Don't try to apply statistics to the statistical anomaly that runner groups are. Otherwise between one and two out of four runners would have to be illiterate, 1/2 female, none of the runners should have any exceptional skill and so on. I'm not so sure about the percentages, but I doubt the statistical runner group could support more than one metahuman. Metavariants, surgelings and infected should be impossible. Not to forget there would be no awakened character at all.

Is this like how circa SR3 it was impossible for the SINless to survive since they couldn't have bank accounts and paper money doesn't exist? Certified credsticks are a stopgap FASAnomics fix for that glaring oversight and they don't make sense given that creating a certified credstick actually costs a percentage (fluff-wise at least).

Even given that runners are special, Awakened PCs are way too common.

No, this is like quoting the percentage for how rare it is to be very tall and claiming professional basketball teams simply cannot exist.

If being awakened gives you an advantage while shadowrunning then it shouldn't be surprising that they're frequently shadowrunners. The same is true of Technomancers. And world-class Hackers. And world-class Marksmen. And...

Did you ever see a tall, heavyweight jockey? Statistically, most jockeys in the US should be overweight.




Granted, I didn't make him too powerfull on purpose.

This concept isn't talked about enough. It seems to make sense. How come things don't work this way? If a character is heavily metalled, why does an object resistance not come into play?

I've heard that before, as well. I assume they left it out to avoid making sams invincible.

How many of those basketball players don't exist according to the government? How many of them are effectively non-entities due to not having a SSN/SIN?

World class anything unless they have a good reason to not do so should be employed by a corporation or government. There's no reason why anyone in their right mind would choose a life of crime when their skills are good enough to live a relatively luxurious life. That's especially relevant to Awakened PCs who are by all fluff standards a rare commodity.



Because the developers (and I believe this goes back to FASA) hate chrome and want it to be used as little as possible? The primary themes of cyberpunk as a genre were corporations run amok with no oversight, fractured governments, body invasion and a large disenfranchised under-class.

Emphasis added above to highlight the relevant theme. By making 'Ware a less useful or appealing option it kills one of the cyberpunk genre's core conceits.


Versus now where they can get stunbolted into a coma with virtually no risk of drain to the mage?

edit: to reply to Yeramevahu, posted after I started typing.

One of these days I'll get around to checking Alpha Omega out.

That may be true, but I don't think it applied to FASA. If you look at 1e and 2e due to the initiative system Sams were living large. When mages got around to going if anything was left they could mop it up fairly effectively, but especially in 1e the drain would hurt and hurt bad. Mages were more the utility knife than the big ass the sword with a utility knifes tools concealed in the hilt.

It's a solid and fairly scalable system. It will probably fall into the Dumpster of Obscurity™ if MSL doesn't start producing more books. It's getting about one per year and that's not enough. They really need a GM supplement and some setting books in order for the system to succeed.

I particularly like how no one strategy wins all the time, at close (indoor and urban) ranges melee, magic and SMG sized weapons are dominant. At realistic outdoor ranges melee is a non-issue and rifles are dominant. Grenades are also pleasantly expensive.

I will end my threadjacking now.

I started with SR3 so I never got to see a time where mages/adepts didn't have a dominant role. I've never seen a time where mages actually worried about drain actually.

So mages were more scalpel than thermonuclear device in the earliest FASA editions? I could get behind that.

A ghoul? Really?

What if the mission requires seduction? Or international travel? Or even just negotiation? How many people deal with a known canibalistic and highly contagious creature? Heck, Adepts can apparently even shapeshift now, can mask their auras with initiation, and can do more damage with their bare hands (smashing blow, killing hands, critical strike, penetrating strike) than a panther assault cannon.

Give a physad a commlink and an internal control rig and there's simply no role they can't fill. And that's not even taking into consideration Mystic Adepts.

Not entirely true. Yakuza and the Mob have always offered an alternative for SINless, and you forget basic barter. People can survive on a lot or very little. The only thing that ever really got me was the massive death tolls that each adventure I've read has.

