Ever since Physical Adepts were introduced in second edition, they've over shadowed Street Samurai. Whereas the Sammie has a six point limit of essence that is partially put off by grades of cyberware for exhorbitant amounts of nuyen, Adepts have no limit to their magic attribute due to initiation. Their abilities, with the exception of internal commlinks, radios, etc, are for the most part superior to their cyber equivilant, have no social modifiers, and won't kill you if you have too much. An Adept with six points of powers loses an essence point; it's a set back and must initiate to regain the lost point. A street sam that takes a point of essence loss when he has 5+ points of cyber is simply dead. Street sams are harder to heal magically. They are obvious, are penalized for tasks such as swimming due to their weight.

I realize that not everything in Shadowrun isn't meant to be balanced in order to keep a semblance of reality (sometimes rock simply beats scissors) but this does seem a little off considering how rare the Awakened are still supposed to be and how attractive they can be in a long running campaign.

One idea I had was to only allow three levels of initiation to correspond to the various grades of cyber, essentially reducing their power cost from then on. This would allow a 12 point cap at third level rather than infinite levels.

Any other thoughts?

Sammies spend money.

Adepts spend karma.

Guess it all depends on how much of each you're giving the team.

You're comparing "infinite growth" to "immediate satisfaction" and coming to the rational conclusion that "infinite" is better than "now."

However, at chargen Street Sams can have far, far more 'ware than an Adept can have powers.

Adepts have to pay with Karma.

Certain types of cyber can give you the same effect for MUCh cheaper.

if your Street Sam is combining Bio and cyber properly, he can squeeze in an awful lot of upgrades into his 5.99 Essence.

There is a problem with Essence Draining monsters.
Essence Drain can ruin a character faster than you can say oops. it's probably worse than shooting the character dead.
I've been sorely tempted in the past to do something like this:

Drain Damage * Current Essence / 6 = Essence Lost.
Let say that normally the attack causes 1 point of essence damage. (ouch)
1 * 6/6 = 1
1 * 5/6 = .83
1 * .2/6 = .03 essence loss.
The less essence you have, the harder it is for you to be drained fully.
Though if you drop below say .01 essence, then it's the same as hitting 0.

This.

Also, making an adept with plenty of Wares is a very, very, viable option.

Pure adepts with no Wares are not great at 400BP chargen. If you're doing like a 750 karma chargen, and your GM lets you initiate like 5 times in chargen, you can do a lot with them. I've never actually seen this happen but some folks here on dumpshock say they let it happen all the time.

I really hate Cyber+Magic characters.
They break the game, and make all other concepts seem chumpish.

Yup. I have a few fights between adepts and sammies in my signature, and it's pretty evenly split. That said, the Adept who also had a synaptic booster and some more bioware was pretty badass.

-DrZ

I'm with you on this. I think there should be some hard rules advantages to remaining pure that mitigate the disadvantages of remaining pure.

Yes... Physical Adepts was introduced under 1st edition in the first edition of The Grimoire.

Lars

Well, a cyber-adept is pretty BP heavy; spending the extra 10 (or 25, if you're going 6 magic) on BP is costly. Probably the best setup is 5(4) magic, plus the 1 point of bioware/cyberware. And if you're putting in 0.7 bioware/0.6 cyberware, that's some money on gear too.

A question I'm thinking of now; what's the biggest bang for your buck for those essence costs? I'm thinking synaptic booster 1, platelet factories on the bioware, but what for cyber?

magic + Wares is BP cost heavy. That doesn't mean it's not BP cost efficient.

If you want to be throwing a huge dicepool for 1 or two skills, it can be well worth it. If you want your character to be a little more well rounded and don't see a need for dicepools that big, just go with Wares.

Why? Why should a less effective option be boosted? Should the street sam be boosted for not using the smartlink or the rigger for not implanting a control rig or not installing a rigger adaptation?

