That has plagued me for three weeks now believe it or not.

The Synaptic booster is prohibitively expensive to a starting adept. However you know you want one eventually (even if it just serves as a merry bridge to walk down towards your twinked out MBW build). I don't even have a game to play these Adepts in (I'm currently running one game, and occasionally play a goodnatured Troll Street Sam in another), but I'm building them anyway. I keep building them, tracking them, streamlining them. I'm going over starting builds, looking at total costs of Karma and Nuyen at different points in the career. Like Rube Goldberg and the mousetrap, I am becoming obsessed with building a better Adept.

Hypothetically you could take the Adept increase, and drop a point of essence in Str/Agl upgrades from Muscle Aug/Toner. For a defensive build another 10k and an essence point gets you 2 points of dermal which you can stack with your Mystic Armor, start out-tanking trolls from the get go. Versatile starting build without too much cash investment. You can throw in Synaptic when you get the time and cash, use the other 1.5 power points for whatever.

Alternatively, in the long run you can write 3 essence off as a loss. You could start that way with Alpha Wired 2, Biocompatability, and that leads you with .9 essence (1.8 points) of Bioware to work in at your leisure. Ideally this should last you until you've got some Karma under your belt, initiated, another point of magic, a skill or two, and 180k for Synaptic 2 or Alpha MBW.

I think the ideal goal is Biocompatability (Cyber), Adapsin Treatment, Beta MBW 3 (which would cost only 2.5 essence and 700,000 more essence but a lot less cash than screwing around with Synaptic Grades) and that gives you a whole 1.0 to spend in Bioware, you lose in Bio but gain a vastly superior reaction as well as skills on demand. Or maybe it's full synaptic boosters, trying to level out a bit of "half off cyber" and some muscle aug and toner.

Then again, MBW and WR are pretty easy to manage at low levels, but getting level 3 in either hurts pretty badly in the Essence department even with hefty investment in Beta Ware. So maybe it's....

Yeah, can you see why I've been obsessing over this yet?

That depend completly on wat archetype the character is, many of the ones i ended up maiking into adepts wheren't main combatants so they just needed improved iniative 2, so they have 2 IP and can actually cintribute in combat.
Also you can make a quite intresting sammy build by going adept with 6(4) magic for improved iniative 3 and 2 points of essence worth of implants.
Thats a main combatant with 4IP(very uncommon on character straight out of chargen) and a selection of expensive ware, not having to get a iniative boosters with money/essence opens some intresting doors.
Also this leaves you open either to getting some usefull adept powers or sacrificing your magic for more ware when you iniate, even better is if your GM lets you get extra powerpoints as metamagic when iniating meaning you can both take powers and get more ware.

The sammie can get the same ware without having to buy Magic with karma to compensate.

@Chainsaw Samurai

First: Any sane GM with some decent mathematical skills would set you to 5*0.7*0.9*0.9= 2.835 Points of essence loss.
(This is less because of this example it is more to stop things like: Delta+Adapsin+Biocompatability. (Or the trick with Type O and Biocompatability(bio) done with some SURGE)
Later is realy ugly. Getting your basic bioware for 40%. Which means every basic cyberware in the corebook (exept Adrenaline Pump because it sucks) for 4 points of essence.


I guess this is the more effectiv aim. MBW 2 is nearly as good as MBW3. The bonus to the Skillwire is not so usefull, the bonus to reaktion possibly hits the cap anyway.
The price is close to exploding as is the availability.
85k to 175:nuyen: thats more then double.
And the availabiliy goes from 18 to 25.

@Smokeskin

If you play like that, adepts and mages are gods on earth for sure. (As soon as they tap into ware)

Need an example?

I can't find it when I need it, and I'm pressed for time. I'm with you 100%, but the writers aren't, and I quadruple checked the entry last night before posting. Somewhere (I believe) in Aug, there is a reference to the fact that reductions in essence cost are treated as additive rather than multiplicative. I thought it was under Adapsin, but Adapsin says to "round normally," which shouldn't even be a factor. Worst case scenario, I'm right. Best case scenario this is another case of flagrantly contradicting rules to throw into the pile of stuff to be disregarded or interpreted as seen fit.