Beyond that, I don't find Awakened PCs especially common. Like draws to like and a fair number of non-PC Runners (the majority in a game) are not Mages themselves. It all depends on style really. Plus, there is a problem with the statistic of Awakened individuals: it is based on those with SIN numbers, as that is a reliable survey crowd. It is difficult to get a reliable number out of SINless, so that means Magic could in fact be more common.

Still, I've heard this argument a lot. It never really jives with me. I can see where you're coming from, but I disagree a bit. I think it depends on what kind of game you decide to run more than anything.




Happy coincidence, I started a thread on this very topic not long before it appeared in this one.

http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=32356

Someone sounds bitter. I don't know about you, but my games aren't a collection of super-mages and adepts, and the cyber-tank characters *can* only be stopped by that stunbolt, chemicals, or vehicle weapons. *shrug* I like the idea of the essence/healing rule cutting both ways, but I can see possible reasons it does not.

Neither are mine. Based on dumpshock I'd guess that all pixie teams are common as they provide mechanical advantage. I've found that requiring a background story helps. Combined with GM fiat it keeps the munchier PCs at bay.

Honestly magic would be more in line with what I think SR should be if essence loss modified mana spells. Physical spells I'm fine with hitting low essence characters/mooks normally, but it doesn't make sense that something that effects life-force would effect something that's more metal than meat well. Meh, my opinion and 5���¥ will get you a cup of soykaf at SoyBucks.

I'm going to ruin the connectiveness of your flesh.
Oh, you have very little flesh.
Well, let me just nip out that there. *snip*
Hey, look at that, your arm fell off.


When you're low-essence and magic is doing damage, it doesn't take a lot of power to make it hurt: there's hardly any of you left to damage, yes, but it takes a lot less power to have the same effect.

This would make sense if you could single out the meat parts of a target, but this is impossible just as it is impossible to single out the ware.

That's not how magic seems to work, though, and it's certainly now how non-magical damage works.

Throw a giant bolt of energy at them. The metal resists (aww, not enough power...) and the flesh crisps nicely.

Singled out? No, we just throw raw energy at it, and because the flesh's integrity is already damaged, damaging it further isn't that hard.

The problem is that the flesh is just as strong, if not stronger. It only fails when Essence dips below zero. Essence doesn't necessarily measure how healthy the flesh is: Body does that.

Ahh, I see you've hit on the essence of my argument:

It is not harder to hurt someone with magic when they have low Essence in the same way that it is harder to heal them.

Maybe some individuals simply chose personal freedom over being a wage slave. And magicans tend to be highly individual people. Apart from hermetics, there's little room for other traditions. Maybe a dog security shaman, but what do you do with a voodoo priest in your corp? 2072's not our world. It's dystopian cyberpunk and I can imagine enough reasons for living in the shadows. Particularly since Shadowrunners are no ordinary criminals, but part of the establishment.

Eh, it's harder because they're a toaster. I do find a strong disconnect between those two and personally wish to see that changed to some degree.

That was an awesome pun though.



"Congratulations on becoming a Mage and having the ability to rework the world according to your will! Now do our bidding."

What if you were a corporate sponsored shadowrun team, and you got backstabbed in some political machinations.
That's a good reason not to want to work for a corp directly.

I see a black van with a red strip on the sides....

Mages in the older systems held a lot of power, but there was some balance to it. Magic was something that could be used as an equalizer, and as a surprise that gave the runners an edge, but not without its cost. With the newer systems, it seems like it became the baby of someone on the Dev team and magic became commonplace and easy. The problem with games like this, especially for developers, is resisting the urge to constantly be looking for bigger and better and shinier. In the film industry, this is typically referred to as sequel syndrome. Shadowrun fell into this trap. They already had a game that players liked, but they were constantly trying to drag in every bit of the niche market, getting sillier and sillier as they went on. Good for business? Maybe. But, then again, the game is on its third publisher...

It is no surprise why 2e seems to hold the most loyalty of all the systems.

The remake made me sad. And I wanted to like it too.

In 2064, a crack corporate security unit was sent to prison by the Corporate Court for a crime they didn't commit. These metas promptly escaped from a maximum security facility to the Seattle underground. Today, still wanted by the corporation, they survive as shadowrunners. If you have a problem, if no one else is affordable, and if you can find them, you can hire...