In 2e, bioware did not effect your essence unless you were a mage, and the essence costs for ware were generally higher. Andawakended types were at +2 to all there TNs when n VR. I personally think all magically active types should have sensitive system that also applies to gene/bioware as a point free disadvantage that comes along with all the awesome that is awakened. And I would not mind taking on a dice pool penalty for actions in VR.

Ware was pretty competative until they started to do some real ware hate like increasing the cost of skillsofts to rediculous levels and imposing the first aid penalty against essence loss for all types of healing. That and as new and better magic and powers have come out ware hasn't really caught up. Then there's the fluff issues about highly cybered people being an aberation in society and I've come to the conclusion that someone on the team really hates the cyber portion of the sixth world.

If you're making a character thats' going to be in a long term campaign, than you're a fool if you don't go cyber+magic.

You can start off tight but interesting, and you have yourself karma AND money avenues for advancement.

Adept might not even be the best choice. You can get some cheap combat efficiency with sustaining foci and Combat Sense and Enhanced Reaction.

As for Cyber:
neo, genetic stat mods, platelet factory, trauma dampening.
There's some great great things in the .1-.4 category in bioware.
Cyberware just pick something up for cheap

.75 Bio and .5 cyber still fits inside of 5 essence, and there's some very nice toys.
Later on you can initiate AND pick up beta cyber/bio
Heck, for that kind of character Type-O starts looking delicious.

If you have the money for the good stuff, there isn't enought ware in the books for a lack of essence to be anykind of limit.

Yeah, but the enough money quickly hits the why aren't I buying a permanent high lifestyle and retiring stage.

It depends on the cyberware. Sure Delta Move By Wire 3 would be a fortune, but say you're a mage who's just fitting in a Commlink, Sim Module, Datajack and Skillwires? Those are 2,000, 5,000, 500 and 2,000 x Rating each so it would be quite reasonable to start with only a few and then get Deltaware versions at 20,000, 50,000, 5,000 and 20,000 x Rating each. Then you've got room for Cybereyes and Cyberears which are also drit cheap.

Only the really high end Street Sam stuff and almost all Bioware is a really big moneysink to upgrade. Everything else you can slowly turn from Alpha to Delta. Hell you'll be paying more to upgrade the accessories in your cybereyes than the cybereyes themselves.

Magic has generally overshadowed mundane characters in practically every system ever devised. Shadowrun is no different.

Adepts made for stupidly powerful specialists in SR3 and can get that way in SR4. It's probably easier (based on what I see here) in SR4 to make Awakened characters broken. The problem isn't with the 'Ware, it's with the inability of mundanes to cope with magic at all. If it's harder to heal a low essence target it should be logically harder to harm them with magic given the setting's fluff. Of course the shift to gutterpunk and lower payments makes the 'Ware user lag further.

I wouldn't know for certain, I hated the core mechanic of SR4 enough that I changed to a totally different system. I don't even bother with SR3 now because it sucks for balance unless I'm willing to get into an arms race with my players.

I guess it all comes down to motivation then. I've a couple of characters in my group that are looking to do some serious upgrades because retirement isn't their end-game plan. In fact, they've got personal scores to settle that they feel they need the upgrades to be able to dish out.

Depending on the type of payment the runner may never have 100K¥ in his bank account but he may have gotten credit worth that sum at a beta-/deltaclinic. We all know that there are easier and safer methods of acquiring moderate wealth, for some reason those options are not available for the characters, this needn't change just because they have a lot of cash.

I'm not even referring to Essence Drain so much as overflow damage. If you decide to use any of the optional rules, cyber takes an even greater dive with several side effects such as cancer, mental instability, and even astral hazing (without even going into the cyberzombie rules). With so many incompatibles in cyber and bioware for armor or reflexes specifically, it's difficult to get any kind of high end stats that an adept can. Plus, as was pointed out in the 'now' vrs 'long term', unless you have exceptional qualities that allow you to purchase equipment over Availability 12, even that is a dead end. Most often, a street sam can't begin play with anything over rating 2. An adept has no such limitations other than their beginning magic attribute.