But can't get a butt naked -- stack with everything -- armor past 3 (4 for trolls), complains about having no direct counter to ItNW (Magic Kung Fu!), has no access to additional dice to resist spells, and can't take his unarmed combat damage to astronomical levels by combining bone density and critical strike (although I'm shaky on this one, as I usually don't bother with the unarmed stuff).

A couple of nifty unique (and usually overpriced) powers aside, I'm not saying the Adept can do things the Sam can't do. I'm saying the Adept can do them bigger by combining overlapping powers and ware.

For the record, I enjoy playing vanilla Street Sam and the occasional Rigger. I don't know why I've got this obsession, but I do.

I've found enjoyment in very finely tuned awakened critter mystic adepts.

That is: very low on PP spending, low-force high-effect spells, and no 'ware.

No matter what role I pick I usually go fairly Vanilla. My latest sam Boomtown AKA Joe Cannon was very basic, no bioware even since we were set in 2050. He was a blast to play.

Though my avatar name is from a non-vanilla mage concept. Shinobi Killfist orc ninja(stole the idea from a D&D board) he was a mage but he used his magic to duplicate ninja movies he had seen in all the movies he loved, like UCAS ninja 4.

But still I like basic core concepts, street Sam, rigger, shaman, decker, hermetic mage.

I love riggers, but in 4E I feel like a chump if I'm not also a hacker.
I just get frustrated when the 'optimal' build is a mysticadept with ware who can do everything i can do, but better.

I think one big problem with it is the mages can use all the tech norms can use and just as well. So mages just have a added benefit of magic. Now it is a point system so a lot of points go to magic if you want to be decent at it, and really at rigging that mystic adept is what 3 dice at most better. I'm not sure that is really changing things much.

Edit to add: I don't think riggers exist any more there are just hackers who can drive well.

Er, there are still Riggers. A dedicated Hacker has a very different initial build to a dedicated Rigger, though they can look a lot like one another by the end.

Otherwise, yeah, balance never seemed a concern. Which is fine, just rather notable as you said.

You can make a Rigger who isn't a hacker.
only take:
hardware, Computer, Electronic Warfare, Cybercombat to any real level
Data Search 2 with maybe a spec (warez)
You don't take software or hacking



Software:
Analyze
Browse
Command (6!)
Encrypt
Reality Filter
Scan
Armor
Attack
Biofeedback Filter
Blackhammer if you're feeling mean
Decrypt
ECCM
Medic
Sniffer
Track

sadly without hacking you can't spoof someone else's drones. But you're a rigger, not a hacker

Sigh, except of course that's stupid because a 4 in Electronics group is 45 karma, and taking Hardware and Computers to 4 and Data search to 2 is 52 karma
Same with taking Electronic Warfare and Cyber combat to 4, for 1 more karma you get the rest of the group to 4.

So yes, if you're playing a rigger, you're a hacker

Why exactly do you care what the "optimal" build is, what does it matter that your build isn't the most "optimal" as long it can do what its supposed to do.
Except in the case where an other player in your group made a character that can do all that you can but better, it shouldn't really matter whether you have the most "optimal" build or not.
And if that case happens then the real problem is players stepping on each others toes.

Right: riggers are hackers (and, honestly, vice versa). As if there were something wrong with that.

I....

that's....

um...

*weeps for world*

That's a lot of house rules, or a lot of split advantages - RAW, Drake advantages (increased stats, etc) only apply in drake form, and augmentation only applies in human form.

Correct sir, which is why drakes don't take well to cyber.
(Why get Wired 4 when it only helps your metahuman half? Suddenly instead of being relatively useful as a dragon, you become entirely useless as all your augmentations turn off and you go down many many armor points).

Edit:
He is also only a latent drake, so unless he's paid the [Giant Karma Cost] after chargen he doesn't even GET his awesome drake powers.

I've yet to see a physad build that can run at 60mph, or jump from the street to a fourth-story window. I'm not saying they can't be done, but I've got a cybered character who can do them reliably... and that's just his legs.

By the same token, while he's got very little illegal ware in his body, Sk8 doesn't exactly go through metal detectors well.

