, and make them account for every nuyen, and really emphasise the financial straights they're in - until they shape up their action to repair their rep, or start going the extra mile and making money on side-missions, extra work or just being damm clever.

It's a very careful balancing act, and I suspect that there's no stock answer - it's going to vary so much depending on the style of game you play, the number of players, group composition, how RP focussed the play sessions are etc - just something you have to learn by doing!

In our last Seattle based campaign (in which I was playing, not GMing), our team tithed about 20% of our income to a "group stash" to cover losses in the line of duty... covering things like elementals that had to be sent on a remote service, drones doing kamikaze runs to cover our retreat if if went pear shape, replacement vehicles, medical bills accrued while the mage grew a new leg - that sort of stuff. We ended up with over a million in the stash, and it was dolled out in turn to help fund upgrades and investments that made the team stronger. Our team would often not take jobs for less than 20k per person, and our rep was solid enough that we could generally demand some level of expenses or cover from the Johnson for things going screwy in the mission.

In our current campaign (which I'm GMing) I've got a bunch of Tibetan monks running around the world doing mystical quests for a bunch of enigmatic free spirits - see this thread if you're curious. They're a fairly kickass bunch of phys adds, and probably not that far below the level of the Seattle campaign team members - but so far they've managed to earn about 2k each from all of their runs combined. They're constantly having to look for ways to make a quick buck while they're on missions, as they don't get paid nuyen for the runs themselves. This puts a totally different spin on things, and means that rolling some drug dealer, chipheads or joy girls for their stash is a major win for them cash-wise.

For the OP: What sort of campaign setting and power level are you running with? Any meaningful answer people could offer here would have to be related to this info in my opinion.
Daylen
always get cost plus contracts!
cndblank
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 2 2010, 02:35 PM) *
You can compare it to the contractor busting the transmission on his truck when trying to haul more weight than the machine is rated for. The homeowner isn't paying him extra to buy a new truck - those costs are included in the revenue the contractor is getting from the job. Foundation poles and other work is included on an initial estimate; such things can be forseen. If the runners know they're going to lose a $20k drone, then they'd better negotiate up to include it because it's not the Johnson's damn problem if his assets break their toys.



No, it's up to them to negotiate up. The Johnson has a fixed budget for this job, any excess he likely gets to pocket. He's going to get the best setup for the lowest bidder. It's up to the fixer to find a team that fits the Johnson's requirements, and it's up to the team to have the gear. If they need more, they negotiate an extra deposit and get at least half down. Any of this per diem malarkey is precisely that. The very moment that you negotiate a per diem for a runner, you just bought a couch potato. Congratulations.


"Per diem" and "expenses" are buzzwords for 'blank check'. As a Johnson, I would never hire a team using those words. They get a flat rate based on what *I* figure their risks are going to be. I don't trust my deniable assets. If I did, they wouldn't be deniable. I will assume they will try to get the most money out of me possible, and I will destroy their reputations if they cross me. If I need a team of five to break into a lightly-defended facility and snag some paydata, then I'll offer them a percentage of what that data is worth as a flat fee, and none of this per diem business.


For run of the mill runs sure.
You don't need the best talent but then the stakes are not as high.

When they are then you would likely be fired when your lowest bid runner fail to deliver.
Cause you get what you pay for.

Do you think a major Exec is going to worry about a few hundred thousand when the pay off is in the millions?

And if they found your hand in the cookie jar...



cndblank
QUOTE (CypherDragon @ Aug 2 2010, 02:54 PM) *
Remember that Shadowrunners are professional mercenaries, not street gangers. A runner team that takes up too much time, or has too high an expense bill, for a given run ends up getting a rep of being too expensive for their results. They might be able to bilk a couple of Johnsons, but after that the word will be out, and good luck getting any more contracts. Same thing the opposite way...if the Johnson gets a rep as telling his deniable assets that the situation is much less dangerous than it actually is for the sake of saving a few nuyen, he'll have a hard time finding quality runners for his wetwork.

Taking your example, the Johnson hires them to grab your some paydata in a low-security facility. Standard fee of 15% the data worth works out to $3k/person. Or at least that's what he tells the runners. When they get there, they find that the "lightly-defended facility" is a Saeder-Krupp "skunk works" research facility, and the paydata is confidential documents for S-K's newest prototype.

There has to be a modicum of trust between the Johnson and the runners, or business simply won't work.


True.


And it works the other way too.

Professional mercenaries are in demand.

If a Johnson gets a rep for being a cheapskate who down plays the risks and wants to work on a shoe string budget, a fixer is not going to put his best talent forward.

And runners are going to either pass on the run, nitpick the details, or find some other way to make it work for them.

And even if they don't outright betray the Johnson and sell it to the highest bidder, there is always the last minute re-negotiation of the run payoff or grabbing some extras.

And word will get around. A fixer knows the team, he knows what he fixed for the team, and he knows the Johnson.

So he will have a pretty good idea of what went down even if he doesn't get any info from the team.

He is also getting a slice so a cheap Johnson means less for his bottom line too.
Voran
In a way, I prefer the way the Corporate Enclaves section on Neo Tokyo presents it. Sure you have Johnsons, but the Fixer is the primary point of contact. Its the Fixer's reputation that is on the line, and they take their honor seriously, so its on them to 1)Pick a good team 2)adequately compensate them 3)improve their chances to succeed. Failing at any of those 3 can result in loss of face, loss of reputation and consequently loss of further work.

