Hehe, yes, it does sound ridiculous when you use a straw man. The point is not that the rules *are* to add multipliers. The point is that the rules *could* be rewritten to use additive modifiers.

I thought I made that clear above, but I don't mind repeating it, and again: SR4 clearly uses multipliers, but that doesn't mean a system of additive modifiers is 'stupid', 'mathematically incorrect', etc.

While the values would probably be tweaked, it's not a necessarily bad deal to pay extra for used alphaware, even without an essence reduction. Alphaware is a little stealthier, a little higher Device rating, etc.

Yea that's a nice example to drop on anyone trying to squeeze out a bit more essence through "creative" math "We could say 200% * 200% * 200% * 200% = 1600% damage or I could interpret this as 4 seperate +100% modifiers that I add together for +400%, which sounds more logical?".

Yerameyahu I fully admit that in terms of games rules the procedure for determining essence could be defined in any whimsical way. I'm just arguing that there's one way that should be everyone's first assumption, which all the book examples use anyway and, entirely by coincidence I'm sure, assuming the other way gives you a greater essence savings.

Indeed, the RAW is certainly multiplying multipliers. I just feel it's important not to dismiss things (in this case, house rule suggestions) as stupid or vaguely 'incorrect'.

Well, he might drive a sub, but generally the ability to breath water's a nice thing under water.

Don't be so sure. If you think air pollution is bad, think about what gets dumped into water!

No, if you use the method of adding the modifiers together(which is used in pretty much every other part of the rules too, ie. the mentioned vehicle modifications and iniation/submersion cost reductions) it becomes
Essence modifier +20%-20%= 0%
Money modifiers -50%+50%= 0%

I think it just boils down to using common sense, in a situation with prices and discounts multiplicative modifiers should be the first assumption. If we were talking about a game where you had a 5% chance to crit and some effect "increased your chance to crit by 1%" then I think we would all agree that it's additive 5%+1% = 6% simply because 5% *1.01 = 5.05% would be absurd.

It could go either way completely by develoer fiat but IMHO it's generally fairly clear which makes more sense.

@Mäx

A Datajack costs 500:nuyen:
A Datajack alpha costs 1000
So the money "modifier" is:
a) +50%
b) +100%
c) +23.1%

Definedly c, I'm sure of this

I dont know what i was thinking, but acutually i do think thats much better option then the one where you get your ware at lower essence cost for same price and also get all the side benefits of it being alpha grade.

Well, I do not have a problem with that, because:
1. It would be harder to get and might come with some serious downside. (The guy it was taken from might not be alive, anymore)
2. It is not that much of a big deal.
3. Quality should stay quality, even if second hand.

Used alpha has slower availebility then standart grade, so im not sure what your talking about.

Getting back to somewhat on the original topic... I thought there was a way for a person to upgrade their cyberware and only pay the diff in essence (monetary costs not taking into account as that is usually during gameplay between the player and GM).

So... from what I have read of this thread... Adepts can get more and more powerful as well as get more and better powers than a mundane who gets cybered up?

It's been a while since I've played and have only recently gotten back into SR with the new 4th edition and game group.

Huh what?
No.
When you take out your standard grade 1 Essence ware and put in an alphaware version at 0.8 Essence, you still have a 0.2 Essence "hole" you can use to add more ware without actually taking an Essence hit.

Upgrading ware doesn't cost more Essence, specifically.

In the (pretty long) long run, yes.

You generally can't 'upgrade' 'ware in that way (that is, pay the difference in *nuyen*). You have to replace it. Because you're almost certainly refilling the 'essence hole' from the replaced 'ware, you effectively *are* paying just the difference in essence.

However, if you replace something with a higher grade version, you might actually have essence left over. You don't get that back; instead, you get an 'essence hole' that you can use for other 'ware.

Draco18s, it certainly could. If he upgraded from Muscles 1 to Muscles 3, it would be more essence. It depends on the exact nature of the upgrade.

Yes, in that sense, you are paying the "Essence Difference."

By the way, Saint Hollow, the SR Missions rules for upgrade-by-replacing 'ware is you get 30% Nuyen 'trade-in' on the old unit. Not great, but better than a kick in the teeth.

So then, if I was a Street Samurai who had Wired Reflexes 1 (regular essence cost: 2). During a few sessions, I earned enough nuyen to upgrade my cyber to Wired Reflexes 3 (alpha, essence cost: 2.4)... I would pay to replace the cyberware (the 64,000 nuyen plus whatever other In-Game costs for it), and my character would lose an additional .4 essence only and not 2.4 essence on top of the 2 I lost for the 1st set of wired reflexes. Correct?

