Magic versus Chrome, Adept trumps Cyber? Options

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe, yes, it does sound ridiculous when you use a straw man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The point is not that the rules *are* to add multipliers. The point is that the rules *could* be rewritten to use additive modifiers.

I thought I made that clear above, but I don't mind repeating it, and again: SR4 clearly uses multipliers, but that doesn't mean a system of additive modifiers is 'stupid', 'mathematically incorrect', etc.

While the values would probably be tweaked, it's not a necessarily bad deal to pay extra for used alphaware, even without an essence reduction. Alphaware is a little stealthier, a little higher Device rating, etc.

[Lanlaorn]

Damage doubled doubled doubled = Damage * 4.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Yea that's a nice example to drop on anyone trying to squeeze out a bit more essence through "creative" math (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) "We could say 200% * 200% * 200% * 200% = 1600% damage or I could interpret this as 4 seperate +100% modifiers that I add together for +400%, which sounds more logical?".

Yerameyahu I fully admit that in terms of games rules the procedure for determining essence could be defined in any whimsical way. I'm just arguing that there's one way that should be everyone's first assumption, which all the book examples use anyway and, entirely by coincidence I'm sure, assuming the other way gives you a greater essence savings.

[Yerameyahu]

Indeed, the RAW is certainly multiplying multipliers. I just feel it's important not to dismiss things (in this case, house rule suggestions) as stupid or vaguely 'incorrect'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Doc Byte]

Oh oh. I totally missed the lack of an R there. My bad.

Well, he might drive a sub, but generally the ability to breath water's a nice thing under water.

[CanRay]

Well, he might drive a sub, but generally the ability to breath water's a nice thing under water.

Don't be so sure. If you think air pollution is bad, think about what gets dumped into water!

[Mäx]

yes, and if you do it the other way round:
Essence: 1
Money: 1+1-0.5= 1.5
Thats not a better option.

No, if you use the method of adding the modifiers together(which is used in pretty much every other part of the rules too, ie. the mentioned vehicle modifications and iniation/submersion cost reductions) it becomes
Essence modifier +20%-20%= 0%
Money modifiers -50%+50%= 0%

[Lanlaorn]

Indeed, the RAW is certainly multiplying multipliers. I just feel it's important not to dismiss things (in this case, house rule suggestions) as stupid or vaguely 'incorrect'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I think it just boils down to using common sense, in a situation with prices and discounts multiplicative modifiers should be the first assumption. If we were talking about a game where you had a 5% chance to crit and some effect "increased your chance to crit by 1%" then I think we would all agree that it's additive 5%+1% = 6% simply because 5% *1.01 = 5.05% would be absurd.

It could go either way completely by develoer fiat but IMHO it's generally fairly clear which makes more sense.

[Irion]

@Mäx

Essence modifier +20%-20%= 0%
Money modifiers -50%+50%= 0%

A Datajack costs 500:nuyen:
A Datajack alpha costs 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
So the money "modifier" is:
a) +50%
b) +100%
c) +23.1%

[Mäx]

@Mäx

A Datajack costs 500:nuyen:
A Datajack alpha costs 1000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
So the money "modifier" is:
a) +50%
b) +100%
c) +23.1%

Definedly c, I'm sure of this (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I dont know what i was thinking, but acutually i do think thats much better option then the one where you get your ware at lower essence cost for same price and also get all the side benefits of it being alpha grade.

[Irion]

Well, I do not have a problem with that, because:
1. It would be harder to get and might come with some serious downside. (The guy it was taken from might not be alive, anymore)
2. It is not that much of a big deal.
3. Quality should stay quality, even if second hand.

[Mäx]

1. It would be harder to get and might come with some serious downside. (The guy it was taken from might not be alive, anymore)

Used alpha has slower availebility then standart grade, so im not sure what your talking about.

[Saint Hallow]

Getting back to somewhat on the original topic... I thought there was a way for a person to upgrade their cyberware and only pay the diff in essence (monetary costs not taking into account as that is usually during gameplay between the player and GM).

So... from what I have read of this thread... Adepts can get more and more powerful as well as get more and better powers than a mundane who gets cybered up?

It's been a while since I've played and have only recently gotten back into SR with the new 4th edition and game group.

[Draco18s]

Getting back to somewhat on the original topic... I thought there was a way for a person to upgrade their cyberware and only pay the diff in essence (monetary costs not taking into account as that is usually during gameplay between the player and GM).

Huh what?
No.
When you take out your standard grade 1 Essence ware and put in an alphaware version at 0.8 Essence, you still have a 0.2 Essence "hole" you can use to add more ware without actually taking an Essence hit.

Upgrading ware doesn't cost more Essence, specifically.

[Yerameyahu]

In the (pretty long) long run, yes.

You generally can't 'upgrade' 'ware in that way (that is, pay the difference in *nuyen*). You have to replace it. Because you're almost certainly refilling the 'essence hole' from the replaced 'ware, you effectively *are* paying just the difference in essence.

However, if you replace something with a higher grade version, you might actually have essence left over. You don't get that back; instead, you get an 'essence hole' that you can use for other 'ware.

Draco18s, it certainly could. If he upgraded from Muscles 1 to Muscles 3, it would be more essence. It depends on the exact nature of the upgrade.