So you don't have a Runners vs Johnson negotiation challenge, rather the fixer has already 'taken care of that', though there can be some wiggle room negotiation between fixer and runners, since the fixer is also looking out for their own percentage/profit and will have likely negotiated a larger fee from the Johnson in the first place.

Since in this case the Fixer knows the runners he's going to use, he also knows what their fee ranges are, so theoretically it should at least be an initial better match than some Johnson making an across the table initial offer.
Mesh
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 2 2010, 04:35 PM) *
"Per diem" and "expenses" are buzzwords for 'blank check'. As a Johnson, I would never hire a team using those words. They get a flat rate based on what *I* figure their risks are going to be. I don't trust my deniable assets. If I did, they wouldn't be deniable. I will assume they will try to get the most money out of me possible, and I will destroy their reputations if they cross me. If I need a team of five to break into a lightly-defended facility and snag some paydata, then I'll offer them a percentage of what that data is worth as a flat fee, and none of this per diem business.

Exactly.

Mesh
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Aug 2 2010, 10:35 PM) *
The Johnson has a fixed budget for this job, any excess he likely gets to pocket. He's going to get the best setup for the lowest bidder.


Which is exactly why you won't see flat rates. Smart Johnson realizes that for easy runs, offering "plus expenses" will mean the runners won't ask for extra money to cover the risk - and since this is easy, he's not going to end up paying for expenses.

Now you're left with the Johnsons with the medium and difficult jobs. The Johnsons with the medium jobs use the same reasoning - either they go with "plus expenses", or ends up paying a disproportionally large portion of the risk fee, since most of the losses happen on difficult jobs.

I don't buy into this macho Johnson "they must do the job as I say at the price I say or I'll destroy their reputation" and gungho runner "we must complete any job at any terms of we'll never work again". I have them act with shrewdness. I have them respond to economic incentives. I have the benefit of having some economic education and I've done lots of negotiations through my RL business, and I'm going to inject that experience into my game rather than ignore it.
nemafow
From my point of view: a Johnson is going to offer the lowest amount of $$ to the runners that he can get away with, to maximise his own profits. Although he might offer the group $10k, the job is more likey worth more like $13k, and the Johnson knows that.
This allows a little wiggle room, so with negotiations the team can get a little more. If the runner team is willing to take the job at his first offer, then all the power to him. If they do manage to sqeeze a few more $$ from him, his profit margin is going to be smaller, but its still within the numbers that gains him a profit that is worth all the hassle/risk of hiring the team. If he doesnt gain a profit/advantage, why bother hiring the team?
Voran
On the other hand, consistently lowballing offers will also make the rounds in reputation. Sure the short term Johnsons don't give a flying fart about it, but the fixers should. But it does depend on how people see their fixer. If your fixer is supposed to be your talent agent/representative and they keep sending you gigs that you end up having to renegotiate _every_ time, you're going to start looking for another fixer. (This is actually good practice anyway, so you can't get burned/locked out in the event something happens to one of your fixers). By that same notion, fixers are aware they aren't the only game in town, and if they can't keep clients and runners satisfied, they'll be out of work for the fixer that can.
Runner Smurf
I'm with Doc Chase: As soon as you go cost-plus or add in a per diem, the runners are going to use it. They'd be foolish not to scope out the target for a few extra days. Their execution options can include a lot more overhead at no risk to them. It's not a question of being honest or reputation, it's about risk.

Or, to refer to procurement principals, the various forms of contract are all about who eats the risk. In a cost-plus contract the risk is on the purchaser of the good or service. The supplier has no risk, and wants to drive up the cost so that the plus is bigger. In such contracts, the purchaser has to watch the supplier like a hawk to make sure he isn't getting extorted - constant status reports, careful accounting, and even embedding personnel with the supplier. Lots and lots of paperwork. Take a look at a government cost-plus contract and you'll have some idea of what paperwork hell looks like. All that oversight by the Johnson that a cost-plus contract requires creates even more risk: risk that the datatrail will be compromised and risk that deniability will be lost because of the frequent communications with his supposedly deniable asset. He doesn't want that. His backer's definitely don't want that, so they will avoid it.

In a fixed-price contract, on the other hand, the risk is on the supplier. The purchaser doesn't care about how anything gets done, as long as they get what they paid for. It's in the supplier's interest to keep costs down for maximum profit and to do the job as quickly as possible so that they can move on to the next contract. Which is exactly what the Johnson wants - as minimal risk to himself as possible. Part of the point of shadowrunners is that the Johnson doesn't know how the heck the team is going to do their thing, which fits perfectly. And from the perspective of the team, they have an incentive for economy of force, which also (generally) means that they do the job quietly with minimal collateral damage.

I include the haggling over expenses as part of the negotiation process and test - "We're expensive because we're good. And one of the reasons we're good is we have good equipment, and we aren't afraid to burn it if that's what the run requires. You want us, you pay for us." That sort of thing. But even then, the expenses are a flat additional fee: 10%-20% (depends on the roll).
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