Correct. To be exact after the old ware is removed he has a hole of 2 essence. his hole is first filled with new ware and any additional essence is deducted afterwards. According to the german translation of Augmentation and gossip about errata you can even fill a whole made by one type of ware by another. So you do not have to decide beforehand if you want to be a Bio- or Cybersam.
Removed ware can be sold like any other loot.

In previous editions (at least SR3), the essence holes were pretty strict. I'm honestly not positive how they work in SR4, but *my* group basically just makes them fluid.

Under what may be a house rule for us, any 'essence holes' simply add together (a 2.0 essence hole from one removed unit and a 0.5 hole from another unit can be used for a single new 2.5 essence item). You just can't ever get back essence after you spend it, but you never 'lose' any from slicing the piece too small. I'm not sure if this is how SR4 works in the rules; I'm just saying that this is what we do. It's simpler and less punitive to the players, and really people don't change their 'ware very often anyway.

that's exactly the way it is. Only in the unerrataed english Augmentation there are two holes, one for cyberware one for bioware.

Cool. In the SR3 rules, I could have sworn you had to fit things *into* the individual holes left by different items, without overflowing the edges. After a few surgeries, you could quickly get tiny slices of essence that nothing fit in (not to mention the complicated 'surgery options' rules).

Ah... good. Thanks. So... if it is possible to do such, then shouldn't the Street Samurai continue to be as effective as an adept in terms of powers and combat ability? Both the Adept and Samurai pay the same Karma to improve attributes. Both the Adept and Samurai pay the same Karma to improve skills. The Adept has to improve Magic to get more points to buy more powers (I am unsure how they improve powers, like the wired reflexes example I posted above). The Street Samurai simply has to pay more nuyen to get better gear that has cheaper essence cost. I would think there's only so many toys/gear/cyber/tech a Street Samurai would want. Reaction enhancing stuff (wired reflexes, synaptic boosters), some eyes/ears to improve perception or over-come visibility issues (thermo/lowlight/etc), physical boosters (muscle replace/toner, ortho/dermal,bone stuff). Anything else would be unneeded icing on a cake. For the Adept, improving magic is the same for an attribute (a hefty Karma cost) and then the process of learning/improving the ability. You can't throw away bought powers (can you?), so every choice the adept makes, he/she must keep those powers. You can't get a refund, but the Samurai can, as he/she can replace the cyber for something else, as long as the essence costs are met.

Again... I am new, so I could be wrong (and most likely am).

Well, that's the discussion that's been taking place.

One issue is that the Sam needs *tons* of money to advance after a certain point, and the returns are steeply diminishing. The 'few' items you talk about a Sam wanting can easily cost 10 million Nuyen (and no, there's never 'unneeded icing' ). On the other hand, 'ware indeed is very strong very early, *and* has a wide variety of flexible options.

The Adept does need to avoid choosing stupidly, but let's agree that's a non-issue. (Side note: the question of improving Powers has come up before; honestly, I think most GMs let them pay the difference.) Another point made earlier is that the Adept has the option of getting 'ware, but the Sam can't get Powers; this is a key issue. Also, be aware that Magic doesn't *have* to be increased for more Powers; typically, the rule is used that Initiation (very cheap on Karma, relatively) lets Adepts gain a Power Point (instead of Metamagic).

But, yes, you're right on target with the rest of the thread in that the comparison is not cut-and-dried, especially without considering the short, medium, and long time frames of play.

OK, stupid, newb question... if you lose essence, you lose a point of Magic. Magic is a bought attribute, so you could have a Magic of 3, 4, or 5. Everyone has 6 Essence. If I am an Adept with Magic: 5, and Essence: 6. I get some cyber/bio. Now my essence is 5.7 or something. Don't I lose 1 point of Magic? Even though my Magic is only a 5, that was the amount I started with.

You lose both current and maximum Magic. In your example, you had 5/6, you take some cyber and you fall down to 4/5. In both cases you may buy the remaining point with karma later.

Yup. If you do Magic *and* 'Ware, you do have to 'buy up' you Magic as you burn through your Essence. You lose a point of Magic for each full or partial point of Essence loss. Initiation lets you raise your effective Magic as it goes down; theoretically, you can 'spend' 5 Essence and still have a usably-high effective Magic. This *does* get Karma-expensive, but I think most players find it very worthwhile, at least for 1-2 points of 'ware. Possibly more for a Mystic Adept (cybereyes for spellcasting, Pain Editor or Trauma Damper for drain, etc.).

Well, it aint very Karma-expensive, if you do not use houserules.

Lets put it like that:
Lets assume Karmagen.
We start with magic 3 and buy some ware, so magic is down to one.
During game we raise to two and buy ware back to one etc.

You will start with dirt cheap ware. Second hand muscle toner or even a muscle replacement. May be a wired reflex one.
Once you hit essence 2 or 3 you start buying up initiations and magic.
From now to then you start filling out essence holes.