[Draco18s]

Draco18s, it certainly could. If he upgraded from Muscles 1 to Muscles 3, it would be more essence. It depends on the exact nature of the upgrade.

Yes, in that sense, you are paying the "Essence Difference."

[Yerameyahu]

By the way, Saint Hollow, the SR Missions rules for upgrade-by-replacing 'ware is you get 30% Nuyen 'trade-in' on the old unit. Not great, but better than a kick in the teeth.

[Saint Hallow]

So then, if I was a Street Samurai who had Wired Reflexes 1 (regular essence cost: 2). During a few sessions, I earned enough nuyen to upgrade my cyber to Wired Reflexes 3 (alpha, essence cost: 2.4)... I would pay to replace the cyberware (the 64,000 nuyen plus whatever other In-Game costs for it), and my character would lose an additional .4 essence only and not 2.4 essence on top of the 2 I lost for the 1st set of wired reflexes. Correct?

[Dakka Dakka]

Correct. To be exact after the old ware is removed he has a hole of 2 essence. his hole is first filled with new ware and any additional essence is deducted afterwards. According to the german translation of Augmentation and gossip about errata you can even fill a whole made by one type of ware by another. So you do not have to decide beforehand if you want to be a Bio- or Cybersam.
Removed ware can be sold like any other loot.

[Yerameyahu]

In previous editions (at least SR3), the essence holes were pretty strict. I'm honestly not positive how they work in SR4, but *my* group basically just makes them fluid.

Under what may be a house rule for us, any 'essence holes' simply add together (a 2.0 essence hole from one removed unit and a 0.5 hole from another unit can be used for a single new 2.5 essence item). You just can't ever get back essence after you spend it, but you never 'lose' any from slicing the piece too small. I'm not sure if this is how SR4 works in the rules; I'm just saying that this is what we do. It's simpler and less punitive to the players, and really people don't change their 'ware very often anyway.

[Dakka Dakka]

that's exactly the way it is. Only in the unerrataed english Augmentation there are two holes, one for cyberware one for bioware.

[Yerameyahu]

Cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In the SR3 rules, I could have sworn you had to fit things *into* the individual holes left by different items, without overflowing the edges. After a few surgeries, you could quickly get tiny slices of essence that nothing fit in (not to mention the complicated 'surgery options' rules).

[Saint Hallow]

Ah... good. Thanks. So... if it is possible to do such, then shouldn't the Street Samurai continue to be as effective as an adept in terms of powers and combat ability? Both the Adept and Samurai pay the same Karma to improve attributes. Both the Adept and Samurai pay the same Karma to improve skills. The Adept has to improve Magic to get more points to buy more powers (I am unsure how they improve powers, like the wired reflexes example I posted above). The Street Samurai simply has to pay more nuyen to get better gear that has cheaper essence cost. I would think there's only so many toys/gear/cyber/tech a Street Samurai would want. Reaction enhancing stuff (wired reflexes, synaptic boosters), some eyes/ears to improve perception or over-come visibility issues (thermo/lowlight/etc), physical boosters (muscle replace/toner, ortho/dermal,bone stuff). Anything else would be unneeded icing on a cake. For the Adept, improving magic is the same for an attribute (a hefty Karma cost) and then the process of learning/improving the ability. You can't throw away bought powers (can you?), so every choice the adept makes, he/she must keep those powers. You can't get a refund, but the Samurai can, as he/she can replace the cyber for something else, as long as the essence costs are met.

Again... I am new, so I could be wrong (and most likely am).

[Yerameyahu]

Well, that's the discussion that's been taking place. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

One issue is that the Sam needs *tons* of money to advance after a certain point, and the returns are steeply diminishing. The 'few' items you talk about a Sam wanting can easily cost 10 million Nuyen (and no, there's never 'unneeded icing' (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) ). On the other hand, 'ware indeed is very strong very early, *and* has a wide variety of flexible options.

The Adept does need to avoid choosing stupidly, but let's agree that's a non-issue. (Side note: the question of improving Powers has come up before; honestly, I think most GMs let them pay the difference.) Another point made earlier is that the Adept has the option of getting 'ware, but the Sam can't get Powers; this is a key issue. Also, be aware that Magic doesn't *have* to be increased for more Powers; typically, the rule is used that Initiation (very cheap on Karma, relatively) lets Adepts gain a Power Point (instead of Metamagic).

But, yes, you're right on target with the rest of the thread in that the comparison is not cut-and-dried, especially without considering the short, medium, and long time frames of play.

[Saint Hallow]

Another point made earlier is that the Adept has the option of getting 'ware, but the Sam can't get Powers; this is a key issue.

OK, stupid, newb question... if you lose essence, you lose a point of Magic. Magic is a bought attribute, so you could have a Magic of 3, 4, or 5. Everyone has 6 Essence. If I am an Adept with Magic: 5, and Essence: 6. I get some cyber/bio. Now my essence is 5.7 or something. Don't I lose 1 point of Magic? Even though my Magic is only a 5, that was the amount I started with.

[Traul]

You lose both current and maximum Magic. In your example, you had 5/6, you take some cyber and you fall down to 4/5. In both cases you may buy the remaining point with karma later.