Physads can get unholy amounts of dice in tests that they choose to be good at, and pick up a few nifty abilities that aren't possible with ware. Samurai get more versatility (especially with modular cyberlimbs and reprogrammable nanohives) and a few nifty abilities that aren't possible with magic. It's a tradeoff, and one I've never had a problem with.

500 karma down the line (or however far you go), it's kind of scary what kinds of esoteric skills a samurai can haul out of his ass... and that's assuming he's done moving all of his stats and skills that he wanted maxed out to six, or more.

That's the fun part of it. If he ever awakens to his drake form (what might perhaps happen in this little SR-ED x-over online game running since 3 1/2 years now) he will be much weaker in drake form than in human form. Until then the only advantage of the latent dracomorphosis is his HMHVV immunity. Aside from that this are SR4 w/o A attributes. That'll be a debt of 168 Karmapoints for the attributes x5 and 120 points for becoming a drake. Call it "long-term motivation". And I should mention that I started playing this character in May 2003 and haven't played any other SR character ever since for a total of 85 runs until now.

Your math is incorrect. It's been stated in the past (and it's mathmatically correct) that one takes the base cost and multiplies it against the sum of the cost modifiers.

So if you have Beta + Adapsin + Biocompatibility, your total discount is 0.3 + 0.1 + 0.1 = 0.5

Base Cost x Modifier...

Thus the sum of the discounts is 0.5. This means the Essence cost is 1/2 if you are using Beta & Adapsin & Biocompatibility. This is the way it was done in previous versions of the game and the wording has changed very little. Back before Adam was in charge, it was stated by the line dev the intention is to sum the modifiers first and then multiply the cost against the total.

Yes, and they should have written the book that way, or bothered to publish the Errata.

Trust me. You'll never use your other half. Ever. At least, not voluntarily.
I had to specifically build a character who was actually useful in dracoform (he GAINED armor) and "cybered up gunbunny" is not the name of the game.

@darthmord
Well, lets do it.
Lone Star SWAT Suite
• TrumanTech SunFire A flare compensation, thermographic vision,
and smartlink eye modifications
->0.3
• Biogene TacBone RP plastic bone lacing
->0.5
• Transys Livewire wired reflexes (Rating 1)
->2

Let add it together and: Tada 2.8
So the book says 2.52 for the standard version. Well, lets check it out: 2.8*0.9= 2.52. Well, I guess it is true.
So lets take a look at the alpha version: 2.02

Lets to the math again, both ways:
My way: 2.8*0.9(suite)*0.8(alpha)=2.016 (Well, strikes me as true.)
Your way: 2.8*0.7= 1.96. (Well, it ain't right.)

So the only example in the BOOK goes my way.


Well no, it is not.

*corrected one misstake*

I wish you people would stop misspelling that word.

It's "standard" with a D unless you are referring to the Russian flag.



I think cyberware suites are done differently from everything else.

The Drake form might come handy when he's diving. He's just moved from Hawai'i to New Monaco intending to start some salvage company hunting for lost shipwrecks and treasures in the Mediterranean. He owns a permanent middle-high lifestyle in New Monaco and a sailing yacht to begin with.

The other possible use of a drake form is the armor in astral space.

Ok, so there is still the reduction if you got to sorts of ware.

Lets say you got a MBW 2 and want to add some muscle toner 4 (delta).
Well, after your interpretation it would not cost you a single point of essence. (If you got biocompatibility(bio) you would get some essence.)

So, well I guess it is not working this way either.

Suites essence cost are calculated wrongly and will be fixed in the errata, assuming we ever get it.

I've made a physadept that can do both such things, as well as punch for 10P and use his skimmerdisks to run up walls. Of course, it required houseruling skimmershoes, but other than that he's basically a car made flesh. That can run on walls. And drop four stories and keep on truckin'.

Unless this opinion is not shared by the developers responible for the errata.

We are not talking about an obvious mistake or some misswriting. Every calculation in this section seems to be done in exactly the same way. And it is consistent with the description of how it is to be done. This is a bit too much consistency if the author wanted to write something else, don't you agree?