It's harder because they're a toaster, but at the same time its easier because they're a toaster.

Harder in that there's less flesh but easier it takes less energy to harm that flesh. It balances out to being the same energy requirement.

Imagine that a space the size of your driveway is one fire. It's going to take A LOT of water to put out that fire, but any water you do throw with your bucket makes progress.

Now, what if only a tenth of your driveway was on fire. If you throw the same amount of water out there, it'll still "hurt" the fire: some of the water will miss, but the water that does hit will do a proportionally similar amount of damage to the ability of the fire to continue burning.

Healing works differently: instead of a bucket you have a squirt gun. If you don't aim correctly at the fire, you're not doing anything at all.

Its the difference between blunt force trauma and a scalpel. If you put your hand on a toaster and smash your hand with a hammer, its going to hurt (both your hand, and the toaster). If you put a band aid on the toaster its not helping you get better.

the new one was SO pink mohawk SR

This line of reasoning doesn't hold up. At all. And you contradict yourself.

It doesn't take less energy to harm the flesh. The same amount of energy is being expended, just certain portions of it are lost not affecting the flesh. Is a lower amount of energy affecting the flesh? Sure. But that's just because a lower amount is impacting.

At the same time, compare someone who is cyberized to someone completely natural. The person with no synthetics to absorb the spell's energy are actually taking more overall energy into their bio system than someone with no modifications. So by that theory, the non-cybered person should be the easier one to damage. Everything you hit with that spells energy is damaged, instead of simply the squishy bits in between the metal and other synthetics on the cybered person.

The magical healing arguments works to an extent because instead of using magic to recreate the flesh and to theoretically stimulate regeneration of natural tissue, you're trying to stimulate compatible regrowth to the surgical enhancements.

I think the problem you'd find with granting a Sammi resistance to magic due to low Essence is that it makes sense for some kinds of spells and not so much for others.

For example it makes sense for a Sammi to be harder to stunball or mindcontrol. The physical body is vastly different from the human norm and the brain has either directly been modified or has had to adapt to all the physical changes. In SR3 the Essence loss didn't come from installing cyberware, it came from learning to use the cyberware properly, which involved vast changes in how you had to think. When you have wires crisscrossing your spine affecting every action you make your body has to relearn every single motion and you end up thinking more like a machine and less like a human. For example, with a powerful enough Encephelon system, you literally no longer think about eating, going to the bathroom, or whether you need to sneeze. A computer in your brain handles all of that and once that becomes normal for you, you're no longer thinking like a human. Mind controlling a heavily cybered individual shouldn't be that different than trying to mind control a computer or a drone because at that point they're not far away.

Conversely, I can't think of any good reason why low Essence would help you against a fireball or acid stream.

Making one convenient rule that can handle both those situations seems like it'd be pretty tough, especially with all the different spells out there.

Well, I think the point was made that indirect/'elemental manipulations' wouldn't be subject to this? That's how Object Resistance works, AFAIK (which may not be very far).

Which is partly why heal is harder, yes. I agree with Kruger.

And yes, such a resistance would only be useful against things that have to overcome object resistance.

In the end, rules like that are incredibly hard to write, so were probably much better left unwritten.

In fact, it's not really all that hard to get pretty low in Essence without even opting for obvious and/or extensive exterior replacements, or even really internal replacements. Not every sub 1 Essence character is going to be sporting cyberlimbs and dermal armor, etc.

Uhm...Aren't physical spells resisted by Body, and mana by Willpower?

Or am I in 3rd again?

No, but then I don't think they would get any modifiers for any sort of 'object resistance'. They just lost Essence.

It's mystical. I don't see a fluff problem.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately myself, so I figured I would throw my two cents in.

If we break down limitations of what a character can do with adept powers or ware, it predominantly boils down to 6 points. Essence and Magic being largely interchangeable. Over the long term the Adept can hypothetically double his magic rating, conversely the Sam can essentially double his essence through upgraded ware (and a proper mix of cyber and bio can get an awful lot of mileage out of his essence to start with). Hypothetically a "pure" adept vs a Street Sam should technically come out around even as, realistically, getting to 6 initiation grade should be just as long and difficult as getting a load of delta (your adept shouldn't just burn some karma, yell "DING!" and suddenly know more magic, just like your Sam can't just buy a Delta set of Muscle Aug off the shelf).