Really, about the only advantage a Street Sam has is the number of free actions and 'gimmicks' they can have in order to improvise. Cyber guns, boosted mental attributes and wireless control are all advantages, but it takes a lot of innovation and specialized gears to make up for the lack of balance between the two similar role archtypes.

Yes, re-read the rules on background count. Then tell me again, Ki-Ads are better off than Streetsams.



*lol*

Sorry, but that's plain nonsense. I've spent nearly 500 karma points on my Essence 2, Magic 5 cyber-mage and he's still not much better than a pure mage or sam fresh out of chargen.

Maybe you didn't really build him right.
And he's probably as good as /both/.

Mages make great gun bunnies, especially with a couple of 'ware options.
Mages also make great meatshields.

There is but one way to answer this most controversial of topics: Sangre y Acero.

I'll build a cyber-fighter to take on your physad. Pick a Karma limit and a limit on spending for newyen, and I'll happily wipe the floor with any adept anyone can bring. (if I'm wrong and you wipe the floor with me, won't it feel so much better now that I've arrogantly pronounced my superiority?)

Go over there and explain what the Smoking Mirror is.

But it's also a good idea. Settle it in the ring.

Done, I linked to wikipedia.

For the rest of you: Sangre y Acero, we need the crowd to give a thumbs up or down, so come and throw in your two cents worth.

I agree with this statement. As a member of an (almost) all-mundane team I like the things presented in the SCIprotect thread, and have been thinking of writing up some similar gear. If anybody is interested in some mundane solutions to magical mishaps, please let me know. I'd like to write some things up, but only if there's enough interest and other people might use the ideas.

That being said, adepts vs. cybermonsters is an issue of specialist vs. generalist. Adepts are stupidly good dicepool stackers, but it's hard to make them good at more than a couple of things. They are easily the best at what they do, but not terribly great at other things because of the limitations of adept powers.

There are a few neat things that adept powers can do that 'ware can't, such as running on treetops and up walls. However, if you look at abilities exculsive to cyber/bioware (Drone hand, ultrawideband, smuggling compartments, implanted guns), 'ware tends to be a lot more useful. As far as abilities shared by 'ware and adept powers, cyber and bioware not only tend to be cheaper, but you can also cram more in you.

So it's dicepools vs. diversity.

Yup too many superfluous knowledge skills, I guess.

Finally got that damn upload working.

The ring is where everyone shadowruns.

Ok, just because Grok doesn't have all his qualities listed, how'd he get Dual Natured, Claws, and Low Light vision? (Especially the dual natured part). As I don't see him being either a mage, adept, drake, or shifter.

He's a ghoul, but with all the cyber he should have lost that.

He's a ghoul. Or was, once the pixie's done with him.

That's a very nice well rounded character

but it's not a min-max monstrosity that COULD be built with the same amount of karma and cash

Yes, its unclear if he bought up his magic high enough to survive the essence loss.

I thought the consensus was that ghouls *want* to lose Dual-Natured, because it's (apparently) a huge drawback? You keep the (worthless) claws either way.

I did this - only for cyber though, they still could take sensitive system for bioware though.


That's an idea. Something to think about.

But the adept vs cyber thing really is really about long term growth vs immediate gratification. Personally, I like the long term growth concept (probably why I liked playing jedi in Star Wars (d6 version, of course), also) but with the street sammie you could start with some very awesome abilities and have your 'gowth' be in increasing skills at first - which is generally easier and faster than initiating and increasing a magic rating.

Doooo itttt.

As Johnny well knows, I'm in favor of mundane anti-magic as well. Though my 5 Willpower Fomori is able to shrug off many magical attacks, his more squishy friends tend to not fair so well... Some of the stuff in the SCIprotect thread was exactly what SHOULD have been in the core book to begin with. If you can't cure the disease (tech that can stop the spell from happening in the first place), treat the symptoms (tech that works to counteract the known physiological consequences of the spell). It's kind of ridiculous that magic has been around so long and, according to the books, no one has done anything like this before.