So it is to assume, that there is more then one opinion on this matter.

Where did you get this information from, anyway?

Suites cost less essence in the same way program packages cost less money. It's a flavor thing.

No matter how you calculate the reduction the suite will always cost less than the sum of its parts,

What kind of drake? Eastern, I assume?

In my mind it would be tricky justifying being able to get his feet on the peddles, his tail out of the way, and still steer.

AFAIK only leviathans can swim/dive very well.

The line developer at that time, as well as couple others.

Still having trouble seeing a leviathan in a car.

Doc Byte never said anything about driving. He mentioned diving, which is a more essential skill for a marine salvage operation than driving.

@Max
Was it forumtalk, faq or something completly different?
Thats the point. It is not unusuall, that you may get answers depending on the question.
We are not talking about a report of 20 pages, we are talking about tausends of pages written over several years by several peoples.

In this thread we disagree on the topic how two discounts interact with each other "mathematically correct".

Statement by multiple people involved on how its supposed to be handelt and what in the errata document.
And god dammit that errata was ready like 3+ years ago and we still haven't gotten it.

Oh oh. I totally missed the lack of an R there. My bad.

There might be reasons for that. Making an errata is not that easy.
So your source is forum talk ?

Essence costs should be calculated multiplicatively and not additively. This is not only the intuitive (i.e. mathematically correct, please don't ever use that to describe a system where percent modifiers are first added together) way but also by far the more game balanced way.

I don't know what any developer said or did not say but I sincerely doubt this opinion, if stated, would ever become an actual game rule since it's quite simply stupid. When reducing a value multiplicative modifiers get weaker the more of them you stack on, an inherent balancing feature. Every chargen spreadsheet and program I've seen has been multiplying the discounts as well, so yea.

Be nice, Draco18s. God forbid someone make misspellings resulting from foreign language interference.

The point is that either method (additive or multiplicative) is perfectly 'correct' and 'makes sense'; neither is "stupid", Lanlaorn. The problems result from not picking one and sticking to it across the SR rules. Additive is a little simpler (everything applies individually to the base), and this is how most vehicle mods, for example, work. (IIRC). Multiplicative is *clearly* how cyberware is written in SR4, in the rules and in the examples. This can cause unexpected results: for example, used alphaware costs exactly the same as standard grade, but has only like 0.96 essence cost. Cyberware suites also don't match the rest of the cyber rules, because their example uses the other option (which is confusing and a problem).

I think additive is probably the better choice for the game system (not 'mathematically correct', but simply preferably). It works more predictably and is simpler. However, making that change to the standard English rules is a house rule, and one that should be made clear to any players well ahead of time.

I think I'm going to ask Cyberpsyco Charlie for his answer on this question, Charlie?

"Metal is better. Metal is better. Metal is better. METAL IS BETTER!!! IT MUST BE METAL OR IT IS ONLY MEAT!!! MEAT TO BE CONSUMED!!!"

And now he goes for a nice Narcojet nap.

And now he goes...

And now...

Help?

Actually no the Cyberware suites use the same (multiplicative) model. The game is 100% consistent on which you should use and I don't know where this contradicting opinion comes from. With regards to which is simpler, well IMO multiplying is just intuitively obvious so it's far more complicated (for me) to first add up all the multipliers.

And honestly this is how things work in real life too. If the store has a half off sale and in addition you have a coupon for 50% off they are not going to give you the thing for free. You're going to be paying 25% of the base. Similarly the sales tax will be multiplied against the discounted price, if it was additive you would pay the tax of the full, original price.

Yes, they both are perfectly reasonable and logical. It may well be that one version is more 'intuitively obvious' to you.

Damage doubled doubled doubled = Damage * 4.

@Yerameyahu
Sorry, this is just not true.
Adding up multipliers is not in line with the rules of mathematics.

That is a meaningless falsehood, Irion. Both are perfectly mathematical. It's not adding 'multipliers', but 'modifiers'.

The table in the core book(303) also speaks of essence cost and cost multipliers.

So, you are adding multipliers.


Yes, and if you do it the other way round:
Essence: 1
Money: 1+1-0.5= 1.5
Thats not a better option.