Where the main discrepancy lies, is in equivalency. For instance, base Wired Reflexes 2 is "worth" 3 power points (3 essence lost), equivalently a similar adept power is worth 2.5. This is before taking into account grade of the ware, level of initiation (and obviously the Bioware version is by and far the most "efficient" speaking solely in the form of Essence/Power Points).

Conversely, increasing a point of strength and a point of agility from cyber is worth a point of essence and similar increases for an adept is one and a half points (even worse! If this brings you above your natural maximum, it is worth 1.5 PER POINT!).

It seems to me that flat attribute boosts, cyberware is much more efficient than power points. Adepts get ahead in certain other perks from their abilities, usually in the forms of traits that a Samurai simply cannot match. For instance, wholesale increase of Skills, while a reflex recorder is "cheaper" in essence, it really doesn't compare to being able to toss on several points more of a skill. Magic Resistance is another perk an adept has available to him. This is why Adepts end up being better specialists and Sams better generalists. It is ridiculously expensive for a "pure" Adept to get a few point increase on an Attribute (which would help a broad spectrum of skills), however they can jack their individual skills and other abilities in ways the Sam has no way to replicate.

After a lot of comparing and conclusion I eventually came to the realization, there is no equivalency. Cleverly min-maxing cyber and bio can net a Sam quite a bit of increases at chargen with 50 points. Those 50 points are less than the Adept would spend on just raising his Magic attribute to 6. Comparing what they can or cannot do ends up with apples and oranges depending on how the two were built, however out the gate the Adept could (for example) potentially out shoot the Sam, but would suffer on other types of attack rolls compared to the Samurai's superior Agility rating.

This situation only complicates the longer the characters are around. The Adept blows a load of Karma to initiate and get a 7th point of magic (45-50 Karma, roughly 9 runs), during this time, perhaps the Samurai wants to upgrade a piece of Cyber to Alphaware. The Adept doesn't lose anything and simply gains a power point, however the Samurai loses 70-90% of his initial investment (the cost of the cyber when it was plugged into him compared to what he can fence it for) and pays even more money to have the SAME STATISTICS wedged back into him at double the cost. All this allows the Sam to do is then spend even more money to fill in the hole left by the upgrade. Think that sounds like a bum deal for the Samurai?

It isn't. The Samurai got to spend that 45-50 Karma on skills and attributes.

In conclusions "pure" Adepts and Street Samurai aren't even on the same page, and shouldn't be compared. The real issue is Adepts getting ware (Bio or Cyber) and essentially min-maxing the best parts of both. The best way I can think of to contain them without cracking down too hard is to limit initiation grade to your BASE magic level (e.g if your max magic is 3 due to essence loss, you could only initiate 3 times for a total of 6 magic).

I loved the remake and saw it twice. For my tastes it is the best movie of the year.

I'm not sure if the name "Shinobi Killfist" attached to this endorsement works for or against the movie.

I don't think that Adept are better than Street Sam, or vice versa.

I think Mages are better than both.

And I think that Adepts with 1-2 points of essence spent on bio/cyber are better than either a straight Sam or a Straight Adept.

And Worse, is a Mage who does the same thing.

Yeah I think that's generally where we're at.

Certain adept powers are awesome and unavailable any way else. Furthermore, certain adept powers stack with their limited cyber options (mystic armor). However being a "cherry picking" adept who takes the efficient stuff from adept and wedges in some bio and cyber where he can wins on all fronts.

Well, obviously they'd be MysAd.

especially with the FULL Magic Score reading of the Mys Adept rules

2 point of phys ad, 2 of spellcasting, 2 essence
and yet he can get phys ad powers as if he had a Magic of 4 (even if he only has 2 points worth)
He can assense, counter-spell etc, as if he had a 4 magic

Funnily neither of the uses are limited by magic, except counterspelling to stop a sustained spell, in which case the mystic adept only rolls 2+counterspelling. And hew only casts spells with a pool of 2+spellcasting; his maximum force is 8 though with overcasting.