This way you only fall 30 to 50 Karma behind the Sam. Thats one skillgroup to 4. (Or two attributs from 4 to 5.)
So if ruled like that, the sam is left behind very soon. 50 Karma are not able to substitude one powerpoint.
A pure adept or a pure sam will kick your ass for a time, true.
But you will put the pure adept in his place very soon and the sam will follow. (And we are not talking some dices, we are talking "does not stand a chance".)
Thats why most beople dislike this RAW.
Thats why the cyberadept is seen as so unfair. Because for some Karma you get both worlds. And raising attributes from 5 to 6 or even from 9 to 10 is much to expensive, raising low magic and initiation ratings (to 4 or 5) is an extremly good deal.
But it like that: To raise agility from 5 to 6 gives you one point on any attack.
But for the same amount of Karma you could raise magic from 1 to 3.

Well, you're spending a lot of time with a very low Magic, but yes.

So well, you are a sam.
Thats not such a bad thing.
(A sam who is able to pick some very abusive stuff)
(If you do it with latent awakening you do not even lose any karma.)

Yeah. That one's especially abusive. You almost want to use the rules that, if your essence was lowered, you lose the Latent. (Some other qualities do things like this.) Only against abuse, of course.

Not quite. Augmentation has a gentherapy for regaining lost Essence. (Of course a mage regains no lost magic this way, just to mention it.)

Oh, that's true. I meant 'you can't get back essence by downgrading your ware'.

Adepts cant really get that many more dices then a sam can, for shooting stuff they can get a whopping 2 dice more then a sammy.

He *just* said that we're "not talking some dices".

yeah, continuing with we're talking "does not stand a chance"
Meaning he think cyber-adept get a whole lot better then sammy will.

Yes, but not in just dice.

I read that statement as "not just few dices, but a whole lot of them"

Well, in theory it is unlimited.
The two adept powers to ignore penalties are extremly usefull. (and translate in a lot of dices, if you want to but it like that)
Increased skill alone is around 3.
Item attunement is also around 1 to 3 dices.
Thats all stuff the sam wont be able to pick up. And if he maxes out skill and attribute, there is not much he might do.

And thats just the look at the dices, it does not take into account unique abilities.

In some cases it is "a whole lot of them." Take a look at armor and soaking. Between Mystic Armor and Dermal/Ortho a cyberadept can stack an awful lot more armor than a pure cybered character can. Source: http://www.shadowrun4.com/resources/faq.shtml#5

Additionally, while gaining attribute points through power points is not efficient, it is one of the only ways to get a solid amount of "pure" Body stat (although there are lots of options to raise "body dice" purely for soaking damage, there isn't a heck of a lot that gives you the pure stat).

In cases where the Cyberadept and pure Cyber is only "a couple dice" the Cyberadept makes up for it in other interesting perks. It's only a "couple dice" of athletics pool, but the Cyberadept can run up walls. It's only a "couple dice" of unarmed combat skill, but the Cyberadept can KO spirits and laugh it off.

It isn't necissarily that one is significantly better than the other, they both have their ups and downs. The issue is that the Cyberadept can cherrypick the best of both worlds and come out quite a ways ahead.

I don't think this argument should ever have been -- or maybe wasn't really -- about "pure" Adepts vs Cyber.

Mystic armor is pretty expencive power point wise, and its a whole lot easier for sammy to take orthoskin and some boneplacing then it is to the adept who loses magic for every essence point.

Does the houserule make skimmers something you can take in shoe format? That could definitely be entertaining. My route involved combining cyberskates, digitigrade legs, and hydraulic jacks (also handy for kicking in the 10P range... not quite as good with the hands). With alphaware that combo ran about 0.72 essence.

It would also require making skimmerdiscs run up walls.

Wait, this is typically used? And people wonder adepts get overpowered?

Adepts are not overpowered.
(Mytik adepts with the ignoring sustaining modifiers cheese might be)

What I meant was, if you throw them 1 point of powers every initiation without having them buy magic, that sounds like something that would get out of hand.

I guess you got it wrong.
They are not supposed to get a free be of magic +1. They only get to choose Powers worth of one Point for each Initiation instead of a metamagic.
This is not that bad, because ware would be, in most cases, the better choice.

To get the effects of Muscle Toner 4 (0.8 essence 32.000 ) the adept would need between 3 and 6 "Points"

double

No take a look at this streetsam with cyber legs, arms and torso with armor stats somewhere around 30.

Considering theyr getting that powerpoint instead of a metamagic, i would say its a fair trade off and one that most wont be taking on their first few iniations.

Really? Do you have a page reference for that? Seems like I completely overlooked that.