Stats/Max--Karma=Total
BOD: 11/13 -- 90 = 90
AGI: 05/06 -- 42 = 132
REF: 07/08 -- 66 = 198
STR: 09/11 -- 72 = 270
CHA: 02/03 -- 06 = 276
INT: 05/06 -- 42 = 318
LOG: 03/04 -- 15 = 333
WIL: 07/08 -- 66 = 399
EDG: 04/06 -- 27 = 426
MAG: 04/05 -- 27 = 453

Max spendable: 485

Yes, we want more SCI-Protect. I am working on Manatech solutions for the mundane, and I'd post them, but I'm planning on using them for Shadow War, so I'll keep them secret until then. The rules I'm self imposing for my Manatech inventions are that I'm creating nothing new, just finding ways to use and abuse what is written without breaking the spirit of the thing.

While I think magic is too powerful I hate things like Famori and many of the other mundane vs magic solutions. It feels like someone is trying to solve the issue with a hammer, when the problem is the core concepts. There is way too much on/off of how to shut down magic, you 1/2 the force making spells fairly weak sauce, you have rating infinity FAB2 barriers trapping people in the astral, you have background count X that shuts them down.

It's actually not as cut-and-dry as you make it seem. My team recently did a number on a Talismonger's shop (to steal some tablet or other), and - surprise, surprise - it had magical security, in the form of a Force 5 (I believe) Spirit of Man with Stunbolt attached (keep in mind our entire team is completely non-magical - this is not a small obstacle). My Fomori beatstick had to spend 3 of his 5 edge points, and he still walked out with 6 points of stun damage (dragging his incoherent and unconscious teammates behind, with the booty slung in his duffle). We were victorious, true (sort of, anyway - the spirit fled before I could finish it off), but it was far from a one-sided rout.

That being said, I partially agree with you, though I'm fine with the on-off anti-magic stuff. It only becomes a problem when they are the ONLY ways for a mundane to counter magic, like it is now. Like you say, the problem is the core concept. What we need are some mundane solutions that offer bonuses to dice pools and such (see SCIprotect's many amazing deals!).

Through simple selection process, the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait will become very common.

I guess this is why since...I dunno 2e or so? I've liked chemical weapons. Actually its not just for use vs combat monsters, I love chemical weapons against all types. Cept the rare dude in full chemseal.

Wait. What?

Magic is capped at Essence+Initiation. So if an Essence 6, Magic 6 Adept loses a point of Essence, Magic is reduced to (and capped at) 5 until it initiates.

Isn't Dual Natured the only thing offseting their being blind!? Because last I checked--which admittedly was a while ago--you can't fix a ghoul's blindness with cyber (that's why its a flaw it represents something that can't be fixed with "modern" medical magic/technology).

Okay. That's so not how I read it. I read it as any adept who takes 6 points of powers loses a point of essence, which makes no sense.

Nope. You can explicitly replace a ghoul's vision with cybereyes, or simply strap a camera to their forehead and trode it into their brain.

Pretty much why I've given up on SR and changed over to Alpha Omega for my dystopian future RPG needs. I consider it a good thing when an NPC fireteam (based on current Marine Corps structure/doctrine) makes an optimized party head for cover. Plus "magic" that actually costs the user a decent amount and at higher levels, given a poor roll, can kill the user? Bonus!

Ultimately magic is an "I WIN!" button in SR, it's also a whole hell of alot rarer than one would assume from looking at this site in particular. If only 1 in 10000 (1 in 100 of the 1 in 100 Awakened) people are likely to have enough mojo to be magic based runners, there isn't any way that they couldn't find a high paying job with a mega. I realize that PCs may often have a "screw the man" anarchist bend, but that still doesn't explain why a normal four man team (circa SR3) is a Shaman, a Mage, a Face and a Gun Bunny (either sammy or adept). That's 50 to 75% of the average team being Awakened. That's a touch greater than the more statistically probable 100th of a percent...