@sabs

Well, actually essence is bigger issue for mages then for adepts.
Adept powers are mostly independent from Magic rating. (Yes, theit max level is up to magic, but what the hell?)
So for an adept Bioware to increase his INI-passes is better then the adept power. (1.5 Points to 4 Points)


For a mage on the other and low magic attribute comes in many forms to bite you.
Physical drain, less dices on Spellcasting, less dices for masking, less dices for summoning/binding, max level for spells to be masked, limiting your time you could stay astral, helping you to pass wards etc.

So if you rule that a mage with two essence less will always(as long as they use their Karma for the same things) stay behind two points behind in magic, then I would say, that one point is quite a good idea, but two points become critical. And 3 points will make you a much worse mage.

Lets for example take a mage with 3 Initiations and a Magic score of 8. (Why 8? Becaus two low scores will just cripple the mage using essence but I guess no player would try to get higher. Too expensive for the effect)
So you get a mage with magic 8 and one with 5.
The one with 5 will have a lot of cyber and bio. I would guess about two points of Bio and 1.5 of cyber.
So yes, he will have higher drain stats, he will have 3-4 passes, he will have any basic visionenhancement and some other gimics. Yes, he wil be superior.

But what is it, the other mage could do?
Quickening comes into the mind. He is capable to quicken and hide 3 spells at a force of 8.
Detect Enemys/Lifeforms (extended radius), Combat Sense and Increase Reflexes. (Even with the strict ruling he will get about 8 hits each and will be ableto use them)
Which means he wil be aware of Enemys half a mile away, gets 8 dices on evading and suprise test and 4 INi-passes. (Costs: 3*8=24 Karma)
These spells will be close to impossible to break. (A mage trying to break a force 8 increase reflex will have to roll against 24 dices and have a draincode of 6.
There are close to no wards with the ability to break them. Would need a Force 9 Ward to stand a Chance, which would ask for 9 Points of drain.

So yes, the cybermage will be worse in the beginning(if you are limited to force 4 or 6 spells(overcast) but he will come out ahead when he reaches a magic of 4 and he will be a top for a while. But as soon as the initiation rating reaches about 4 to 5 the pure mage can pull up some insane stunts.
I would guess it will take up to 200 Karma, so it is more a theoretical in nature but since some here seem to start with this amount I guess I should include it.
If you rule it by the book a cybermage with 3 points of ware will soon be just 1 point behind. So he is alway superior.

I don't know, i have in many builds ended up making the character a adept, spesifically for the level 2 INI boost.

The 4A initiative boost 2 is better than flat out Wired 2. However this is where it loses it's lead. Every other form of initiative pass granting 'ware (from Alpha Wired Reflexes on up) is more efficient point for point. Synaptic Booster is criminally good for the essence cost. Hell if you've got the cash for higher grades and can juggle your Cyber and Bio well enough Move By Wire provides passes, 2x the reaction, a point of dodge per level, and skillwires. Not to mention MBW will be nigh-guaranteed to cut the cost of your Bioware in half. With the right build up it is a phenomenal deal (even getting the Adapsin to drop just that ONE piece of Cyber by 10% will more than pay for itself in essence).

Some of the Adept powers are extremely competitively priced. Some of them are flat out unique. However a few of them are simply asinine. .75 power points for one measly attribute point? 1.5 if it goes above your natural maximum? That is insane! A whole point to be able to run a few meters on a vertical surface? Granted you can't really do it any other way, but why so ridiculously expensive?

I don't think Adept > 'Ware because of a few of these power point pricing schemes, but a well planned Cyber Adept is ludicrous. Not to mention, while the awakend beg the GM for Karma and the Sams beg for cash, a 'ware using Adept is happy and advancing well no matter what he gets.

Well, what I said is for the theory.
If you evere going to get the money in order to get an synaptic booster rating 2 (I guess 160.000) is an other questions and dependent on the group you play in.
(While Chargen it would cost about 32 BP. Due to the magic loss even more expensive for adepts(32BP+1 point of Magic).